Now this is somewhat different: RPG?

Sorry for wall of text, TL;DR underneath

So I’ve been trying to categorize what kind of suggestions we get here in the forums. Of course we always get suggestions for new blocks, be it cosmetic or completely new concepts like ladders. I definitely think this is an important subject for changes as the game does need a lot more variety especially in the vanilla version. On the other hand, these things don’t really add to the gameplay which is for me the biggest crutch for the game right now.

Then there are suggestions for implementing survival aspects like adding hunger, food, whatever, make the game harder, give our buildings an actual purpose.

And of course we have the guns. Add better armor, lasers, shields, completely new battle system etc.

What I have not seen is threads suggesting the implementation of more Role-play-game based features. I will soon explain what I mean by that but first, here’s why I think that is an important topic to think about:

Maybe I’m just not the right person to play a sandbox game but at the moment the game just doesn’t give me enough to do. I recently started playing again after a break of about 2 years. The new survival features, planets etc. really go the right direction. But we got many survival games out there, I don’t know most of them because I’m not quite into that genre either but they mostly seem to lack long time motivation. Either it’s just farming over and over again the same stuff or you get finished and have nothing to do anymore. So why focus on this part, there are many other games and most do NOT do it “right”?

But I do understand the motivation for those suggestions, the survival aspect is a really nice feature for me as mentioned above. What I really don’t understand is people crying for an improvement of armor, guns and stuff. I’m not into that kind of games either but there are definitely better games for that kind of stuff out there. Just the limitations set by SE’s awesome physics at the same time make dogfights etc. not exciting. Most of the work is done by automatic gins anyway, why focus on this part of the game?

When I look through SE Youtube-videos what do I find? Mostly people sharing their creations, building awesome ships without a purpose, people roleplaying in the world they have built. The game have a nice setting, awesome looks and in the end it’s a sandbox game. Of course it’s all about building stuff and sharing. Why not make sharing your creations a bigger part of the game.

In my vision of the games future I see a classic RPG. Missions, Worlds, Stories, all created by the community and shared easily ingame. That way the sandbox aspect would be connected to another part of the game giving purpose to anything you build and a sheer unending amount of content. Now let’s see how that could be implemented at all:

Of course we would need a lot of world options, I mean that would be an endless list but e.g.: NPCs, Control Panels with limited access, ... A problem we would face quickly is the limited variety of missions you can edit. But with just some basic RPG elements in the background, like a ground-battle system using different kind of guns, upgrades, skillpoints etc. we could have a hell lot of fun. This is by far the biggest problem as that is a completely new feature that has nothing to do with any type of survival but I’m thinking of a rather rudimentary system like in SWKOTORII (sorry but for a space setting I had to mention Star Wars). The progress is completely based on new items which are pretty much noting but a skin and numbers, which makes it easy to implement (I guess).

Well in conclusion I’ve got to say, that is definitely too much of a change. In the end, the sandbox game we have right now would only be some world editor in the background. The only good thing I see here is, that it’s mostly not much coding to do but all about ideas and the system behind. As the game is already at its performance limit, this wouldn’t mean another framedropper (like suggestion of water…). This is just about what KSH sees in the game and actually wants to put effort in. Unfortunately that is probably the biggest issue as I doubt KSH wants to go that direction but it’s just a suggestion right?

So what do you guys think?


TL;DR:

What about adding some RPG-elements? Sandbox = World editor

 

This may not be outside the realm of reality. A few weeks ago, Keen teased visual programing for their scenario editor, which ATM is pretty basic. A more advanced scenario editor could be the first step in creating campaigns with a common theme and renforcing goals. Alternatively (or in addition to, depends on your point of view), this could help create a quest line (one mission leading into the next, much like our favorite RPGs). Add in some additional weapon variety (railguns, heavy cannons, player carried anti-ship weapons, etc.), a few more functional blocks (power transmission come to mind, as well as some larger thrusters and smaller/bigger production blocks), and last but not least fix what is currently broken in the game (short list: pistons/rotors and performance in single and multiplayer), and you provide a strong base for doing exactly what you suggest.

TL;DR: this is a sandbox game, if built appropriately, there is nothing you shouldn't be able to do, and it looks like KEEN is trying to do just that.

