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Discussion in 'General' started by Phrixos28, Jun 11, 2020.

  1. Phrixos28 Trainee Engineer

    The current trend of the very unpopular DLC'S that Keen Software House are continuing to employ, are proving very unpopular on the steam community. Many are threatening to abandon the game as a result of the obvious cash grabbing that KEEN are doing rather than fixing the core issues with the game. There is evidence to support that certain moderators on the steam forums employed by Keen are trying desperatly and in vain to keep this quiet and not reporting the obvious discontent about continualy Spewing out DLC! The fact that DLC is not usable in offline mode is kept suspiciously quiet by keen marketing too! lets hope this awful trend will die a hopeless death, just like Medieval Engineers did!
    --- Automerge ---
    the following text is from the steam forum by SUPPOSED DEVELOPER DAN2D3D showing a complete lack of respect for peoples oppinion, responding by,

    Some of the Devs come here to read the forum discussions tho the Community Manager and me always keep an eye here.


    I was very honest with the community, right after a member created a forum discussion about DLC, I posted in to tell all that I will not add a specific point to my monthly report that was "Stop making DLC".

    I am honest with the communty by telling them right away what I will not do so all knows.

    I could have never told the community about the fact that I will not add that specifc point that is "Stop doing DLCs" to my report.

    So you can report on your side now that you know what I will not add.

    I will ask you > Would you prefer me not to tell about my opinion next time?
    (prefer me not being honest with them?)
    --- Automerge ---
    Also this from yet another steam community member, from the thread, A DIGITAL FRONTIER by, God of Brezzil [​IMG] 14 May @ 10:08pm
    At this point, Keen has made it clear that they don't listen to their community.
    The amount of comments complaining about the previous two "HI"-events should have prompted some feedback, but instead we get this. And this time we don't even get a real screenshot. I'm done, and regret ever buying the game.
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2020
    • Disagree Disagree x 6
  2. odizzido Junior Engineer

    Threatening to abandon the game seems like an odd thing. I "abandon" games all the time when I have finished playing them. I've largely "abandoned" space engineers too since minus messing about there really isn't anything to do in it. I have minor hopes that eventually a game will be built on the existing base as I think that could be pretty fun. But I had some fun messing about and making some machines as that's something I enjoy.

    Personally I got stellaris on a humble bundle for almost free but never got any of the DLC. I still play the game, but I've never purchased any of the DLC because there are 50 of them and the game costs hundreds of dollars for the actual game and not the (decent) shell that is the base game. I think it's a shame that paradox games are so expensive and that I will likely never play cities skylines even though it looks good but hey, it's up to them. If they don't want to sell the complete game at a price I like then I won't play it and they won't get my money.

    I can understand regretting buying this game though. I would have probably regretted buying stellaris if I actually paid more than 30 cents for it. I dislike it when empty shells are sold at full price which is nothing more than a store front for all their DLC and macrotransactions. The game industry has taught me to not buy games until they've been out for at least a year to see what happens. Perhaps you and others like you should join me in not buying them. I think we would all be better off.

    I will buy/support some games early such as xenonauts2 though. I wanted to help fund development of the game. Maybe the game will be good, maybe not, but I wanted to give them a chance to make it.
  3. Phrixos28 Trainee Engineer

    Initially, i was excited when the first DLC was rolled out, even the second one, then by the third, i started getting concerned that it was going to be like this for ever! Then i find out that the dlc was unusable in offline mode! But, because i am a big fan of the game i tried to ignore this fact. Then you get people saying, if you don't like it dont but it! Convienientlyignoring the fact the game has over 4000 bugs and glitches, some of which are over 5 years old!! then the game gets released even though its not a complete game, no real opponant in survival, the game release also stopped us saving mods in offline mode, ruining (for some) the game and blueprints useing mods. I dont understand why keen choose to go down this dlc road, the community is getting more and more dissolusioned by the constant dlc.!
  4. Malware Master Engineer

    Keen choose to go down the DLC road because it's either that or stop development completely. It's why ME was shut down, it didn't make money. Making a game isn't free, and SE is a lot larger than they originally planned because of all the things the community demanded - and was given. They need to pay salaries. As for the bugs... They have only somewhere around 10 programmers. Finding and fixing the bugs is hard and takes time. The artists who make the DLCs can't contribute to the bug hunt, but at least they can help fund it.

    When people say "don't buy it" they have the right of it. You vote with your wallet. If Keen didn't make money off the DLCs, they wouldn't make them, so that alone proves that the silent majority is currently out voting the loud minority. (as a side note: "cash grab" : They're a business, not a charity. The entire game, as pretty much all other games out there, are "cash grabs". Nothing new here)

    Finally, there's no secrets being "hidden" here. Keen is as aware about the anti-DLC movement as everybody else. It's completely out in the open. When Dan (a moderator, not developer) won't put the item on his list it is with the knowledge that it is completely pointless, as long as the DLCs sell well, as apparently they are, the yells of the anti DLCers are muted by the numbers and facts.

