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New Shield System Breaks PVP

Discussion in 'General' started by Bullet_Force, Sep 1, 2019.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Cyber Cheese Apprentice Engineer

    NPC safe zones are not the subject of this thread. The mod my server is currently working on would only affect players.

    As to your other points:

    1) No, 8 hours doesn't guarantee the target can come back online. Without the safe zone API being available, my server's options are limited. What I would like instead is for the system to have two separate, one hour long phases where the "hacker" block has to be within 2.5 k of the target. In between those phases, I would want the target safe zone to be locked down to prevent any ships from entering or leaving. And those phases would be separated by a minimum of 8 hours, and a maximum of 36 hours, with the second phase starting 30 minutes after the safe zone owner logs in (or after 36 hours, whichever is sooner). However, the lockdown part of this equation is not easily modded right now. 8 hours is already too long to defend the hacker, so it's more of a proof of concept until some kind of lockdown phase can be implemented.

    2) The hacker block my server is currently designing posts its own GPS to the entire server, meaning that it will probably be under constant attack.

    3) The current plan is that the hacker must be more than 1 km but less than 2.5 km from any safe zone to affect it, and won't function if it is within 1 km of any safe zone. (And safe zones are reduced in size a bit so they cannot cover a functional hacker.)
    You don't need to destroy an inhibitor in 10 seconds, you can take as long as you want. Similarly, the hacker block is going to be vulnerable for hours. This is a false equivalency. But I don't hate the idea of forcing the inhibitor to have line of sight (not being armored) so that the target can make a pinpoint strike to release themselves.
    Keen's servers are the worst. They run at like .6 sim when nothing is happening, make it extremely easy to find people's bases, and of course they have every bug including broken missiles and desyncing ships.
    I don't know that to be true, but I also am not convinced you all even agree with each other on what "griefing" means. The most common solutions I know of are:

    1) fixing respawn so bases cannot be found easily and enabling infinite world,

    2) faction safe zones mod, set to offline protection (i.e., shields)

    3) whitelist or steam group settings, so you can vet people before they can join and break stuff.

    None of those methods are really perfect in my view, but I don't know what you all mean by "griefing."
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2019
  2. captainbladej52 Apprentice Engineer

    You just dodged the question. How exactly would you prevent this from being used against NPC safe zones as well? What safeguards would you put into the code etc? Yes I'm aware the primary focus is player safe zones, but I'm going to give you a tip in regards to mod/map development or anything really. Always ask yourself when making something or designing something that could give a distinct advantage or change the balance of power for the map, "how can this feature/thing be abused". The first thing folks are typically going to do is see how much they can abused it and how much they can push it to its limits. based off some of your descriptions of what you want said hacker block to do, you've clearly not thought that out.

    That at least takes care of part of your problem.

    Again no, 1 billion times a day for all of eternity no. You're essentially asking for something that could trap people in their base and not give them a chance of fighting back. "Oh you logged in to your base but sorry you're on lockdown, guess you'll have to find another way to destroy the block or just turn off your zone." WAY WAY WAY too much potential for abuse here. Folks would simply cheese the block to keep entire factions stuck in their base and never able to leave and it would turn the hacker block into a prison block. Not only that but if someone logged out in an area outside their safe zone, you've essentially stolen their base from them using the same tactics you claim to not like. So again you're basically asking for something that can lock people in or out of their base and not give them an ability to fight back. Oh you and your ship are in the zone, yeah too bad. Again 1 billion times no. If you really can't see how that would be abused then you need to slow down and do a little more critical thinking before hand. I'm not a Keen dev by any means but I could see how that would be abused from a mile away and I'm willing to be the rest of the community can as well. If you want something like that keep it on your own server and leave the rest of us out of it.

    Honestly dude, you need to go back to the drawing board and think out some of these issues a bit more slowly.

