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Neutral trade space stations

Discussion in 'Suggestions and Feedback' started by Razul Antiwield, May 6, 2015.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Galaxian Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    191
    I hope people understand that with the way this game works, there's literally no incentive to use currency, and one way or another someone will HAVE to ship the materials at some point.
    Dumb it down too much to where hauling is obsolete and you actually are killing the entire point of piracy, freighters, and the escorts for said freighters. Hard to be a pirate if everyone can bypass any possibility of you raiding them except by a base siege.
    If you have to ship the materials anyway...why not call ahead using the inevitable comms network or the global chat to what will be offered in exchange? Seriously, things like platinum and thruster components would obsolete currency immediately because they're inevitably going to be more valuable, ESPECIALLY in early game.

    Currency in small economies is based on something with actual VALUE, be it gold, silver, or whatever the hell material. Why waste time using a valueless currency when you can have it over quick and easy with one freighter shipment?

    EDIT: Have to note. I said small economies because things like developed countries such as the US...our currency has value because we believe it has value. If memory serves, we're no longer on the gold standard, meaning in a literal sense, we're living off a worthless currency that floats off the fact it has BEEN standard for a long time
     
  2. Harrekin Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,077
    Multiplayer server, go to player built trade station, buy stuff, haul back.

    You could also be that guy selling stuff, or the guy mining to supply him, or the guy who builds ships for sale who needs to buy materials...

    Lots of hauling still happening, opportunities for piracy.

    Whats the point in even trading materials for something that isn't currency?

    Wouldn't the logical thing in that situation be to just make what you need yourself out of said materials and cut out the traders profit?
     
  3. GravelProducer Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    99
    Because you need that "something that isn't currency"? Or because you know a player that needs the "something that isn't currency" and will give you a lot of what you want if you get your hands on it and transport it to him?

    Actually, that "something that isn't currency" is likely to be more worth than currency in the game - as "something that isn't currency" has obvious practical uses in the game, while currency don't....
     
  4. Levits Senior Engineer

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    2,122
    As I've said before, the only way that currency works is for an NPC entity that specifically operates on that one form of currency. As individual players in a game where material is very easily obtained and distributed, there is no need nor any possible way to enforce that players will use a standardized currency. However, the moment you have one group (be they an NPC Faction or a large player-owned faction) that only operates solely based upon a set currency, that is when others wishing to do business with them will adopt a currency system.

    Among individual players, bartering is the best and most efficient means of trade. With Bartering, you have two people. One says that they need X amount of material and will give X amount of material for it. That is where it starts. You talk over the exchange rate and then you make the exchange. Deal Done.

    If you bring currency into it: Now you have a player with X amount of currency Representing that they have X amount of material that they are willing to trade for X amount of material. There is the entire possibility that their Currency has no material backing what so ever. Now, the person seeking to trade with this currency want to purchase something from another player. However, that player does not deal with either that currency or that player that you received the currency from and has no need for it. The only person you can exchange with is the initial person that you obtained the currency from. Which now brings you back to needing to travel to them and obtain that material.

    Currency requires an honored and stable platform to be of any value. Among various players, it is literally next to useless in a game based on tangible material transfer. NPC Space Stations that support or operates on a set currency, I say it's a Great Idea. Player run factions or groups that accept and establish a form of in-game currency, sure why not. But it will be up to the players themselves whether or not they adopt this system of trade because the currency that they are trading holds no real value unless someone gives it value.
     
  5. Harrekin Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,077
    Boring and no one will do it.

    If you wanted a material, why would you trade another material for it instead of just mining it?

    Also why would you trade one material for components when you have an assembler that can make stuff instantly?
     
  6. GravelProducer Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    99
    - Because you just exploited a huge vein of nickel, filling your containers with nickel ingots - and you have no cobalt
    - Because mining and refining platinium takes more time than you would like to spend.
    - Because there is not much magnesium in the asteroids you control.
    - Because you sold your miner for a trade ship.

    - Because you want thrust components and lack platinium.
    - Because you need a large amount of construction components.
     
  7. toxi Apprentice Engineer

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    390
    and there are ppl who dont see that they are in an alpha. alpha means that you put something inside, try it and if it fails (thats an option!) you trow it out. see ladders .. they put them in, see that this is not such an good idea and transformed the block to the passage .. and how ppl screamt about it ("but we need it so baaadly") .. but listen .. do you hear that? nobody wants ladders anymore.

    its alpha, its testing ... its not about implementing stuff that is needed, but implement stuff someone might do something with.

    if there is one thing to learn from progress than its that 80% of ppl dont know what they want ;)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. CruentaUltio Apprentice Engineer

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    229
    Saying that currency has no value is true.
    However, currency helps creating a value for items.
    It makes it easier to find out what an item is worth.
    How can you determine if something is worth a stone or an apple?
     