    The anti DLC movement is currently losing the only vote that matters. So yeah. "Don't like it, don't buy it" truly is the best advice.
    • Agree Agree x 6
    • Like Like x 3
  5. xpgx1 Trainee Engineer

    Hmmm, I see. As a long time player that also has other games besides SE =)... I honestly, truly have no issues with SE's DLC offerings. They are dirt cheap, provide cosmetic glory and keep me entertained - even after 6 years. So I personally don't get any "anti-dlc" movement vibes here. If you loose your temper here - oh boy, check out some awesome offerings EA has in store for you: right now. I think this is completely justified and was to be expected after exiting early access and then the beta phase. So idk, to me this criticism is understandable, but not relatable. I respect your different POV here, I just don't think is justified. BUT I don't play online very much, I mostly keep to my isolated singleplayer savegames and build stuff for my own. Maybe I'm too casual to be able to talk about these specific instances some raised here. Loosing a few offline features is never cool, having bugs for YEARS was never fun and CONTANTLY breaking mod support sucks *beep* and *beep*. I get it. I really do.

    Cities Skylines is such an old game - it's only alive because the devs and the broader workshop community kept adding new stuff to it. Picking the game up with SOME DLCs isn't unreasonable expensive. It's old, it does what you have been told - but if you want fresh paint, pay a few bucks. And I can wholeheartedly say that games like Cities and even Stellaris are games that are tall and sooo wide - you do not need to buy any or even all DLCs. That's crazy - it's like saying Sims 4 is only good if you get ALL the packs/expansions. No it's not, all four base games (Sims, Cities Skylines, Stellaris and yes - Space Engineers) offer exactly what they promised, some even more.

    In any case, take care of you, your family and be safe out there. In space or on the streets :)
  6. Martin R Wolfe Trainee Engineer

    Considering the price of the base game with all the DLC released to date the cost is about equivalent of a top tear game without DLC. So even buying all the DLC SE is competitive. Obviously as more DLC comes out this will change but as of now SE still works out the same price or cheaper than other games.
    • Agree Agree x 2
  7. May Rears Apprentice Engineer

    Thats impressive, the title claims the new DLC is bombing hard yet it isnt even out yet.
    • Funny Funny x 4
  8. Phrixos28 Trainee Engineer

    so you reckon the DLC is going to be popular? you stay deluded pal! Have you even read the posts??
  9. May Rears Apprentice Engineer

    I don't know if the DLC is going to be popular just the same way YOU don't know if it is going to bomb. You call me deluded when YOU are the only one claiming to know the future with certainty.
    • Agree Agree x 2
  10. Capt.SkuLL Apprentice Engineer

    me on my end, my only complaint was that some of the features from the DLC should have been OFFLINE. this game was advertised as an OFFLINE game. i was disappointed to discover after a power outage in our city that my skins, decorations etc could not be accessed. second complaint was that the DLC i bought because of the SKIN it includes does not work properly, and so i was informed by the good people on this forum that knows the devs well, that they are hard pressed in fixing bugs to even bother looking at how i was TRICKED into buying a skin that only works half the time. apparently, DLCs take precedence over fixing bugs.

    i still play the game despite all these, but to the question of whether i would buy another decorative DLC is very clear. i would not.

    Issues :

    Character Skin changes to default when sitting in cockpit.
    Grinder, welder, tools etc, changes to default skin.
    Character hand warps and twisted when placing grids.
    using mods is unbearable because the game forces you to check for mod updates before starting.
    ( i already record a video of these issues and presented to support but they said it doesn't happen to them. so if it doesn't happen to them, its all in my head ).
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2020
    • Informative Informative x 1
  11. Malware Master Engineer

    So you're saying you want artists to fix bugs? :p I'd prefer them sticking to modelling and textures :D

    The DLCs don't have any new features.
  12. Capt.SkuLL Apprentice Engineer

    nope never said anything about an artist to fix bugs. i have never said that. i call for responsible project leaders to fix the mess and not tell me they don't have the time when clearly they have time for DLCs.
    im only calling for what they call "FAIR TRADE" if the company knows about it. i paid for something that is broken, i wish to have it fixed.

    if you buy a computer for example, and you found that a part is defective, surely the company wont say well we are busy doing something else.
    you're not going to say "oh ok well sorry to bother you folks, just post us another product for sale so that we can keep throwing money at it then"

    but there is no convincing you guys, its like you guys are working for keen. its very logical for a customer to complain about broken products but you guys seems to keep countering it with what you think will justify a bad product.
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  13. Malware Master Engineer

    Nope, I have no problem with your complaints about things that don't work. It's your belief that the DLCs even affect their ability to fix bugs etc that I'm targeting.

