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Nav/GPS is very nice, perhaps make it an installable block

Discussion in 'Suggestions and Feedback' started by FCR, Jan 23, 2015.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. FCR Trainee Engineer

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    Once again, thanks for the great game, I enjoy seeing it evolve in really useful ways!

    I just tried out the new GPS feature and thats going to be REALLY handy for deep space exploration.

    I was just thinking, it might be a nice feature to have it as a block rather than simply always there. Being a block it would also 'store' the data with it. So protecting it on long missions would be very important and add a nice 'lost in space' possibility.

    I wouldn't get too crazy with implementation, simply a static block. If its present, then the GPS tab is enabled, if not, the tab is disabled.

    Just a thought.

    Thanks again for a great game,
    -FRC
     
  2. Killacyte Senior Engineer

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    1,659
    I think the suit should have it's own gps. However, I like the block idea, and the seperate blocks can add their own sets of waypoints and info to the hud, depending on if they are on or off.
     
  3. bladedpenguin Apprentice Engineer

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    207
    Suit should have it's own gps, and it updates with any friendly functioning navicomputer in comm range. If you die without a navicomputer, you lose all your waypoints. If damaged, the navicomputer loses random waypoints in proportion to how many computer components you will have to replace. Of course, if you don't get dead, you can immediately restore from your suit seamlessly, when repaired. If you have a friendly backup navicomputer, it restores from that when repaired.

    Highly specific systems damage is always freakin' hilarous. Specifically, flitting about in a tagger trying to fill in the missing points in your nav constellation from memory because some jerk took a potshot at your bridge sounds like an interesting challenge, as well as another incentive not to get shot.
     
  4. Morbophobie Apprentice Engineer

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    145
    You can't "have your own GPS". What do you think how real GPS works?

    You need essentially 4 known positions to have a reference. That are the satellites for. (You only need 3 for the surface of the earth since you don't want the position in space but the position on a surface - that's easier)
    [​IMG]
    Nicked the image (looked up for it on google - hope the owner doesn't mind - I am just too lazy to draw some circles)

    So basically you would have to build 4 beacons to use the GPS and if someone moves one beacon or destroys one - your waypoints stop to work or point at the wrong position (if you move the beacon)
    That would make it more realistic, would add the engineering part again, but you don't need tons of beacons and still can hide something...

    So a waypoint is basically 4 numbers - each number is the distance to a point of reference. You now have to select the point of reference for the numbers (you can have a autofill if you use the same beacons all the time). So X1 is beacon A, X2 is beacon B, X3 is Beacon C and X4 is Beacon D.

    Simple as that. It obviously only works if you are within the range of the beacons.

    EDIT: If you don't understand how it works. A little experiment. Draw a point (P) on a piece of paper, draw 3 additional points on the paper (X1,X2,X3). Now measure the distance from P to X1, from P to X2 and from P to X3. Write the results down. erase the point P. Make a circle around X1 with the radius = the distance from X1 to P. Make a circle around X2 with the radius = the distance form X2 to P, continue on with X3. Now these circles will subtend at one point. That's your Point (P). And that's how locating a point with 3 coordinates for 3 points of reference work on a surface. IF you want to do that 3D you need 4 coordinates or you will have 2 possible points like you have if you only make two circles on a surface./Edit

    Another thing: Why don't you make beacons and antennas one module? A beacon is basically a antenna always broadcasting the time. (Time traveled * velocity of the singnal is the distance)
    So you would only see Antennas if they are broadcasting. Enemys only see the direction.
    Antennas are broadcasting...
    - if they are set to broadcast the time (as a beacon) - if you can read what the antenna is broadcasting you know the time at which it sent the signal and hence how far it is away. So if you own the antenna (shared with you) you know the distance and the direction.
    - if you use them to remote control a drone (the antenna on the drone also always broadcasts since it broadcasts a livestream of its cameras) - You can only see the direction.
    - if you use the antenna to relay something - or to broadcast a text chat. (only direction)

    Simple as that - Not everyone can read the content since it is encrypted but everyone can see the direction it is coming from.
    So for stealth you need to don't broadcast anything - and actually sit in the ship.

