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New Shield System Breaks PVP

Discussion in 'General' started by Bullet_Force, Sep 1, 2019.

  1. ObjectZero Apprentice Engineer

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    Well let me know what you find in the settings I'm betting that where we'll find any weak point in them.

    @Cyber Cheese if you are right and turret and the owner can fire weapons out of the safe zone that does make them pretty over powered. It would limit base attacks to the new base builds (aka new players) while the players that built up supplies would work within their safe zone.

    @Malware I think it has less to do with the jump drive and more with the max size a safe zone can be, from what I've found they can be 1km so if it's placed just right you should be able to jump a ship in to the window of space.
     
  2. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    I've been playing a single-player survival map for several days now and have made many, many jumps from one economy station to another (spawned by the game). Whereas I usually need to be several kilometers from an economy station before I can make a jump (it seems to vary based on something unknown by me at this time), most of my jumps to an economy station, even from as far away as 16,000 km in a single jump, will put me smack-dab inside the safe zone (unless the station is within a gravity well). Jumping to an asteroid still lands me about 1-1/2 km away no matter what I try.
     
    • Informative Informative x 2
  3. Malware Master Engineer

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    Well I would think it to be quite reasonable to disallow jumping both in and out of fields...
     
    • Agree Agree x 9
  4. Cyber Cheese Apprentice Engineer

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    The safe zone can be set to enable "shooting" while still disabling "damage." This will allow the owner to fire turrets and fixed weapons out while remaining invulnerable.

    You can also "filter" who can be inside the safe zone, and whose grids. If a ship tries to enter without permission, or their permission is revoked after they enter, they will be hurled several kilometers away at maximum speed. This can be used to "throw" grids (like player made weapons) out of the safe zone by giving them to nobody or the enemy.
    --- Automerge ---
    I agree with this at a minimum. It would be very handy if the safe zone API was available, so servers could more easily disable other things like welding, building, grinding, and shooting.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2019
  5. ObjectZero Apprentice Engineer

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    Okay this sound like something I could have a little fun with, broken? Yes. But still something a few of us could have a little short term fun with till they fix Safe Zones.
    --- Automerge ---
    Yup that seems pretty O.P. to me. I think shooting and damage should have been lumped in to one setting. No shooting in no shooting out, fair is fair.

    I still believe the jump drives shouldn't charge while in a safe zone, in addition to not being able to jump in to a safe zone.

    There needs to be some measure of risk on a PVP server other wise might as well play on a PVE.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. Lord Grey Apprentice Engineer

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    I just tried it out and Cyber Chees is right. With the right setting you can shoot out of the Zone while perfectly protected. That shouldn't be possible. If damage is set off, shooting shouldn't be possible. Or is there a reason why shooting with no damage makes sense?
     
  7. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    That's gotta be an unintended glitch. You shouldn't ever be able to weld, grind, drill, shoot, fart, pee, or poop while in a protected zone (wait, did someone just cut the Cyber Cheese?).
     
  8. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

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    It was my personal observation that zone chips were hard to procure commensurate to how long they last, so building and maintaining a shield safe zone was difficult and tedious. I likened the steep build-and-maintain curve to Armor Lock's 5 seconds. I did not see every game played and, apparently, neither did Keen.

    Clearly the problem was that the playtest did not last long enough. My observation was that it takes a long time for a single person to get a shield safe zone running. A group gets the job done faster, but perhaps there wasn't a lot of that on Keen's servers?

    I always thought being able to shoot inside a shield was considered lame in any game. When a player engaged Armor Lock they couldn't even move, much less shoot. I don't have an argument for how shooting from within a safe zone could be fair. Even people that want shields don't want that.

    Jumping out of a safe zone and, incredibly, jumping into a safe zone was never considered and probably never observed. My experience with jumping is that you can't jump any closer to a ship or station than 1 kilometer, which would be the maximum range of the safe zone. I can see allowing jumping into the safe zone of an NPC station, but not a player station.

    In consideration of the 1 kilometer range:
    I thought of safe zones as a place where everyone was forced to play nice while conducting business. They were safe because they were neutral. A player safe zone is not a neutral business center. It's a fortress, and any fortress I can fit my flagship in is... very generous.