    The DLCs are irrelevant in that context. Because the people making the DLCs can't fix the bugs. Ergo, DLCs can't really "take precedence". Because "taking precedence" implies that doing the DLCs affects the ability to do other things.

    I don't work for Keen. But I am a long-time professional programmer.
    • Agree Agree x 3
  14. May Rears Apprentice Engineer

    Would you expect the company to use a technician/engineer with the correct skillset and experience at this company you use as an example to fix your pc or one of the accounts or admin people? Do you want Keen to put a graphic designer onto a task to fix a piece of bugged code? you claim not in your line about never saying anything about an artist fixing bugs but that is exactly what you are saying when you say they should not create DLC and fix bugs instead. Two different skillsets.

    No one is trying to justify a "broken product" they are simply trying to point out the reality of the situation.
  15. Capt.SkuLL Apprentice Engineer

    OMG you guys really know how to play this. first off i never said anything about using artists and we cleared that. second i never said use the wrong personnel to fix bugs.
    im saying company should focus on fixing bugs. jesus. prioritize on the personnel who should be fixing bugs.
    you have to understand that we are on the receiving end of a BAD DEAL, keen did not reimbursed us and took away what we purchased. it just said we are busy, deal with it.
    im saying, and this is really very simple and obvious you really dont have to put words on my comments, im not saying anything else other than

    "KEEN have got to focus more on fixing these bugs. i would focus more on fixing these bugs before i can have the face to smile and offer more DLCs for sale"

    im not saying use the wrong person to fix it. pls don't add anything else on my comment.

    please, tell your colleagues on keen to focus more on the fixing side so that people like myself would enjoy buying more DLCs. we are not anti-keen. we love the game. just fix it.
    accept these "feedback" positively and don't take them as offense. its free information to help you become a well trusted game dev company moving forward.
    --- Automerge ---
    no no, what im saying is that they should focus more on fixing bugs than DLCs. <-- you never thought about this as my point ? you think my point is that it should be fixed by the personnel making the DLCs ? really ?

    just as same, im not trying to tell Keen to use their graphic artists or admins to fix a game bug. im voicing out my concerns and feedback and experience from playing this game. simply pointing out the reality of the situation.
    if that is so wrong, then touche.
    --- Automerge ---

    I love this game, HANDS DOWN ! ... i think its Brilliant. Keen you did a great job ( i mean ALL of you keen, not a single department, nor a specific personnel , all of you Keen, GREAT JOB ! )

    after all the bugs are fixed, i could play this game till im 70.

    thumbs up :tu: trully.
  16. Malware Master Engineer

    so I can't tell them to do anything any more than you can. As for asking them to fix bugs, I already do that every time I report a new bug.

    Maybe there was some misunderstanding of intent here, but your phrasing implied that you thought that making the DLCs impacted their ability to fix bugs. Which it doesn't. Not making the DLCs means the artists twiddle their thumbs doing nothing.

    Before going on I want to make things clear. I am in the agreement with very many that Keen released the game way too soon and probably for the wrong reasons. I am not without critique towards Keen's leadership, nowhere near. There are very many choices made I strongly disagree with although some of the recent changes seem to move somewhat in the right direction.

    I speak through my own experience trying to educate. I've been programming for around 30 years in total, about half of that professionally. I don't blame people for not understanding software engineering. It's a strange profession that doesn't really match many others. It's one of those "you needed to be there" things. Maybe I come across as arrogant, that wouldn't be the first time - but English not being my first language combined with my confidence in my experience might sometimes translate that way. For this I apologize, it's not my intent.

    You should consider the fact that they do fix bugs every single update. There hasn't been a single update that hasn't had long list of bugfixes. They aren't a big company. They don't have hundreds of programmers. Add to that that not all the programmers can fix all the bugs. It's not possible for the individual programmer to know the entire system - so you don't set a network specialist to fix rendering bugs or vice versa. Suddenly the already limited resources gets limited even further.

    Trust me, friend. They're not avoiding fixing bugs, however much it might seem like it. They're not ignoring problems. But there's oh so many of us, and only a very few of them... and SE has grown so very much larger than they first thought it would, in my opinion maybe beyond them, so they have to pick and choose.

    Fixing bugs takes a lot of time, and that assumes that they have good descriptive bug reports that tells them how to reproduce those bugs. Have you read through some of the reports? How many of those bug reports help the devs reproduce the problem so they can fix it? A bug report saying "This doesn't work. Fix it" isn' t very helpful...

    "But every new version adds new bugs", I hear you saying. Yeah. Unfortunately it does. There's another factor here. People are screaming for optimization updates. Which Keen is also trying to do. Problem with optimization is that this means changing and simplifying code. The only way to make code run faster is to run less of it. This means that for every optimization Keen does, there's a chance for another bug happening. This is a "can't have the cake and eat it to" kind of deal. Optimization => Bugs.

