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Not the MMO then. Now what?

Discussion in 'General' started by MaxPlanck, Sep 9, 2013.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. MaxPlanck Trainee Engineer

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    "After finishing Miner Wars 2081, we could have proceeded with a sequel or an MMO, but we felt that first we need to focus on construction and sandbox mechanics, integrate them into our VRAGE engine, build a game that represents them in a best possible way - “Space Engineers” and then reuse them in our future games: a sequel to Miner Wars 2081, an MMO or something else."

    What happens now, to those of us who already put money down for the MMO?
    Will we recieve 'Space Engineers' instead?
    Will we get a refund?
    Will we have to wait an unspecified amount of time for the 'future game which may be the MMO or something else'?

    I would really like to know this, if you could please answer.


     
  2. Gishank Trainee Engineer

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    Indeed, I was certainly curious about this as the tone of the announcement suggests that the MMO isn't happening. Space Engineers does look good, but I was looking forward to the MMO varient of Miner Wars. :p
     
  3. Kynes Trainee Engineer

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    Yup, I want to know as well. At this point I would like a refund if we are not getting the MMO any time soon.
     
  4. pete09 Trainee Engineer

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    The message as I read it does not say there won't be any MMO. They just want to take some time to actually make this MMO even better and they want to start with <em style="line-height: 20px; background-color: #f7f7f7;">focusing on construction and sandbox mechanics.</em> And now after I watched pre-alpha footage I am willing to give it to them, since the game looks great. :cool:
     
  5. smoker93 Apprentice Engineer

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    How i understood it is that space engineers is a project that is basically laying out the frame work for the MMO.

    And as marek says that this has been the by product of 4 peoples work and the studio had 20 when they were actively making miner wars 2081.

    So there are still some people working at other. projects maybe the MMO
     
  6. pete09 Trainee Engineer

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    Well that is an interesting idea. Maybe you're right, but what if they just want to evolve this game into MMO later? I would be much excited. Better take it by small steps then develop a huge project at once and fail. But as I said, the game looks great so far and I have my money ready.:)
     
  7. MaxPlanck Trainee Engineer

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    I don't understand how you came to that conclusion.
    Look at the quote again:

    "After finishing Miner Wars 2081, we could have proceeded with a sequel or an MMO, but we felt that first we need to focus on construction and sandbox mechanics, integrate them into our VRAGE engine, build a game that represents them in a best possible way - “Space Engineers” and then reuse them in our future games: a sequel to Miner Wars 2081, an MMO or something else."


    It states that they decided not to proceed with a sequel or an mmo, but instead, to focus on integrating sandbox and construction mechanics into the engine. It also talks about a future game, which may be a sequel, an MMO or something else. Clearly, it hasn't been decided yet.
    Note that I'm not calling it an unwise decision, I'm certain they had their reasons.

    But... The MMO is supposed to be released in Q4 of this year, this is obviously not going to happen.
    I would love for the developers to give us some info or to comment on this. Not because I am impatient, but because it would be the decent thing to do.

    They owe it to the people who trusted them when they didn't have a single game released, the people who gave them money on nothing but a promise in their difficult start-up phase.
     
  8. George.Mamakos Apprentice Engineer

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    We understand that you have questions about the MMO project. We are planning to post more info during this week (FAQ).
     
  9. Traijan Trainee Engineer

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    Well to be quite honest, it feels more and more like they overstated what they could actually accomplish with regards to the MMO. I have this nagging feeling at the back of my brain that says that the try to quietly sweep the MMO under the rug until it's forgotten.


    Certainly for all customers involved I would hope that this nagging feeling is incorrect, but really only time will tell, plus with the way that this developer seems to twist their words around and how they have their own definitions of some words that are not exactly described that way in the dictionary makes it seem like the MMO if it comes out at all will be a long time coming.

    After all, if you wait long enough eventually people just forget.
     
  10. Teod Trainee Engineer

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    The term "MMO" is pretty vague to start with. We shouldn't ask if it's an MMO, instead we should ask: How big the world can be? How many players can it handle at once? Will we be able to host our own servers with specific rules?
     
  11. smoker93 Apprentice Engineer

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    Indeed. these days a game with 15vs15 matches can be called a MMO as long as the game holds millions of players aka world of tanks.
     