  9. GravelProducer Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    99
    Prices are determined by what the individual players are willing to put into the transaction. This will depend on how much they need the items and if they can get the items easily in other ways...

    If you are selling the apple to someone who is hungry and there is no other food in the area, you will get a good price. If you try to sell the apple in the middle of an orchard in harvesting season, you cannot expect getting much...
     
  10. Orange_Slime_ Junior Engineer

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    560
    The whole reason currency works IRL, is the fact that it's annoying for people to have to haul items around to trade with people to get, say, a cup of coffee. in space engineers, is it really that difficult to carry a large amount of material around? no, it's not, you don't need to have an item that is worth whatever might have been agreed upon, if anything, to go buy your space-coffee.
     
  11. Harrekin Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,077
    The reason modern currency came about was because people originally used gold and silver coin to pay for items.

    Eventually people started offering storage for your gold and issued "bearer instrument" certificates that would be redeemable for the aforementioned gold.

    Yet people here are trying to make it seem like 70 years from now we'd have regressed to carrying items for barter...

    I ask again, if someone is offering a ship to barter for the materials required to make the ship + profit...why would you even bother?

    You'd already have the materials necessary to make the ship...
     
  12. GravelProducer Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    99
    Because you don't want to spend the time building the ship.

    And of course, the payment isn't necessarily in the exact same materials as needed for building the ship - it can be anything the seller think is worth the material and work cost. So even if you don't have the resources to build the ship yourself, you can still get the ship if you have enough of other materials.
     
  13. Orange_Slime_ Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    560
    The reason we moved from gold is, well, gold is really f*cking heavy. In space engineers, it's just as easy to store your stuff in a station as it is on a ship. For the equivalent of the cerificates, who would you go to to redeem them? How would this currency be made? who would control the flow of it? The reason this won't work, is that if you only have a server of ten or a few more, if 5 get together and call the currency useless, half the economy ceases to exist. there is no guarantor of the worth of the currency in the server.
     
  14. Harrekin Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,077
    Im not saying we need certificates, I'm saying humans abandoned using metals, etc for trade a long time ago for a more fungible and universally acceptable paper format backed by physical metals.

    Fiat currency is more likely what we'd get in game, it derives its value from it's acceptability by merchants/people and in most cases was once backed by a metallic standard.
     
  15. Levits Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,122
    You're talking about a massive group of people in a rather small area where access and logistics were easily covered by horse-drawn carriages and where the trade routes were easily accessed and constantly in use. In the game, you neither have constantly supplied trade lines nor do you have a massive market where everyone can gather. All trade is done via a TRUST system. There is no reason for anyone to trade potentially useless digital numbers for solid material if you cannot trust the person or group that gives you those digital numbers in the first place. This again, is the same thing that happened when people used salt as currency. It was all well and good until someone somewhere said that salt was worthless and those with the massive stockpiles of salt (who were considered rich) were now broke.

    Currency only works if you have a mutual agreement among others to honor that currency. This can be done with NPC's but if you do not want that, the question that must then be answered is this:

    How do you FORCE players to honor a specific currency system? And what benefits does it have?

    Benefit- You need not transport or carry material with you. (It can be easily sent from one place to another / from one person to another.)
    Benefit- Can be backed by various materials. (It can set a standard for material worth.)
    Negative- Currency holds no real value. (What can you do with currency in your possession?)
    Negative- May not be honored by other players. (Why would someone, who needs Iron, want to trade with someone who uses digital currency when all they need is the material?)
    Negative- Players would still have to travel to pick up material at some point. (Why make a trade with currency when you still need the material on hand to actually make a trade?)
    Negative- Currency value can fluctuate greatly and among various materials. (What keeps this currency from suddenly switching from Gold as the base value to Iron?)
    Negative- Requires a system for creating and distributing this currency. (who gets this money first and/or where does it come from?)
     
  16. Sims_doc Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    876
    If a currency is added there is nothing saying you have to use it, however the same can be said for materials based trading.

    If it allows you to buy things from other players and possibly NPCs people will give it a value.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. Levits Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,122
    The reason why you would trade is specifically for the purpose of trading materials. Why trade a worthless amount of anything for something that has potential value?

    Working Scenario: You go to a group and trade material. That group gives you currency back in exchange. Later, you return to said group and exchange that currency back to them for material. <the Variables regarding that currency works specifically off of that one groups willingness to honor that currency. Among a dedicated group, it works. Among NPC's it works. As long as those groups choose to honor it.

    Working Scenario: You have a group of players. An individual of that group is supporting that group to build a ship for his/her self. They agree to work for a set amount of time/effort in exchange for currency. When enough currency has been attained, that player trades in this currency back to the group in exchange for said ship or materials. <Again, mutual agreement to honor and use this currency. However, as with the first, what's to keep that group from simply and immediately choose not to honor that currency?