    So. The offline problem? I'm sorry to say, and I can imagine your reaction even now, but that's a very small issue. In my part of the world, and given their reaction I have to imagine it's like that in their part of the world as well, being offline is... well, it's pretty much not a thing any more. I'm never offline. This is the truth for the absolute majority of people. To my knowledge, the DLC pieces uses Steam's inventory system for a secure way to determine if you have purchased the DLCs. So if Steam isn't available, they can't know securely if you own the DLCs. It might not have been the best approach, but it'd have been fast to implement and wouldn't affect that many people. Should they fix it? Hell yes. Of course they should. And if one of you guys have reported this on the support site, link it and I'll vote, out of solidarity. But... without enough votes showing that this is something that a large part of the community struggle with, the priority of finding a fix for such an issue would end up low on their list... their - as you yourself state - very long list of things to fix.

    No, Keen are not lazy. No, they're not actively trying to trick you (it wouldn't really be worth it for them, the DLCs individually are too cheap). No, they're not "moneygrabbing" any more than any other gaming company out there. They're simply in over their heads, with more work to do than they have resources to solve. Sure, it's their own fault. But it's because they listened to the community too much, trying to give us everything, not because they aren't listening. If they'd put some limits down earlier, set down a path through the game they wanted SE to be rather than trying to accommodate for every single playstyle out there, we'd have been in a better place - and with a better game.
    • Like Like x 4
  17. Bullet_Force Apprentice Engineer

    When I talk to ex players about getting back into Space Engineers they always say the same thing to me. "Has it got more then 2 weapons yet?"

    PVP players make up a significant portion of the player base and we have been completely ignored by the devs for 7 years. Every DLC that has been made for PVE players with stuff like new rainbow paint schemes and putting a kitchen in your space ship. Players want meaningful and relevant content, not silly and irrelevant cosmetic junk. Make a DLC that adds new weapons and features and you will see your sales figures go through the roof.
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Capt.SkuLL Apprentice Engineer

    oh i thought you were keen admin on forum

    i implied that keen should have been more focused on fixing bugs. can they really keep making DLC's while the bugs pile up ? focus... on ... bug... fixing ... first ...

    We are not on the same page. i think the game is playable on its current state, its natural for bugs to be countered along the way as contents are updated, what i do know is that these bugs needed to be dealt with before moving.
    some of these bugs dates years. so im saying as DLCs present more bugs to fix, it increases the problems to resolve, given that as you said they are busy fixing bugs and these bugs are really really old, i would suggest focus on bug fixes first.

    you have already informed me of this before. we agreed we are both in the same field. i make business application programs and naturally, you cannot prevent bugs or glitches from appearing even on launch. the important thing is that these bugs are dealt with, i have been programming for 15 years and i have never once left a bug unfixed for more than 2 months nor have i ever presented new products to my clients while there are still issues with my current project.

    too much things that i did not say that were written, i couldn't really quote all of these. never said they are lazy, never said they should put the wrong person to fix bugs,
    most of these are EXCUSES if it ever came from a company. but i hear you are not from keen so i can understand you thinking this way.

    so this may be blunt but i have to be blunt in order to make you realize where we are at

    - NO SIR, once i am sold a defective product it is not my concern what the drama is in their lives. i am a paying customer and i expect my concerns to be corrected.
    if its true you said that they are overwhelmed with issues in the company that they cant fix a bug, how much more do you think they can handle when all these DLCs keep coming and the bugs keep piling up ?

    i don't tell my clients i wasn't able to fix the bugs in my system because i was having a hard time with my employees or my bills etc, that is none of their concern.

    now what are we going to do when these bugs, like some of the bugs that were from months ago that survived this far, survive for another year ? understand that keen is having manpower issues ???

    NOW the way i observe whenever you guys respond to comments of disappointments, call for bug fixes on the forum is that we should have never said these things ?
    we shouldn't voice out that our bugs are still left unresolved ?

    what is wrong with us sharing our experience, feedback, and disappointments with the way things are going ?

    we can voice out our opinion as it is right ?

    now, can you even be sure, that they are working on the bug that i reported ? because that is part of my complaint. they seem to have dismissed it as unfounded merely because it never happened to them
    despite my videos showing it. ( i can re-post the videos ). you are telling me they are trying to fix this but are just too busy with something else ?

    i don't want to do this because it takes so much of my time modding than playing the game, but it seems i may have to check out the mod tutorials.
    in my days playing X-Rebirth that damn game had issues that i had to fix myself on my end. maybe i can do that here.

    this way i can convince myself that it really does takes a very long time to fix a simple bug or identify what is causing it.
    --- Automerge ---
    is there any way i can get a hold of the script file that handles execution or character animation when character enters a cockpit ? im betting there is a code in there that relies on connecting to a steam server to get information on valid skins, and when it fails to do so, it reverts to the character exiting with no skin.
  19. Malware Master Engineer

    And I'm saying the one does not affect the other. They can easily do both, because it involves different people. They do both, whether you believe it or not.