  12. MaxPlanck Trainee Engineer

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    Well, according to KSH:

    "Owing to the "massive" amount of work that goes into an MMOG, this expansion is to be released about 12 months after the Miner Wars 2081 release. The MMO will feature the kind of complexity, freedom and scale one should expect from a traditional massive multi-player game."

    So there's that.


     
  13. necktornyc Trainee Engineer

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    Can't wait, this looks very exciting
     
  14. DevilDude Trainee Engineer

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    So, I showed up here because of the Space Engineers project, maybe I'm biased, but I think you need to brush up on your reading comprehension.



    In the above section you put all your emphasis on the wrong thing, the word I bolded is what you should be looking at. What they're saying here is that they don't have the resources to develop an MMO along traditional lines. They don't, I looked. According to their posted info they started with volunteers in 2011 and have only been a real company for ~1 &amp; 1/2 years, they're own linkedin page puts the company at less 11-50 people, that would have to include not only devs but accountants managers and others, that's not enough people to do the job of making an MMO in the traditional fashion.

    What it looks to me like they're doing is a sort of segmented development. They have an idea of what an MMO should look like in the setting they've come up with. They made Miner Wars:2081 and Miner Wars: Arena to be elements of the larger project they want to implement. If I'm right then Space Engineers would be yet another element to the project.

    I was thinking of using a similar strategy myself, but abandoned the idea due to my own concepts being not suitable. But the strategy I think is a good one. By segmenting development of the elements necessary to form an MMO into discreet games that utilize a common engine, and likely a unified framework, they can keep themselves in business while still developing the assets they need to make the eventual MMO.

    What you have to keep in mind, is not what you want, not even what they said they want, but what is possible. In business, especially in project management, there is a basic rule you must keep in mind when making any decision. In any project there are three elements, speed, cost, and quality, you can only ever have two. In software development quality and speed are fairly self explanatory, but price refers to investment, this means the number of developers you can assign to the project. If you want the product fast, you must increase the price or reduce the quality. If quality is your objective, you must increase the price, or extend the development period. If price is your driver, you must reduce the quality, or extend the development time.

    If we then look at Keen's resources it becomes immediately apparent that they don't have a large number of developers on staff. This means that without outside investment Price automatically becomes one of the two elements they have to maintain. Therefore the the only elements of the project that can be compromised on are speed, and quality. You can change this equation, but the change comes with an additional price, because you alter the balance by adding resources via outside investment. By soliciting outside investment Keen would make itself answerable to those investors, and since their ultimate goal is an MMO what do you think those investors would demand?

    I can tell you. It would be one of two demands: Either Space WoW; or F2P/P2Win IOS/Android/Mobile/Casual/Angrybirdspacefarmville. This isn't necessarily inevitable, but it is the most likely outcome of inviting investment in a small studio, it happens a lot.

    Rather than scream when they don't do make the things they don't have the resources to make, in the frankly absurd time frame you're expecting. It might be a better idea to encourage them to find creative ways to make the games you'd like to see, and not join the ranks of companies making games you don't want for money you don't have.
     
  15. Healthcare Trainee Engineer

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    I've been annoyed by that comment all day yesterday. The fact that people are not understanding that Space Engineers is a small step that will make it much easier to provide the users what they want within the scope. A fresh new game that will perfect the engine for future games or including it within.

    Thank you for responding as thoughtfully as you did. At least people can come here. Read your comment and have a better perspective. I also believe the Devs are probably mentally patting you on the back. :p
     
  16. MaxPlanck Trainee Engineer

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    Hi DevilDude
    I agree with most of your points, it is obvious that an mmo is a very large undertaking and probably beyond the capacity of KSH for the time being.

    The part in your post that irks me is this:
    I don't scream DevilDude, and I don't have any absurd expectations of KSH.

    I preordered the mmo 21 months ago, I did it because I thought they had some great ideas and I wanted to see them realized. I trusted that they would use the money well and keep the community up to date on their progress like they said they would. That trust is now long gone, along with my money.

    21 months and not a single word of information, nothing.
    That is my problem.
     
  17. Healthcare Trainee Engineer

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    Pretty sure I would rather have Space Engineers developed and expanded upon with Miner Whatever in mind.

    Sorry. Space Engineers looks way more enticing. Also mentioned they have a dedicated team on both projects. That project is probably waiting for Space Engineers to get cleaned up more.