    Now I know you're grasping at straws because that's not what I said at all. What I said was:

    ^ That is what I actually said in context. I was not saying you had only 10 seconds to knock out the inhibitor. I was straight up calling out the hypocrisy of your logic. You had just lamented how you hated that people could hide jump drives behind a bunch of armor and you couldn't take them out in less than 10 seconds. Overall you complained about how the jump drive had no counter. You then want to create an inhibitor block that itself can be put behind a bunch of armor and itself having no counter. So again no it doesn't work that way. If everything needs a counter, that includes your jump drive inhibitor. Simply "fly out of range or blow it up" are not valid counters. That's just you wanting to force people to play with you and the way you want them to. Again it doesn't work like that and you are not so important that you get to dictate or force the entire game's playerbase to eat a change to a block or have to deal with overpowered and broken blocks just to suit your tastes. No it doesn't work like that. As much as I love the thought of energy shields being made vanilla at some point, I would NEVER want them to be forced to be on at all times. That would definitely be something there would need to be a toggle for. Now if I want to create my own shield mod, or use an existing one, until that day does come shields are made vanilla, I have that option. Likewise your best option that I've been telling you, Stardriver has been telling you, and for that matter even Malware has been telling you guys is to disabled the safe zone, and/or mod the crap out of stuff to your liking. It's beyond arrogant and entitled to expect the entire game to change the way it can use certain blocks just to suit your tastes. Your options are to disable the safe zone, mod the crap out of your stuff, and/or create rules for your own servers. If you need help, folks are willing to show you how to do it. What we're not going to do is eat a bunch of changes to how our servers work and play just to suit your tastes.
  3. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

    To be clear, what I don't like or want is for Keen to put whizbang handwavium technology in the standard (vanilla) game. Having the game take place in the not-too-distant future adds to the unique flavor of the game. The more flashy eye-candy inexplicable tech they put in the game, the less unique it becomes. I have no problem whatsoever with people that would like to play the game using shields. The mods are already out there. Based upon observations, it appears to me that the way SE plays means players will often come to the conclusion that shields in and of themselves do not add any value to the game, so you have to either "up the ante" by inserting even more unlikely tech, or remove the shields. Option two seems to be the more popular choice.

    With respect to griefing, others have found non-shield solutions
    We all agree griefing means causing grief, usually by destroying someone's work in such a manner that they cannot stop it or retaliate.

    A few months ago griefing was the topic of at least two threads. The threads started off with a lot of hand-wringing about "what to do," but eventually several people posted that griefing was not the game-killing problem some were making it out to be. There appears to be quite a bit that server admins can do, and the community has a role to play as well. Suffice it to say that public open unmonitored servers will not benefit from any technical fix from Keen or anyone else. Servers where the admins and the players take measures to combat griefing generally will not need a technical fix. As I said previously, griefing has been around longer than Space Engineers. No other developer has found a good technical solution, and Keen's solution is not new. It's like hitting your hand with a hammer so you'll forget you have a headache. I applaud them for trying. I applaud them for wanting to try. I fear that getting wrapped up in trying to make it work will distract them from more important issues. They are more likely to solve the piston/rotor dilemma than the griefing one.

    I'm fairly certain that the player safe zone will not go away. The shimmery bubble is here to stay. I don't actually see Keen taking it out after they worked so hard to get it in. The best thing I can see happening is the ability to disable the zone chips or the zone block itself. Anything else would be a waste of time. That being said, I would not be surprised to see some hotfixes along the lines of Cyber Cheese's suggestions, and players will have to suffer through the results. Sometimes these things just have to happen.

    There's that quote that shows up in the loading screen about learning how something works by watching it come apart.

    Don't forget your safety goggles ;)
  4. captainbladej52 Apprentice Engineer

    Our ideas as to what is considered hand-wavium varies as we've been through before. SE is unique enough to stand on its own with or without shields. Simply because some games may occasionally share similar bits and features doesn't make the rest of the game any less unique. There's only so many times and ways you can re-invent the wheel. As for the rest of that it's moot and subjective opinion. Withat that said, I still hope at some point there will be a vanilla version. However the topic of shields is one for a different day.

    In regards to griefing, not every server or even every game experiences the same type of griefing, and as such there is no universal solution to griefing. As tech advances and new games come out there will always be new ways discovered to grief which in turn means there will need to be solutions to those griefers and their griefing. The only way to know for certain who is going to try to grief or not would be to have one of the infinity stones and read minds, be a betazoid from star trek, or similar types of stuff. This is why a varied set of tools is needed. Some solutions involve things like the safe zone and some don't. As far as to what works best depends on the game/group in question and their individual needs. There is no one size fits all approach that will work, as much as we all may wish it were that simple. The safe zone addresses a specific type of griefing that can occur in SE and while it's not perfect, because no such system is, it does fairly well at what it does. I would rather have it than not have it at this point.