    I can't keep track of every individual on the forums. If you are in the business I don't understand why I even need to say these things to you. It should be perfectly clear.

    I'm attempting to explain my point of view. I'm not only addressing you individually. I speak generally.

    They can't fix all the bugs at the same time. Some must wait. And the DLCs don't add new features, so they don't add new bugs. They're just new models and textures.

    Neither did they. I just keep my eyes open. There are only so many workhours in a day, and every single work item takes time to do. Doesn't matter whether or not it's your client's concern or not, if you don't have the workhours available to fix the bug, the bug won't get fixed. Simple math.

    Simply trying to explain why things are the way they are is equal to trying to silent people? This is news to me. I have never tried to silent people in my life. Objecting to their rudeness, naiveté and/or ignorance about my profession? Sure. I am not without pride. Silent them? Never.

    I am saying they need to pick and choose, that they can't fix everything immediately. That there are thousands of tickets, and 10-ish people to do them. And most likely they're not dismissing it as unfounded, but as I said - if they can't reproduce it, they can't fix it. Since they have so big a workload, they try to exit early.

    It doesn't necessarily take "a very long time to fix a simple bug or identify what is causing it". But it might take a long time before they're even able to open the ticket, because there's so many ahead of it.

    Oh, and what you might think is "a simple bug" might not actually be so simple, even from the viewpoint of an experienced developer. We don't see the whole picture.
    • Like Like x 1
  20. Capt.SkuLL Apprentice Engineer

    no but you implied in all your replies that this is so. which is why i keep mistaking you for someone who is within keen. because i thought you knew something from inside.
    so they are not telling me that they cant fix my bug because they are busy doing something else ?

    bear in mind that what i have been complaining in game all this time was the DLC that i bought that is not working properly. its a DLC. Decorative packs 1 and 2. the character skin that changes to default skin.

    no its the way you deliver your message. like
    i never said something like that. you do it in a way that attacks my intelligence. you deliver it like i'm an idiot who thinks that "artists" should fix bugs
    when in fact im referring to the programmers who will be part of delivering that DLC to fruition as DLCs are not all just graphics. some are game play changes, and some are decorations but require to be as object in the game.
    which is what my issue is, an object in the game, A DECORATIVE object at least, is not working and is bugged. if anything this should fall under your "Artists". but im not pushing for that.

    i agree pick and choose, which ones should you pick then ? a very large fix that could take you a year to even have an update to show but not resolved,
    or a very easy fix that you could review with a coffee mug on one hand. because thats how i prioritize my fixes. fixing the small issues and present a SPEEDY resolution, than have everything waiting on this one huge problem that could take time.

    and once you have your pick, how long before you can actually fix it ? because im hearing these fixing crashes in client pcs updates and its still there. game still crashes even though in the last update that was stated as part of the fix. even when exiting the game, space engineers remain on process consuming 2GB ram floating in memory and when you run the game again it crashes.

    i haven't delved inside Space Engineers modding just yet, and you might be right on this one. but yeah i was wondering if you could show me the script file responsible for executing codes whenever a player enters a cockpit or sits on a bench.
    what functions are called, animations triggered, calls executed when this happens. i noticed you created a tutorial on modding. i was hoping you could provide me with a PEEK of what is inside the file.

    is SE the same with games like X rebirth where we can brake down several compressed files in the game and check out scripts that we can modify ?
  21. Malware Master Engineer

    I do speak with some them. I won't deny that. I made the programmable block compiler, you can't do that without getting some contact. But I have no influence, and I don't talk with the leaders. Only certain individual developers. I consider a couple of them friends, as far as one can be friends with anyone over the internet. But this is only minimal insight. It is, say, how I know roughly how many they are. I'm not told any details, obviously. I'm still a third party and just a customer. I'm saying what is very likely - quite confidently - based on how many they are, how many tickets there are, and based on my own experience.

    Then there's a bug in the skinning system. Not the DLC itself. I am not considering individual bugs. I haven't seen this bug myself, so I have no further comment.

    I apologize. However you did imply it and I was not the only one reading that into your statements. I was making fun of the idea, yes. I won't deny that. I have seen plenty of people genuinely making this claim, actually believing it, so many times over the years, and I want to make sure the idea is understood as ridiculous, because it truly is ridiculous. And I obviously have no idea who you are and what you know. Ergo I can only work with what you say. And what you said implied to me that this was your thoughts.

    What gameplay changes do you think have been made as DLC? Because to my knowledge there's been none. All gameplay changes have been vanilla. No programmers are required to add blocks or skins to the game. That's just XML definitions. No code needed.