Give it another couple years, I'm sure we'll all be surprised...

EDIT: stupid blackberry with its stupid screen, posting this when it wasn't done yet

 

Npc's are coming, with "GOODAI(tm)" i hope to see somewhat capable npc's that can really spice stuff up.

Food and such is a big no-no, just another hazzle to keep track off. I am currently writing up a small essay on how there are to many components and resources to keep track off already.

 

Too many already?

There's not nearly enough...

In your first 5 hours of play you can have an infinite amount of everything and essentially no resources to monitor.

Starmade is over that way >>-->

 

Well, as I can see, Space Engineers is following Starmade into the dieing-out process...

In both gamesit looks like only the builders are left... and there's no telling for how long...

One thing is for sure, I won't stay for much longer... not if the game is enjoyable by any other class than the builder: killers, socialisers, explorers.

If anyone is interested why the game is slowly dieing out (even if the game is still bought, because the ammount of hours played weekly is slowly but surely declining), watch those videos: https://forum.keenswh.com/threads/tw...ure-more-suggestions.7386940/#post-1287001266

 

GoodAI is NOT game AI and not something you will see in the vanilla game, but only as a plugin based addition. I really don't understand where people have gotten this idea, it was stated quite clearly several times...

GoodAI is general purpose AI and is not designed for games.

And also won't really be usable for much for years yet, I'd wager.

 

Then they're wasting their time... the game is dieing and they don't even see it...

 

GoodAI has nothing to do with SE or games in general.

And don't overdramatize, it's not appreciated. The player decline is normal. Everybody who don't see this game going their direction is claiming "game is dying" and has been doing that since day one. It has no impact any more and is just considered background noise. Btw SE is still on Steams Top games by current player count (top 100).

 

Well, maybe because it is. Take a look at those videos: https://forum.keenswh.com/threads/tw...ure-more-suggestions.7386940/#post-1287001266

While the game won't simply die out, they're literally making it less likely for more types of players to pick up the game. Or keep playing it after a (rather short) while. Right now, there's nothing to do for the explorers and for the killers, since multiplayer is broken and there is no procedurally-generated content... even through it's quite easy to do that... it just requires a bit of time...

 

I don't care. Every doomsayer have their own "evidence" the game is dying and I'm tired of the nonsense. Everybody else has been proven wrong, the game is still going strong. What makes you any different from them? The day it drops off the top 100 I might listen to you. Or I've grown tired of the game myself and thus care even less.

The game is still alpha. Far from finished. Player drops are to be expected because a whole lot of them don't understand what alpha means, and when they realize what it is, they either elect to wait, or ragequit because they don't understand why there are so many problems. Multiplayer is being worked on constantly. They're fixing stuff and adding stuff, but they don't waste much time on general gameplay mechanic until the game works. People keep underestimating just how complex this game is.

 

Well, I come with evidence from people who work in the domain...

I know they're fixing and adding, but every hyped game has a period where the hype is strong... but I don't know if a year from now the game would still be alive.

What I'm trying to do is making the devs realise that the builders (and recently the survivers) aren't the only types of players who matter.

And about the alpha: Ever wondered why so many games don't make it out of alpha, and end up dieing out while still in the Alpha? I'll let you take a guess.

 

And I am a professional developer myself and have been programming for a very long time.

You shouldn't ever see the alpha part of development. You don't for AAA games, and you're lucky if you even get a sneak peak on the beta. Early Access is what is killing games. Early access is a pox on development that should never have been invented, because it shows the parts of development that people simply don't understand and understandably so. They don't understand how complicated development is, game development especially.

Speaking of which; please tell me when you're gonna build a house. I'll show up while you are still putting up your walls and scream it's broken!

You have no idea what the devs know or don't know. They have only so many people, only so many workhours, and only so much things they can be doing at any one time. Are you really saying they should stop working on the real problems of this game? Shouldn't they finish the features before adding more gameplay elements? Is that really so hard to grasp?

If and when Keen says they're done, without implementing at least some of the things you're asking for, then I'll be joining the choir. Right now I'm leaning towards the being-a-bit-worried side. But I'm not screaming hellfire, I rather talk to the people involved.

Look; I understand where you're coming from. But you don't have enough information to go on.