    I wish we didn't even need to have discussions about this kind of stuff but sadly it's a discussion that needs to be had within the community. I really hope it doesn't pull too much away from other projects but if it does, then the fault lies with the griefers for being douchebags and not with Keen. In which case it's the griefers who should bear the full brunt of the community's wrath.

    I'll agree with him on a couple of points, I don't think the exploity bits I named should exist, and if those bits get patched out then I'm cool with that. I don't think folks should be jumping into or out of the bubble because it's basically trying to have a ship pass through a wall at faster than lightspeed which won't end well unless one of them is a Super Solid if you're familiar with that theory. I also don't think folks should be able to shoot out of the bubble or fling things out of the bubble like has been described. Stuff like that would be an exploit in any other game in existence out there today and I don't see why SE would or should be an exception.
  5. Cyber Cheese Apprentice Engineer

    Two ways. First, conventional NPC safe zones are actually admin safe zones, so just turning the block off won't work because there is not a block.

    Second, NPC's are from a specific library of factions. My server's prototype mod just does not work if the target is in one of those factions.
    No, they would have 2 hours to fight back. Maybe I explained this proposal wrong. The first hour to fight back is at the initial attack, and the second hour is the earlier of 30 minutes after they log in (so long as it begins at least 8 hours later) or 36 hours after the initial attack.

    And obviously any way to make the lockdown continuous would need to be ironed out of the logic. The whole point is that there should be a way to fight back when both attacker and defender can realistically get online. The lockdown only prevents the target from escaping during the interim so that the attacker doesn't have to man a blockade (and defend against the rest of the server) while they wait for the target to get online.
    But there is no contradiction there. If I have an uninhibited jump drive, I can end the fight unilaterally in 10 seconds. If I have an inhibitor, I cannot end the fight--I can only disable the jump drive. Nor is there just a 10 second window for the inhibitor to be destroyed; the target can take their time and get rid of it.

    In any event, as I said multiple times, I am not opposed to requiring line of sight. In fact, the more popular tractor beam mods require line of sight so they cannot be buried under armor.
    Considering they have fixed armor skins, economy, suit skins, and safe zone blocks all before fixing missiles, I think Keen's priorities are totally backwards.
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2019
  6. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

    Space Engineers may not be totally unique (and since unique is an absolute, I shouldn't even be able to write that sentence), but name another space game that takes place in our current century. Only one I can think of is KSP, which is a fantasy game that uses NASA technology. To the best of my knowledge, there are no shields in KSP. Every other space game, as with every Sci-Fi TV show and movie, takes place hundreds or more years from now just so they don't have to explain the tech (It's the future. We can do that now). Trying to make a space game that exists in this current century is hard. It's way more work. In the far future, all technical problems are solved by future tech, so when something happens you just give a verbal command if your systems just don't take care of it automatically. Anyone could make a space game with those "anything goes" rules. Making a game where it doesn't work that way, that takes talent. Ships getting dented up while mining? Hey, just get rid of drills altogether and invent a beam that can remove ore without touching anything else. Ship crashes on planets because you misjudged how many engines you need? Screw that. Just teleport to the surface. It's really easy to disguise magic as tech since Heinlein said tech and magic are indistinguishable. So, bring on the magic. Why bother exhibiting true skill by doing it the hard way. There are apparently not enough cookie-cutter space games. In fact, just remove the word "engineers" from the title. Everything should just work.

    Except that what it actually seems to be doing is exchanging one sort of griefing for another. "Fixes" will just create even more opportunities. We're talking about griefers here. They live for technical solutions that would have people believe they can leave things unattended. What greater grief than to log on and find out your technical solution didn't work. What griefers tend to do is make it clear that you will not be able to run a server on auto-pilot and expect nothing to happen. The ones that admit that they grief will tell you that what they are doing is exposing weaknesses in the system. They believe that if you don't know how to stop them, you don't deserve to be able to play. Any time you try to rely on a technical solution, you just give them fresh meat.