    Got a little off-topic.
    But the communication system really should get updated. How do you want it to be at the end? Global messages and GPS without detection of the origin - or a little more realistic? You said you want a realistic game - that's why I bother to write this text.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 23, 2015
  5. Killacyte Senior Engineer

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    1,659
    ...I don't care at all how GPS works. I doubt it will be realistically implemented in-game, not that I would hate it if it was. But you also missed my point. I want the suit to have it's own memory of waypoints you've set. Blocks would have their own memory of their own waypoints. You turn off the block, the waypoints it was showing disappear from the hud. Simple.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 23, 2015
  6. Morbophobie Apprentice Engineer

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    145
    Well but it COULD work that way in the game - and since the developer stated they want to keep it realistic ist would be cool if it worked that way. "I don't care at all how GPS works" - well sorry for that, but ignorance isn't a good thing most of the time and for sure not a criterion that matters. And of course you could add that layer that you can loose your coordinates. But it is really easy to store 4 numbers. So your medical facility could store it if it can store your DNA. So you would only lose it if you spawn in a yellow ship. But still - if you lose your point of reference your numbers aren't worth anything - and that's way more likely.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 23, 2015
  7. exor Trainee Engineer

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    27
    I like the idea of Morbophobie..
    Have only a Beacantenna.. Antena plus Beacon which are working as well as a GPS System (for of them)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 23, 2015
  8. Killacyte Senior Engineer

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    1,659
    I'd like to point out that I edited my post to make it a bit more meaningful. I don't care how GPS works (I understand the basics of it), because it is inapplicable to the game. What we have is not actually GPS, and doesn't use references to figure out where you are. Anyways, you misunderstood what I meant with "suits have their own GPS" which I believe I cleared up.

    As for the SUGGESTION that we get realistic GPS, again, it wouldn't bother me.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 23, 2015
  9. Captain_Brian Apprentice Engineer

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    253
    I haven't used the GPS feature yet, how is it any different than a Beacon, other than no range limitations or power/block requirements?
     
  10. Morbophobie Apprentice Engineer

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    GPS:
    - unlimited range
    - not an object - safe from destruction, requires power
    - can't be seen by other players
    - gives an unlimited amount of exact positions - while a beacon only gives the position of itself

    So basically the GPS is in every aspect better than the Beacon - so why would anyone use a beacon instead of a waypoint? There is only one thing:
    - Objects that move - the beacon moves with it, the waypoint doesn't. But that can be an advantage too...
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 23, 2015
  11. Morilibus Apprentice Engineer

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    199
    +1 Morbophobie
    I like the idea of having to build the "GPS" system before you can navigate around easily with it. I like the idea of getting lost in space, but also being able to navigate it. I think by having to set up some reference points is a nice simple way of doing it. This would still make early game a little sketchy where you don't want to stray too far from your ship in fear of getting lost. But still allow you to navigate around once you've gotten established.
    I could see this being of benefit maybe on faction servers too(I don't play PVP)? That could be a way to disrupt the other faction, by taking out there reference nodes and bringing down their navigation system.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 23, 2015
  12. Derwan Apprentice Engineer

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    182
    ...so basically the same as a beacon?
     
  13. Morbophobie Apprentice Engineer

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    Sorry didn't get what you mean by that
     
  14. bladedpenguin Apprentice Engineer

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    I like the idea of setting up (at least) 4 beacons that anyone can use for their GPS receiver.... but I think the one thing that terrestrial GPS is missing that is far too plentiful in space. Stars. You use stars for orientation, then the arcwidth of the sun for it's distance, and the position of the sun against background stars for your direction from the sun, and you have enough for position. If you go underground, you can use an inertial compass and resync when you can see a portion of the sky again.

    I think it's more interesting in game terms to have a GPS receiver block, which stores waypoints and determines your position, which is, I believe, what was originally suggested.

    Building and maintaining a constellation of navigation beacons for a GPS receiver to use is definitely a task worthy of a space engineer though. It would be cool to see a mission where you have to do this in a certain amount of time.
     
  15. FCR Trainee Engineer

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    21
    Wow, I am surprised to see all the interest in making a Nav/GPS block! It just seemed logical to me to have it separated out. Maybe after that we can see a half-height 'Space Chart Block' that would show you a nice little chart just like real warships have. Would be cool I think eventually.

    For the sake of the discussion, I'd like to add that I do understand the workings of modern GPS systems to some degree, and I wouldn't complain too much about having more realism in the game, but I wouldn't recommend it to the developers right now because its a game that's probably meant to be fun first, and realistic second.

    I mean who really actually wants to bang a hammer on an asteroid for months to get enough material to make a ship (because thats probably how long it would take) if you want to be realistic about it.... and then it would be made of space rock.. which probably has the tensile strength of crumb cake.
    ... I rant, sry about that.

    Thanks again,
    -FRC
     
  16. MegaMiner Junior Engineer

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    625
    I'm hoping they will bring back the simple autopilot block. It's in the files, just needs the code behind it. That said, there are scripts that do the same thing.
     
  17. FCR Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    21
    I like the idea of having waypoints stored in the suit, perhaps limited to 5 or 10 or something like that whereas the ship GPS Computer block might store 100s or more. That would be a great feature for players that have multiple permanent assets on a given server. Sometimes you might be borrowing someone else's ship or just be in your suit and need to get to your awesomeness, how nice would it be if you have a few waypoints stored.