    I'm actually on the fence, though, about whether that is good or bad.
     
  9. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    I think this latest update with safe zones should have also included an emote of a space engineer sticking his/her tongue out at everybody whilst safely ensconced in his/her safe zone.
     
    • Funny Funny x 4
  10. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

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    :pbjt:I've got a safe zone:pbjt:
    :carlton:nanner nanner boo boo:carlton:
     
  11. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    [​IMG]
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  12. Lord Grey Apprentice Engineer

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    Go to the setup of the safe zone. You can define what can enter and what not as mentioned above. Further you can set if Damage can be done, shooting is allowed, if building, welding, grinding is possible, if voxel hand can be used (for creative?) or landing gear can be locked.
    So the owner decides if you can fart, pee or poop. Not on my station, I tell you.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  13. ObjectZero Apprentice Engineer

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    @Stardriver907 agreed I thought they where more a middle ground for players to meet up and trade safely also to protect shared areas from random players trashing. Hiding is a safe zone all the time in a PVP server is like, hiding in your room cause all the people outside are scary.

    I still would like to see a player set a another large group of players to enemy while in their safe zone, just to see how far and fast it'll fling them. I wonder what it would do to players in a a closed room at the time....like a player on the toilet. I'm looking at you @Spaceman Spiff .

    Well now we can just hope they'll correct the safe zone settings.
     
  14. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    [​IMG]
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

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    Wait. They haven't explained why it's a feature and not a bug.
     
  16. Bullet_Force Apprentice Engineer

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    I've tried a few "PVP" servers wit this new shield thing enabled and you are right it's basically like playing PVE. The moment you go near an enemy base if they haven't got it on already they will switch it on and its game over. Nothing you can do. People have also been reporting it being used offensively on planets where other players would dig under an enemy base and then enable the shield which effectively pushes out the enemy players from their own base allowing for easy capture.
     
  17. captainbladej52 Apprentice Engineer

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    I will grant you one thing, I find it ironic that Keen claims they don't want to add shields, yet their solution to potential griefing is a block that looks and acts like a shield. Personally I think another solution should have been the answer but I don't fault them for doing what was easiest and giving folks another block to play with in game. I say that to put the point out there I get why some folks don't like the safe zone block. It's not the perfect solution but it's one that works.

    Now with that said, your first post just screams "I want to raid folks when they're offline and can't fight back." You say in your second post above that you're not interested in offline raids, but I have to be blunt based off other things you've said, I don't believe you. Clearly you do want to be able to raid people while they're offline as you want a 15 minute window before their safe zone can activate, once everyone is offline. So clearly you do at least want a small window where you can raid people who are offline and have no hope of fighting back.

    Also please define for us what "proper pvp" actually is. I suspect your definition of pvp and my definition will not be the same. The ideal definition of pvp in my book is a group of at least 2 people or teams of people facing off against each other for as equal of a starting position as possible. It will ultimately come down to skill and strategy instead of whoever has the biggest new shiny or biggest wallet. There may be distinct advantages in certain areas, but those advantages do not give an automatic "I win" button. Offline base raiding and a high level person ganking lower level people are NOT pvp in my book, but someone being a douchebag. If someone wants to fight me, then fight me while I'm online and there's just as much chance of someone getting their visor splintered with bullets as there is that person getting away. Otherwise raiding someone's base when they're offline reduces it to little more than a glorified pve encounter. Ganking doesn't per say apply in a game like SE, but for those games it does, all it does is make the person doing the ganking a douche because it's forcing their preferred style of play on the other person, and halts all ability of that person to progress because one person wants to be a tool. It's also very hard if not outright impossible to balance around pvp in a game like SE, as you're quite literally only limited by your imagination as to what you can build, and how much your hardware can support. This is why any game worth its weight trying to balance something will balance it around individual item performance and address any gamebreaking issues that arise. From there they will ship it off to the players and make it a player problem. Otherwise they're playing a game of 20,000 questions and qualifications and will get nowhere.