    Non-working Scenario: You intend to use your currency to purchase material. That group requires iron; you only have currency on hand. You now either have to return to your base to attain this iron or have the group looking to buy it go and pick it up. <This adds an unwanted part to what would have been a far simpler concept.

    Non-working Scenario: You intend to give a player currency for material. That player does not want nor have use for that currency or that player does not trust nor deal with the group that uses that currency. < With this, you effectively reach an impasse where only the required material matters and nothing more.

    NPC factions or trade stations makes plenty of sense for currency to be in the game. Call it an Imperial Standard or something and the NPC factions are that Empire. As individual players, currency without a dedicated backing has no way of getting off the ground. Not to mention, where do you get this currency to begin with if not from NPC's? Do you just add numbers to a program block and start printing your own?
     
  18. GravelProducer Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    99
    Not necessarily. That is actually one of the main problems...

    There are good reasons for others players to want iron, gold or uranium in exchange for what they sell. Why should they accept currency at all?
     
  19. Harrekin Master Engineer

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    3,077
    So much opposition to currency...this forum must be full of lefties.
     
  20. Levits Senior Engineer

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    2,122
    Nah, I'm right handed :woot:
     
  21. fabricator77 Apprentice Engineer

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    399
    No Star Trek fans.
     
  22. Amy Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    190
    I like the idea of currency.
    I hope they introduce it one day.
    When we get planets we will probably get more blocks and wood ect, theres no reason why they cant put an economy into SE.
    Its just tricky.
     
  23. GravelProducer Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    99
    Ooh... First the "argumentative little girl" card and now the "lefty" card... Well, at least the knave of rubber and glue does not counter the lefty...

    Actually, opposition to currency in an economy the type of SE has nothing to do with a left-right-axis view on economics, but to the scale and complexity of the economy in the game.

    Now, if I had argued against the silliness of having a fully capitalistic economy in a small group trying to survive together ("Oh no, we are the only survivors after the crash on a hostile planet. If you give me a lot of money, I give you the weapon you need to protect us all...") the lefty argument would be somewhat reasonable...
     
  24. mexmer Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,977
    banknote can be used as replacement for toilet paper in urgent needs, tho' in space suit ... probly not ;o) - but this is another example of barter - gun for toilet paper
     
  25. Harrekin Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,077
    Your argument has absolutely no basis except a petulant "I don't want/like it".

    Good day sir.
     
  26. SenorZorros Master Engineer

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    7,063
    then do you have a better argument to counter the it's not needed argument?

    the problem with virtual currency is that there is no reason to use it over barter. it's main use, a way to value unequal things, is not needed since everyone needs the same twenty things. it still has the advantage of being easy to carry but that is made less important since you can buy almost everything with a large container filled with uranium.
    also we will have a higher influence of the problem that virtual currency has no intrinsic value. therefore using it is a risk at best and a bad idea in most cases.

    also please stop using ad hominem. I wouldn't be surprised if calling people lefties can be considered against the rules for multiple reasons. also the idea of calling people who oppose currency lefties is ignorant at best. for starters socialist and other left groups generally like currency as much as for instance liberals and other right-wing political groups. the only group which may oppose currency are anarchists and they are found on the whole spectrum. also what would be wrong with left political views anyway? it is generally considered a good thing to be interested in caring for others instead of ruthless egoism.

    (before you ask, I see myself as someone in the progressive middle ground. I'd like a mostly unregulated economy where the state provides infrastructure and bottom lines while keeping most of the economy free. combined with a society where things like healthcare and other services are provided by the state. an exception to this could be made for things like railways where a company always has a de facto regional monopoly. in this case more extensive regulation or even nationalized companies may be better.)
     
  27. Harrekin Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,077
    Like talking to a wall...
     
  28. Galaxian Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    191
    I look back after finals and see why people always call the currency debate one of "Those" arguments.
    Harrekin, by your logic, there is literally no reason to not implement ANY one thing because not wanting or liking it is a completely invalid argument. People have expressed reasons and backing for why it shouldn't be present. I would say you had merit if people were merely dropping in to say "ya I don't like this".
    If NPCs that actually traded with you were a thing in the game, perhaps currency would have a real VALUE other than being a way to waste time when it'd be easier and faster just to ship materials for barter - something so simple that literally all it requires for existence is for people to perceive various materials as having different worth to them at a given time. As I said earlier, for currency to be added, there has to be something to actually give it a value that isn't equivalent to stone, minus the ability to actually weaponize it. ...Though a cash cannon would be a hilarious way to shoot at people.

    I have to say ditto on your comment, after watching this thread I am mostly silent because it's plain obvious that no side will budge.
     
  29. SenorZorros Master Engineer

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    7,063
    that's quite how I feel indeed.
     
  30. Orange_Slime_ Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    560
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