    I'd say the closest thing that might have needed at least some programmer input would have been the scenario, but even that is visual programming and not "real" programming.

    The artists simply make the assets, not the code that applies it. They can't fix this.

    1. The ones that have actual gamebreaking impacts, not merely visual/aesthetic issues.
    2. The ones that have a high number of votes, meaning a lot of people are impacted by the problem. This is why they have a voting system in the first place.
    3. The time I have available based on other works put to me.

    Because there's more than one crash, or more than one cause of crashes - and they've not caught them all. Or; they can't really reproduce the crash themselves but they fixed something they thought might fix the crash.

    Again I am not speaking of one particular issue, but generally. One should not assume any bug is "simple" because it might not be. I don't have count how many times a support person - yes, someone that should actually know what they're talking about - have come in asking me to "just quickly fix this little thing" and it's ended up being a week's work (myeah... somewhat an exaggeration, but you get the idea). Or how often someone higher up have asked for "just quickly add one more little button right here". Or "I just want this column in this report here." Sigh.

    I have not created a modding tutorial, I have created an ingame scripting tutorial. Ingame scripts are not mods and do not have access to the same things mods do.

    No, SE is compiled. There are no scripts. You can decompile using tools like ILSpy, but I can't tell you where the code you ask for is - because I don't know. And changing it and recompiling it... I guess it's theoretically possible, but it'd technically be illegal (not that I think Keen would care unless you started distributing) and probably not very easy.
  22. Lord Grey Apprentice Engineer

    We already have it that the PVP are not a significant portion of this game, as you say, most of them left years ago to find their fulfillment somewhere else. And if I may add, good riddance.
    • Agree Agree x 4
  23. Capt.SkuLL Apprentice Engineer


    the skinning system is not the problem. it can produce skins outside of the DLC pretty much why it resulted in using the default skins when it cant gain access to the DLC skins. this is pretty obvious since the DLC skins are not locally available.
    "Artists" Dept. keep making these DLCs while a bug in the "Programmers" Dept. exists is what bothers me. fix the bug first, that is not illogical even when they reason they have no manpower or have other priorities.

    i hear so many excuses that leaves us the customers left in the corner money out in our pockets with a product that is broken. and apparently its justified because they have other "priorities" like DLCs.

    - industrial cockpit. compared with other cockpits it is more convenient to use as it has a wider cockpit view. its a game changer
    - the Armory locker or the freight boxes, in vanilla i can create a Cargo box and pretend its my locker but that would take less space to walk around than the locker. its a game changer
    - bed (*Functionality note: Can store players' inventory and toolbar while they're offline and keeps them alive as long as there is oxygen available.) i haven't been online because of the MP join problem but this seems like a game changer for those without.

    had i known that the skins are bugged and that i cant expect it to work properly i would have not bought the dlcs. in fact if keen gave me an offer of refund today i would immediately return Dec pack 1 and Dec pack 2 to them and get my money back.

    they are all programming my friend. anything that is coded is programming but i know you know this because you have far more experience in the industry than myself. 30 years vs 15 years.
    let me ask you this, if your "Artists" are done with their concept for a DLC, they can just add that to the game without any help from the programmers who are "busy fixing bugs" ?
    they alone can handle the animation etc of their DLCs ? the industrial cockpit is just a 3D design that can simply be added in the game as an object and the rest of the game will be compatible with it ?
    or do they in fact collaborate with their programmers to put the DLCs into effect ?

    hence why we said we wont BUY another DLCs ( aesthetic ) ... this right here is the core of my original post which you reacted saying i cant expect them to fix a skin bug because they have other more important bug fixes to do.
    you do get now why i said i wont buy another DLC until the old ones are fixed ?
    because if we keep on buying, we keep getting a bad deal, glitches in the DLCs that are blamed on programming and hence cannot be resolved because they are just Aesthetics.

    its gonna take them forever to fix. which is why the DLCs are not gonna be able to get fixed. which is why we complain. this is a never ending process that leaves smaller issues unresolved depending on the resolution of the "bigger issue".
    this my friend is why i prioritize on the smaller, more fixable bugs in my projects that i can sooner present to my clients while im fixing the larger issue. you are more productive this way than waiting to fix your larger issues then finding out its not yet fixed and going back and fort trying to fix it while the smaller issues are set aside.

    don't worry its not just blindly assuming a bug is simple to fix. a skin is as you put it "Aesthetic" and should have not affected a larger portion of the game's programming.
    otherwise DLCs DO affect programming and we have contradicted ourselves.

    a column is actually pretty simple to add. if you are referring to our line of work outside games. ( alright my bad )

    hmmm really ? i thought this game allows modding. so they allow modding, but to some extent, but then there is a threat of legality ... of course it will be distributed to other players. that is one of the nice things about modding and sharing.
    im really confused with the modding scheme of SE right now, i will check their rules later and get a bigger picture about modding before i can open files and check what could be causing my skin issues.
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2020
  24. Malware Master Engineer

    I'm not justifying anything. I'm just putting facts on the table.