    The big reason that the safe zone functions the way it does is it's designed to prevent griefing and someone from being a douche and just destroying all the npc trading stations and denying folks the ability to interact with them. Again no, it's not perfect, but I would rather have it or a similar preventative than to not have it all. The safe zone was NOT made with pvp in mind, but to ensure folks playing with the economy feature enabled would be able to enjoy said feature and have a chance to interact with it. If that preventative "ruins pvp" then let pvp be left in the dumpster fire it is. The big problem you have is that you're essentially demanding other people not be allowed to use an option, or that the option change because YOU don't like it, and want to force "proper pvp" on people who have no interest in it. I've often found those advocating for "hardcore pvp" never really want true pvp, but a distinct advantage so huge that they're guaranteed to win. Your posts have solidified that position even more so for me. I agree with the others here, you are in the minority in regards to the kind of "pvp" you say you want. I don't mind pvp, but if I'm going engage in it, then it will be on my terms that I do so with the ability to opt out of it at any time. I play to have fun and enjoy myself. If I am not having fun playing a game or a particular game mode, then I will no longer be participating in it. In regards to people cheesing the zone to force people out of their own base without having to fight, that would be considered an exploit and definitely something that wasn't intended. That should definitely be addressed as all exploits like it should, however that's a completely different can of worms and has nothing to do with balancing.

    Lastly you won't get much sympathy from people here as there are already solutions to your problem. If you don't like the safe zones, then don't use them on the servers you are admin of. Otherwise if you connect to someone's server that is not your own, you can ask them not to allow safe zones, but they are under no obligation to oblige your request as it's their server. As much as I love the idea of shields being a part of the vanilla game, I would ALWAYS want there to be an option to disable them for servers that have no interest in using them. The same goes for a hunger system if that was ever to be implemented. I would most likely turn it off as I'm not a fan of such a system in SE. I'm a firm believer that pvp should never get to dictate to the entire game of everyone else. As for this game being a "survival game with pvp being an end goal," I'm going to strongly disagree there. While pvp is one possible thing that can occur in the game, there are plenty more such as myself who have little to no interest in pvp at all. For me it was marketed as survival with the possibility of random encounters and pvp if so desired. At the end of the day, aside from fixing exploits, I don't see them doing much when you can just disable the safe zone or not allow them to be used on your servers.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  18. Lord Grey Apprentice Engineer

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    Very well said, captainbladej52, or written. My comment further up did aim on PvP like Bullet_Force sees it, not on what you understand on PvP.
     
  19. ObjectZero Apprentice Engineer

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    Okay I feel a little bad that I get a little joy in the fact that it only took the SE players a few weeks to weaponize the "Safe Zone". I saw one server where they blocked off a section of another players base, basically stealing the base without even a shot fired.

    Though now I wonder what happens when two Safe zones over lap? If you're in two safe zone at the same time and one allows you and one does not which one overrides the other? Is it even possible to over lap them? I mean it really wouldn't take much to build one really fast and set it up.

    @Stardriver907 Oh you are right sorry, I'm jumping the gun.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  20. captainbladej52 Apprentice Engineer

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    That's something that in any other game (and probably this one as well) as an exploit and needs to be fixed. That's a completely different ballgame from the other arguments that have been suggested here.
     
  21. Bullet_Force Apprentice Engineer

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    I am just laughing hard at this silly PVE feature being used in a PVP way against what are probably PVE players playing on some 'safe' server. It's a case of the chickens coming home to roost :woot:
     
  22. captainbladej52 Apprentice Engineer

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    Using something that is clearly an exploit isn't something to be proud of, and all the more reason why in my book "sup3r l33t hardcor3 pvp" is a cancer to modern gaming that needs to be eradicated. Congratulations, they used what would be classified pretty much universally as a cheat. All the more reason I hope that kind of thing gets patched out of existence soon enough.
     
  23. Bullet_Force Apprentice Engineer

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    It's not cheating its called being creative with the tools given. It's legitimate gameplay in my books.
     