    No. Keen shouldn't be part of the solution. Their job is to produce a well-running bug-free game with as few exploits as possible. Griefing is a community problem because it is tolerated and sometimes even encouraged. Some griefers actually stream their griefing live. Got a technical solution for that?

    Not backwards. Just different from yours. Difference is they don't tell you how to fix your game ;)
  7. captainbladej52 Apprentice Engineer

    I had to ask because folks will always find a way if possible. I can't give details on all the weird ways that I never thought in a million years folks could exploit certain items cause NDA but yeah. Let's just say some of them would have you wanting to slam your head against a wall repeatedly like it did me thinking "how the frak did you even find that let alone think to try it."

    If nothing gets in or out during the lockdown then how are folks supposed to fight back? If the defender gets on first, then he will either be stuck in his base and unable to exit the bubble or get back into the bubble if he was logged out without being inside the bubble. So if he gets on before the attacker, then the defender is pretty much locked out from doing anything and has to wait for the other guy. That lockout would be so abused it's not even funny. I see nothing to stop the attacker from triggering the lockout and then logging out just to be "that guy". Again no one is so important they get to force others to wait around on them like that. The target escaping is the attacker's problem and if he/she does their job right, they won't have to worry. If said target does get away, that's the attacker's problem, not that of the game or block.

    As is right now from what you've said here, all this would do is allow people to lock down bases with a cheesy mechanic that has no business existing in any game, let alone this one. I've seen the term balance come up quite a bit, and something like that proposed lockdown is the most unbalanced thing I've seen in awhile.

    As I pointed out in the other thread, I was not saying the inhibitor itself must be destroyed in 10 seconds. Read it again slowly. I will explain exactly how the logic contradicts itself that you've been using. You have complained that the jump drive is supposedly an uncounterable thing and can be hidden under a ton of heavy armor, and how it can't be destroyed or disabled in a reasonable time frame. At the same time you want an inhibitor block that can just straight up shut off enemy jump drives and can be hidden under heavy armor, with no way to stop it save to destroy it or get out of range. At the same time you've criticized the jump drive only being able to be stopped by destroying it. So you complain about the jump drive not having a counter beyond just disabling or destroying it, yet you've asked for an inhibitor that itself, could only be stopped by disabling or destroying it or flying out of range. In other words you're cool with the inhibitor not having a counter similar to a scattering field block that I mentioned elsewhere, but the jump drive absolutely needs a counter? It's contradictory logic that doesn't solve the thing you say is an issue, something without a counter, and simply moves it from one block to another. Without a counter of its own, the inhibitor is now the uncounterable block you lamented the jump drive for being. Thus if you truly mean it when you say "everything needs a counter" then that would also include the inhibitor.

    So you're not having to swap between the topics as much I will repeat the specs for the scattering field. The block would allow one active jump drive to operate in a limited capacity. This drive can be utilized to perform a short range jump of no more than 20km, which still puts them in sensor range. If the jump is utilized it completely drains the charge of any active jump drives on the ship at the time and they have to be recharged as though a full jump was made. So the scattering filed couldn't be completely hidden at least part of the block would have to stick out and be "exposed to the field" in order to scatter it, similar to how oxygen farms need to be exposed partially to generate air. As an optional bit, the scattering field could only be maintained for 2 minutes or 120 seconds before having to recharge again. The amount of time it takes to recharge would be based off the amount of jump drives active on the ship. Each active jump drive would require it to take 15 seconds to charge per drive it effected up to a maximum of 10 minutes, with a minimum 5 minute recharge time. If the scattering field is destroyed while a jump is in progress, the jump will still go through and drain the power as though the block was still active. The inhibitor would be expensive to produce with the scattering field being even more expensive still than the inhibitor. The counter to the scattering field is that without the inhibitor, it has no reason to exist. Activating the scattering field while not in the presence of an inhibitor field will put the block on cooldown and it will still grant its effect like normal, but will not drain the jump drives since there is no inhibitor field active, but will still grant its normal effect if it contacts an inhibitor field while the scattering field is active. So it has no reason to exist without the inhibitor, has a minimum of a 5 minute charge up after use, is only active for 2 minutes or 120 seconds, and drains power of all active jump drives if in the presence of an inhibitor field and a jump is used.