    I guess we've spoken beyond each other here. I'm talking about things that require coding that exists purely as DLC, and none of those are DLC features. All of those functions exist in vanilla. They're just alternate models. The cockpit is... well, a cockpit. It's just a different model. The lockers and boxes are just models with inventory, but without the conveyor function. The bed is a cryopod (a vanilla block) which works the same way. There's no new features here. All of these use already existing code.

    Yes, they can - and do. Knowing how to edit and create an XML document is very different from knowing how to program.

    I have never had any problem with you not buying another DLC. That's your choice, none of my business. Again I am only stating the facts as I know them. I'm not trying to force you to do anything, I'm just telling you facts.

    Almost 4000 bug report tickets, 10(ish) developers. Even focusing on just the smaller issues it'd take good time reaching yours. Otherwise, I guess our priorities are very different. I'd rather focus on stopping crashes and other things that prevents people from actually playing the game.

    Already addressed this. You've got this backwards. The skin itself is not the problem. If you don't want to believe me that's not my problem.

    You've never worked on large data-centric products with multiple table joins and large data amounts, I gather? Adding a column often causes days of trying to optimize the query in order to make it presentable in a decent amount of time. If even possible at all.

    There are thousands of mods on the workshop already. The game allows modding through the dedicated mod API, with which you can create your own code, models, textures etcetera. It is incredible what the modding community is capable of doing with it. Like all other software out there, the normal copyright protection - not something that's been explicitly stated - prevents decompilation, recompilation and hacking. But... we don't need to do that. There is no threat of legality for the mods. Your own product has the very same protection, automatically, just like all others out there. Nobody needs to say or do anything, it's just how it is.
  25. Capt.SkuLL Apprentice Engineer

    yes, what you said are facts they are tied with other problems. what i said are also facts, we paid for a buggy DLC and received no clear resolution to the issue.
    the closest i got is from you who said that they probably cant focus on fixing small issues because they have more pressing matters to tend to. like selling another DLC.
    these are all facts and naturally, as a dissatisfied customer, i expressed my disappointment.

    Any coding is programming. XML is programming. DLC "Downloadable Content" is not a term restricted to Aesthetics.
    any issues with your XML is a "BUG" or a "GLITCH" in programming that can cause an issue with how the result is presented ( e.g. the wrong skin or an unknown model is linked in the XML which does not exist or cannot be accessed ).

    just like a CAR is a CAR i don't get the point. They are categorized as a Cockpit but their functions and designs differ in that they allow for different gameplay options.
    -the fighter cockpit allows for a large conveyor port connection in the rear making it convenient to place a grid with large conveyor ports in there. allowing any large items from the cockpit to be transferable to your cargo. (gameplay changes)
    -the industrial cockpit gives the user a much wider view of the front and can even see the bottom of where he is going. allowing for better navigation. (gameplay changes)
    these are gameplay changes. Anything that does not affect gameplay are the ones you are referring to. the Pure Aesthetics changes. like a different shade of color like the re-color of skins added in DLCs.
    anything that affects how you play the game is a gameplay change. visual changes does not make you change your gameplay.
    ( still depends on how the game uses aesthetics. for example, in an FPS a camouflage with different shades might seem like just aesthetics but it affects how other players can see you and therefore is a gameplay change. )

    yes thank you i am aware of that. i stated the facts as well and gave them a feedback that i, not everyone else, but i will be reluctant to purchase another DLC considering the horrors i got from Decor1 and Decor2 DLCs and how they responded to my bug reports. does not mean i think they should let the graphics artists fix the program, does not necessarily mean i am unaware of their other bugs to fix, its just me giving my feedback.

    Holy COW 4000 bug report tickets that are pending ? this does not look good keen. i have just been from another game that got us annoyed with the same issues and even they don't reach that far in unsolved bugs.
    but see if they have 4000 bugs to fix, and they tried to fix something that is taking them TOO LONG to fix, then you know they will be stuck with trying to fix that issue for a very long time maybe even years.
    as a fellow programmer, tell me, do you think its productive or counter productive to keep focusing on this single issue rather than to put some effort into fixing other issues that can be fixed sooner ?
    i mean sure prioritize on the bigger bug at first, but how long is too long before you can say we are not getting anywhere with this bug lets try and solve the smaller ones and get that out of the way first.

    fair enough

    WHAT ! no no, you said add a column in a report ( a print out ) . you did not say add a column in a table
    what the hell man ? i handle data with over 2 million customers and that is just the list of unique customers alone. linked to their sales for which each of them could have 10 to 100 purchases and those sales are linked to sales items where each individual product sold is detailed further increasing the join. thats not even including our project in a Postal Company which is gigantic. but had never taken me days adding a single column in MySQL even if you had indexes.
    i can understand that you are far more experienced programmer than i am but god damn man ! forgive me but damn.:(

    ok thanks. ima just check them out :(

    Last edited: Jun 15, 2020
  26. Roxette Senior Engineer

    <pedant mode activated> Almost but not quite, as the cryo has ducting for oxygen, the bed requires a sealed compartment with oxygen provided to an air vent.