  24. captainbladej52 Apprentice Engineer

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    If a gravity drive is considered an exploit, then cheesing the safe zone like that is certainly an exploit. Cheating and cheesing exploits is not something to be proud of and would get you banned in virtually every other game out there, and quite a few servers here on SE. First time someone tried that crap on any of my servers, they would be perma banned instantly. If you have to exploit in order to win then you have no business in online gameplay. Then again I'm not sure what I expected from someone who all but admits they want to grief people while they're offline.
     
  25. RkyMtnDude Apprentice Engineer

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    Using a feature for it's unintended use to gain advantage is called an exploit. Using said exploit is cheating the game design. You will probably find that overall, most people feel this way except those that like to cheat or "game" the system for that special "tee Hee Hee" moment. You seem to be writing your own books on the new ethics of game play. I imagine book sales are sorta low except within a "certain" crowd. I guess part of my issue is I come from a gaming world where you used to sit across from each other at a table. Nowadays people gank each other from the comfort of their homes and feel no concern at all for the other persons gaming experience because you don't have to look them in the eye.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  26. Bullet_Force Apprentice Engineer

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    Well I wouldn't be playing on your server because in that case I would be playing on a PVE server, in any case this is neither cheating or an exploit. You simply put a shield near someones base and switch it on. All you are doing is enabling the shield, just like turning on any other block in the game.

    It's not a great gameplay mechanic sure but neither is having an unbeatable shield...
    --- Automerge ---
    The ability to activate the shield at any time is an intended feature, I don't personally like it but it seems a lot of PVE folks love it so oh well what you can do..

    You need to update to modern PVP standards. I reckon a few weeks of 'training' with my crew on an ARK Official PVP server would quickly snap you out of these outdated customs.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  27. RkyMtnDude Apprentice Engineer

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    Meh.... I don't like honorless gaming. it's sorta like road raging. Serves only one. and not very well at that.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  28. captainbladej52 Apprentice Engineer

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    I allow pvp within reason on my servers when it's requested.

    In this instance, it actually is cheating and was mentioned on their streams they do NOT want that sort of thing happening as it's an exploit. So once again yes, it is an exploit.

    Activating it anytime one desires as long as it has power and zone chips is indeed intended. What is NOT intended is cheesing it to shove people out of their own base as said above.

    As for "updating to modern pvp standards," that's not an argument you want to go with as ARK is an exception and not the rule. The general rule for "modern pvp" is everyone starts from as equal of a playing field as possible with no one being allowed an advantage that amounts to an automatic "i win" button.

    The thing you need to understand is you are the MINORITY of folks who want "modern pvp" as you call it. Also who the heck are you to think you get to decide for everyone else in game that a block has to change purely because YOU have decided YOU don't like it? Bottom line the safe zone was not made with pvp in mind, and they have said that using the safe zone to take over bases was a concern and something they didn't want happening on stream. so yes it is an exploit and something that is NOT intended. You can try to justify it all you want but it's not something to be proud of. The more you keep pushing for this "modern pvp" as you call it, the more you just solidify my position, and I"m willing to be quite a few others, in not wanting it.
     
  29. hippybaker Trainee Engineer

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    I kinda like Gravity Drives... off subject,but...

    I like the way they actually FORCE you to engineer thrust based on your ships center of gravity.

    I often see a debate about thrusters having enough thrust, or tiered thrusters, or bigger thrusters for vanilla... GDs are a solution one has to engineer, rather than paste a zillion thrusters on the beautiful lines of your ship.. ships fly off twisting and turning, full speed, like a booger flicked by the finger of Clang.

    The argument that GDs are not balanced can be countered with the difficulty in setting them up in any useful sort of way beyond having an escape skingshot.

    And they're cool and warp-drivey.

    If you're in a room with a GD and it's running, doing shit, you WILL die. That's pretty cool.

    .. AND the JRGD? like total amazeballz.



    I like GD's just fine.

    ..Just sayin'
     
  30. captainbladej52 Apprentice Engineer

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    Difficulty in setting up a gravity drive doesn't make it any less of an exploit anymore than the difficulty in supergridding makes it less of an exploit. Both are exploits and have been said as much by Keen. Thus they need to be exterminated with extreme prejudice.