    Asking Keen to add a single block a ton of folks want is not the same thing as redoing the entire game to be more cookie cutter. This statement of yours is hyperbole. But again we've been through this.

    Like I said before, there is no one size fits all solution to griefing. There is also no exclusively tech or other initiative that exists that will stop all griefing. This is because not all games or groups experience the same kind of griefing or even in the same way. Thus different groups and games will need to tailor their response to griefing to fit their particular brand of it. Your line of logic suggests that since we can never completely eliminate griefing that there is no point in trying, which I wholly disagree with. Griefing may never be stamped out completely, but it can be kept to the absolute most bare minimum. If a technical something is being abused to grief, then that technical item should be patched. If it's a community issue, then the community should address it. If I as a game developer see that one of my items is being abused and I can fix it to stop some griefing, I'm going to do it, because it's not fair for me as the developer to just let that keep happening, otherwise I'm no better than the griefer. This is not suggesting that games should always be focused 100% on anti-griefing. What it is suggesting is that if they can alleviate some of it, then they should.

    Like I just said above I'm not advocating Keen focus 100% on anti-griefing at all times. What I am suggesting is that if there is something they can do while they're developing features and such, they should do so. If it's purely a community thing and people just being douchebags, then yes I agree it falls to the community to handle it. If a technical item is being abused to do it, then it ceases to be purely a community problem. If the company can patch or fix that technical item, they owe it to their community to do so. If they can fix it and alleviate the problem while they're still developing other stuff, why should they not? To simply let it sit would be to let them keep abusing something. You will never find a perfect solution as such as solution requires an intellect such as that of God, Zeus, Q, or your other choice of higher power. However if something can be done to minimize the griefing, it should absolutely be done, otherwise it's just enabling. It's just like anti-virus softwares and such. You'll never stamp out all viruses and malware completely, but it can be kept to an extreme minimum.
  8. Cyber Cheese Apprentice Engineer

    No, I think I am not explaining this right. The goal is to give the attacker control over the timing of the first phase, and the defender control over the timing of the second phase.

    So let's imagine you are defending your base against me. I know you are a night owl so I start the attack in the early morning while you are offline. For 1 hour, the whole server can see I am trying to hack a base, so I have to defend my hacker for an hour--but maybe that's easy because you are offline. After the one hour, I can pack up and leave because your base will be locked down for at least 8 hours.

    However, if you log in 8 hours or more later, your base will only stay locked down for another 30 minutes. At the end of 30 minutes, if I am not there with the hacker, you are back to being fully functional and safe. If I am there with the hacker, the lock down ends and you have one hour to do what you want before your safe zone is forced down. (During this one hour, you could evacuate, attack the hacker, or some combination, all with the benefit of the safe zone.)

    Make sense?
    No. I want the inhibitor to be escapable, just not so easy as pressing a button and surviving 10 seconds. I responded in some more detail in the other thread.
  9. captainbladej52 Apprentice Engineer

    In this instance I am still locked in my base or out of my base. Either way I'm sitting there twiddling my thumbs unable to do anything. Either way I'm getting locked out of my base or locked in which is an automatic no go for me. And either way from what I'm reading here there is nothing I can do once the hack has been completed. So it's still back to my original point of why have safe zones at that point. This is still way way WAY overpowered the way you're saying.
  10. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

    One ton of folks = about twelve folks. A single block can indeed move the game closer to mediocre.

    You should disagree with that. Fortunately for me, that's not my line of logic. Ceasing pursuit of a technical solution =/= ceasing pursuit of a solution.

    Agreed. However, the solution should not present another way to grief. If it does, then it's not a solution.

    @Cyber Cheese , the jump drive has been around since 2015. PvP in SE has been around since the game came into existence. The drive got a few hotfixes and then has remained untouched. 16 pages, 473 posts and a whopping 130,970 views and no one called it OP or game-breaking. What changed?
  11. Cyber Cheese Apprentice Engineer

    Comments on the change log notwithstanding, there have been people suggesting the use of inhibitors or that jump drives cause problems with combat before. E.g. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Of course none of those are the admins of the servers I mentioned elsewhere that went through the trouble of designing or implementing a counter for the block because of the severity of the problem.