    Sorry ^.^
  27. Malware Master Engineer

    @Roxette Doesn't matter, it's literally the same code. That's the point here, not how the model is made.

    And that is perfectly fine and I've never said otherwise. This was about whether making DLCs affect their ability to fix bugs. To which the answer is no.

    Irrelevant in this case. I'm speaking of these particular cases; the Space Engineers DLCs. I'm also telling you that the Keen artists are dealing with their own XML. I guess we're gonna have to agree to disagree on XML being programming. XML is a markup (definition) language, not a programming language.

    Because they don't require any code change. I mean it's a cockpit in that it's literally using the exact same code as any other cockpit: The MyCockpit class to be exact. The code is already there. No new code, just use of existing code and the definitions that the artists already know how to set up.

    I've never said the DLCs don't have gameplay changes. I've said there's no new code in the DLCs that cause gameplay impact. Meaning; there's nothing that requires a programmer. Feel free to reread my posts for the evidence.

    And that is perfectly fine and I've never said otherwise.

    And you didn't notice that I already stated I believe they're in over their heads then I guess. I never said they're "focusing on a single issue" though. I've been saying they're prioritizing. That's it. And with 4000 tickets there's gonna be a lot that has a higher impact than a mere aesthetic one. For someone who's annoyed that I supposedly am planting words in your mouth, you're getting good at planting words in mine.

    I have no idea how you could interpret this as insulting. I'm sorry, it was not intended that way. It was a genuine question, as this is a genuine problem we have. You were making an "actually" statement claiming it's easy when there's absolutely no way you could know that, as you have no idea what I'm working with.

    Yes, printout column. Not database column. A live join. Our columns are online live reports. Pulling data, live, from the database (or multiple, in a few cases), with the need to combine information and make calculations cross multiple tables as the original database was not designed to do and making changes is not easy.

    I am done with this issue now. It's enough.

    To correct the record first though. If you reread my original statement, I've not been professional for 30 years. I've programmed for 30 years, but about half that professionally; so just about as long as you have. In terms of time, I am not more experienced than you. But clearly I've had a very different experience than you have.
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2020
  28. Capt.SkuLL Apprentice Engineer

    yeah i'm done as well. there is just no point continuing like this. i could quote several other misinformation in each reply and we could go on forever. things i never said and how it came back to me as putting words in your mouth.
    differences in understanding what a game change is and so on.

    i am going to end this exchange by reiterating my point.

    The company Keen ( the entire company not the artists alone ) should really try and divert some resources to fix bugs including small bugs from the previous DLC before offering another DLC.
    forget about having no people for fixing bugs but have available personnel ( artists ) for more DLCs. the point is having the Audacity to offer NEW DLCs when the previous one was a problem.

    Again this is not me hating on Keen. this is me actually asking them to fix this issue so that i can BUY MORE of their DLCs. (ALSO not saying keen depends on me alone. of course a lot of players will still buy DLCs)
    due to the fact that the last message i got from Support was that they couldn't replicate the issue, and never replied since.

    so im done.

  29. Malware Master Engineer

    Even that is insulting to you?!? Having a different experience doesn't mean "better" you know. Just... different.

    I think it's better if you and I ignore each other from now on. We're clearly from completely different planets.

    Besides, once you start digging into the code for your modding you'll see what I'm talking about for yourself.

    I hope you get your problem fixed.
  30. Soup Toaster Apprentice Engineer

    Capt. Skull - Buddy, you really need to understand this: the programmers fixing the code and the artists creating the DLC content ARE TWO DIFFERENT GROUPS OF PEOPLE.

    The folks making DLC content do not have the technical skills to help debug the code, just like the coders don't have the technical skills to make new DLC models. THERE IS ZERO OVER LAP.

    The DLC team creates new blocks for the game in the exact same way as Joe Six-Pack from deepest darkest Alabama creates new blocks for the game. There is no involvement from the engine programming team in any way what-so ever.

    I can see that some are upset about the DLC price and frequency, but I prefer to look at it like a tip jar. Every once in a while Keen releases a bit of new stuff and I drop another fiver in the tip jar to support the company. I mean, five bucks won't even buy you a decent lunch, is it really so much to ask considering the insane number of hours so many of us have in the game?
    • Agree Agree x 1