    I actually suggested the Autopilot as well (Im not the first of course), I thought it would be appropriate to combine it with the GPS into a single block, see below:

    http://forums.keenswh.com/post/newedited-blocks-basiccombatadvaned-ships-computer-and-more-7270934?pid=1285969674#post1285969674

    I like it,
    -FCR
     
  18. JackedUp Trainee Engineer

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    18
    I think the GPS system needs two Vital things; ability to automatically share with your faction and a way to group them (Asteroids, Bases, etc.)

    When I begin to contemplate about sharing GPS within the faction, I see how comms are done, so a GPS (or even Navigation) block could be necessary to retain the game play style previously established. In fact, it would have to be that way since you wouldn't want players exploiting the unlimited range and no requirements of GPS by sending messages to each other in the form of GPS descriptions.

    A navigation block would in essence make the beacon obsolete, but also more useful, considering an antenna can already transmit somewhat like a beacon. The proposed GPS/Navigation block would:

    • Broadcast/transmit (with or without a receiving antenna is debatable) its location
    • Automatically steer a ship towards a selected GPS point
    • Receive and transmit all GPS points that are faction shared
    • Sort GPS points by distance
    • Require power
    • Require antennas to transmit/receive to players, but not to Nav block themselves?
    • Act as a peer-to-peer storage system for all GPS points. If one Nav block is destroyed, then the remaining block(s) transmit the coords between each other and to suits, but if the last one is destroyed.......
    As far as an enemy hacking the block and obtaining coords, I think this is a clever idea, but could get out of hand easily. Wether or not it should be implemented would (in my opinion) be determined on how a hacked text panel currently operates, which I do not know. Can you hack a text panel and retrieve all of its stored values? If not, then neither should this happen with GPS blocks. But if so, then there should be a component cost (like computers, power cells, or radio-comm components) for hacking, or better yet, the chances of successful data extraction are slim at best.

    After reading the post about how several points are rewuired for accurate GPS, I dont think it would be wise to require several distanced block in order to have a functioning GPS, but maybe only one block gives a general location (5-10K margin) and each additional block that is shared with the faction increases the accuracy.
     
  19. Urenic Trainee Engineer

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    69
    the devs can make this really easy for themselves and just use the programmable block. They would have to provide the coding, so they could set it up like the projector and pick the code from a list of scripts from the work shop.
     
  20. Code Name D Apprentice Engineer

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    145
    Okay, the suit idea has merit. Actually, I would go even further and say that coordinates are saved on the system that they were made from. So if you are flying around in the Red ship, then jump to the blue ship, the blue ship will not automatically have the coordinates you recorded in the red ship. You have to copy them to a new network.
    You should also be able to store coordinates on a medium of some kind, like a program disk. You have to load the disk to have access to the coordinates. Or you can take the disk with you, taking the coordinates with you as well and wiping them from the main frame. Say if you are on a spy mission, collecting coordinates for long range artillery. (Basically you are painting targets.) When you get boarded, you move the offending coordinates to a disk and store it in a secret location. You then can play Princess Laya and pretend you have no idea what the guy is talking about, fording them to tare the ship apart until the coordinates are found.
    I also like the idea of forcing the player to add some investment into the system to get a functional GPS. For creative, no problem. But for survival, a GPS system should involve some cost and maintenance.
    This could be a use for the bacons. You need four bacons placed in station mode for full GPS. And they should have some requirements for being placed. The further apart they are – the more area you will have a functional GPS system. To get a position, you need all four bacons to be at least one degree apart from each other according to your point of view. To get a functional system out further, you need more bacons to be placed further out.
    This also means you have to keep them equipped with power. Solar panels would make a lot of sense here as you don’t need to keep it supplied with uranium.
    I am also thinking that another block, a nav-com system would be cool. The nav-com could come in large and small variants. This block doesn’t just give you GPS but works like an auto pilot of sorts. You can tell it to head off in a certain direction at a certain velocity and it will take control over the thrusters and gyros to make it happen. You can also give it specific coordinates, or just the name of a set of coordinates. “Take us to Kirk’s Asteroid, 1/2 power.” If you have a point called “Kirk’s Asteroid,” all you have to do is select it and you’re off. It will take the ship to those coordinates and once you get there bring the ship to a stop and restore station keeping.
     
  21. LorenLuke Trainee Engineer

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    23
    I like the idea of having some sort of block feeding back local/absolute coordinate data as output vars enabling some sort of INS/GPS guidance for either base waypoints, or even ordinance guidance.
     
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