    It also is the result of the planet update. Jump drives make perfect sense if you think of this as a game where you only have to fight on planets, which plenty of PvP players are content with. And I like having jump drives, I just want them to be less powerful in combat.
  12. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

    For those that aren't going to bother to look, one two and three are forum threads, only one of which went past two pages, and all of them are a bit old, indicating that this has been hashed over long ago. The last two are suggestions on the support site, each with only a few likes, and only the fifth one actually has a comment:

    "The question is: Is the game more enjoyable for most players if they can make that last second escape or if they can actually finish their opponents off. Considering how long it takes to build large ships in survival, I wouldn't be surprised if a short delay was entirely deliberate, to allow players to "cut their losses"."

    I'm not suggesting that no one has ever suggested that jump drives might be a problem for PvP. I am suggesting that no significant portion of the community has a problem with the way jump drives work. The thing about jump drives is that you are either like me and see them as a necessary evil, or you see them as a tremendous asset that let's you get from planet to planet in a decent amount of time.

    If you were to say to the average player that someone can jump away before they can be attacked, their likely reply would be, "Hell yeah. Good thing, too, cause Keen's thrusters can't get me out of the way fast enough!" The average SE player does not think of jumping away as "getting out of jail free." They think of it more like "not getting my ship that I spent two weeks on getting all shot up and needing three weeks of repair IF I can find enough resources." They probably don't really care what you think about them.

    Now, if they were looking for a fight and found one, only to find themselves outmatched and clearly about to lose, they might jump away if they have a functional drive. From their perspective, what you think about them or what method they used to avoid further damage is of little consequence. Unless both sides agreed beforehand that the battle would be a duel to the death, leaving the battlefield to fight another day is just as legitimate as staying and taking your lumps, just harder to brag about.

    A wise man once sang, "You have to know when to hold em, when to fold em, when to walk away, when to run."

    Now, this shield that Keen has provided is exactly what some players have been asking for, and it clearly has been causing problems for the players that didn't ask for it. Does anyone honestly believe that a "solution" from Keen that will "fix" the "jump drive problem" will fare better?
  13. Malware Master Engineer

    This is the problem with discussions like this, or at least where people are just using their own experience to determine whether a lot of people want a thing or not (regardless of "side"): Like attracts like. So if you like shields, hate shields, or the jump drive, or the safe zone, chances are the people around you, on the same servers as you, who you see and interact with, will have similar opinions to you. This provides a rather powerful illusion that "everybody" has the same opinion as you and the "opposition" is the minority. Thus, one actually needs statistics to make an accurate judgment if this, because personal observation is unlikely to be accurate. We don't have those statistics (Keen does).

    Of course, one can use logic to a certain limited degree but that only goes so far.
    • Agree Agree x 2
  14. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

    I generally try to actually appeal to the portion of the community that is on the fence. I ask players that think shields might be a good idea to either find a server that has them or download a mod and see for themselves. That's why I asked for a list of servers and links to mods with respect to jump drive inhibitors. People should experience the game with the mods in place and then ask themselves if this is something that just has to be made standard. I am confident that the majority will conclude that the base game would not be enhanced, but I am also prepared to be wrong. I'm saying there's a way to find out if such changes will actually make the game more "fun" for the majority We certainly won't be able to get a definitive answer by bickering.
  15. mojomann71 Senior Engineer

    Is pretty much a moot point. Like has been said those who love it think they are right those who hate them think they are right.

    All I can say is try to enjoy the game for all it does offer that you do like.
    • Agree Agree x 2
  16. Soup Toaster Apprentice Engineer

    I should just let this thread stay dead, but I think it's kind of hilarious that for years builders were getting griefed by destroyers (and complaining), and now the destroyers are getting greifed by the builders and there's more complaining. Not being entirely critical actually, I think the safezone needs some tweaking, just thought the turn-about was funny.

    Though, builders were always told "just deal with it, find a solution, you know, run and hide", and now destroyers are being told "just deal with it, find a solution, you know, go bother someone else".

    Will there ever be balance to the force?

    Yes, there will be a chosen one.

    His name will be Anakin.

    And dude, he's gonna fix everything. TRUST ME. It's aaallllll gonna be f- wait, he DID WHAT TO THE YOUNGLINGS?!?!
    • Funny Funny x 4
    • Like Like x 1
  17. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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