    This has ships.
    This has mining.
    This has wars.

    How is this game not making you happy?

    How could you get butthurt over the creation of this game?

    Some people. Narrow narrow narrow.
     
  18. MaxPlanck Trainee Engineer

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    I have nothing against KSH making Space Engineer, nothing.

    I am not 'butthurt', and please stop with the insults. It is embarassing to both of us.

    I am not 'narrow' I just want a bit of information on a product I paid for 21 months ago.
    Is that really too much to ask?
     
  19. DevilDude Trainee Engineer

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    then you made a bad investment.

    If you paid for that, without looking at the capabilities of the studio, all I can tell you is that you threw your money into a hole without properly assessing what you were likely to get, or when. That sucks, but I think they are trying to give you what you want, it's just that they're being forced to come to terms with reality. As are you. I think they're trying to develop the game that was promised, but a fully realized space MMO from a team of less than 50 in less than two years is probably not possible. But what they have been doing is pretty smart, they made the engine, and they made games who's assets both art and probably code can be incorporated into their final product that they promised, these lesser titles are providing the funding to make the product you paid for, and if it takes more time than you were promised, well that's just life, you can take it or leave it.

    Sorry to be blunt but no matter how indignant you get reality won't change, you must adapt to it, not the other way around.

    Edit: I should also say that I've seen several game developers from non english speaking countries behave like this, I don't know why but they have problems communicating their reasons as eruditely as their competitors in the US and england, possibly something is lost in translation.

    Regardless maybe I was a little blunt in my speech, but I don't like comments that aren't constructive, I tend to respond by trying to shock the comentator into analyzing their own speech.
     
  20. MaxPlanck Trainee Engineer

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    I did, I agree. Now I'm trying to minimize my losses.
    Imagine you order a phone from an online store. They charge your credit card, but send you an empty box. They also refuse to respond to your emails. What would you do?


    If you realize that you aren't able to uphold your end of a bargain, what would you do?
    Say "sucks to be you mate, I'm keeping the money"? Is that the honest way to deal with people?


    And no matter how indignant it makes you, I'll continue to raise the issue and ask for a refund or, at the least, some information.

    I think it would make the devs look a lot better in the public eye if they would acknowledge that we have a problem.
    Leaving your previous costumers feeling 'flipped off' is probably not the best way to sell a lot of copies of 'Space Engineer'.
     
  21. darkstarmatryx Trainee Engineer

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    MaxPlanck, I understand your frustration. I jumped on the boat for both 2081 and the MMO over a year ago. Watched Arena come out before 2081 was even finished if my memory serves me. I remember the release date of the MMO changing more than once with little knowledge of all that was going on.

    I agree that the email seemed rather ominous as well. The statement was left very open ended as to the status of the mmo (something that until that email) was always considered a definite. I hope they explain it's status and if they are so uncertain about its future but sure about this. I hope an option to switch is a possibility.

    I'd rather get something in the end for my support of the mmo than nothing. Like I've seen happen with too many alphas and preorders since I paid for that one.
     
  22. George.Mamakos Apprentice Engineer

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    As promised, here is the FAQ about Miner Wars MMO. Hope that it covers all your questions.

    http://forums.keenswh.com/post/faq-on-miner-wars-mmo-6520774
     
  23. MaxPlanck Trainee Engineer

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    Okay.
    So to sum it up:

    1. - The Q4 release date has been changed to no release date.

    2. - There will be no refunds to disgruntled backers.

    3. - That is all.
     
  24. Healthcare Trainee Engineer

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    Jesus. I wish we were better strangers.
     
  25. 3trip Apprentice Engineer

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    group hug?
     
  26. Battleunit Trainee Engineer

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    Most MMO developers buy an engine such as Unity or Hero. I think one of the take-aways with this is that developing an MMO with a small team is a BIG task. Step one in the task is get the engine up and running. No engine, no alpha MMO.

    I would be scared paying good money for an MMO with no engine. Once Space Engineer is running then they will have a crafting, building, and physics engine in place that can have MMO stuff hung off it. Plus buying Space Engineer will pay the bills while he MMO is developed.
     
  27. mrsinister Trainee Engineer

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    I'd be happy with the ability to create my own server :)
     
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