 

Me, too... minus the "very long" part...

Well, for better or worse, it's happening.

If you do use MVP, don't think of it as "Minimum Viable Product", but as "Minimum Valuable Product".

Here, have a few articles to read:
So long MVP. Hello Minimum Loveable Product. How to Build a Minimum Loveable Product
4 Reasons Minimum Viable Products Fail

Well, yeah, but they should also think about making the game fun. Look at the images from above.

Well, I am screaming hellfire so that it won't become what we're worried it could become.

And neither do you. I just try to minimise the risk of failure. Isn't that part of what makes a good developer?

 

they must not even try to make game for everyone.
i like SE, both SP and MP.
have fun here.

may be just this game not for you?
bug is one hand...but except them, all another?

nope, when don't have enough argument.

you think that SE will die, but for several years SE moving forward, and every month there is same story about death.

 

No, I am warning of the danger that it could die, so that it can survive. If you know that something bad is goign to happen, you're going to prepare for something to happen, and maybe have nothing happen by avoiding the bad things simply because you were expecting them.

I don't mean to be equally enjoyable for everyone, but to have a bit for each type of players. Currently, the exploration is nearly unexistent once you've been on all the planets, the survival is either frustrating (asteroids falling too frequent and the wolves being both overpowered AND spawning too frequently) or nearly inexistent (once you've got to a few patches of resources). Just Rinse and Repeat.

 

@Sapioit I've seen how it really works, and how the theories that keep popping up on how stuff "should be done" very rarely fits with the real world. They're just utopian ideas. Good ideas sure, but the real world simply don't work that way. So I don't listen to them any more, at least no more than to get the basic idea behind them.

By the way, you're shooting yourself in the foot with those examples. That is exactly what they're doing. Can you really not see that? Again: Time. Workforce. It simply doesn't add up.

I'm sorry, Utopia doesn't exist. You're asking for the impossible.

 

we all can die.

sometimes a bit of this, a bit of that is worse then specialization.
game not final yet, wolves no long a go was kaboom-cyberhound.

game still changing.

 

But sometimes it's much better than a specialisation. Just look at Elon Musk, if you want proof. Or, I don't know, a ton of other games out there...

 

he don't do 1000 jobs, he do just several.
and btw he have much bigger team

95% of which specilize on own genre.

SE is sandbox, their main problem os perfomance and stability.
once it will be done, we can talk about more content and balancing.

 

Funny, this thread was about adding RPG elements (and from from little I've read so far, it seems interesting), and now it's a person who's been on the forum for 11 days arguing with someone who's been on for... 3 and a half years now.

Now that doesn't mean @Sapioit hasn't been playing the game for years, or that he didn't have another account, but it's pretty amusing if you think about it.
I'm on @Malware 's side, by the way.

 

But how can performance and stability happen on an inherently unstable and unfinished product before it at least becomes "feature complete"?

What worries me is that they already consider it feature complete and we're actually in Beta cos there is alot of bugfixing and "polishing" going on with no major new mechanics seemingly being worked on.

 

<blink><blink> Are you really not considering the new renderer and realistic sound system major new mechanics?!?


Wow...


Personally I've been waiting for the latter forever...

PS: It's in beta when they say it's in beta. Until that time, we have no idea what is being worked on in the background - but you already know that

 

Look, I get your points, but by not having multipotentialites (I suggest you watch this TED video about the term, or read the transcript) you risk to not have the whole thing working properly. Like you could have a in-game ship with everything except a proper control unit (not saying that the multipotentialite should be a team manager, just giving an in-game example).

I get it that you're doing your best, and that you have specialists, but sometimes they are so focused on what they do, that they become incapable of seeing the bigger picture (and it could last for years). This is where the multipotentialites shine: in seeing the bigger picture, from different perspectives.

Because, let's face it, the performance and the stability are being worked on, but, realisticly speaking, how many hours would it take to make the wolves have less HP, less damage, and have the meteorites spawn once every 30-120 minutes? A day? Two? Let's say a week, as the worse case scenario. Now, do you realise that by pushing only those tiny changes, people would start playing with wolves and meteorites on, and not only that, but see it as "a new feature" (something that was being worked on) instead of "a broken mechanic"?

By doing just those tiny changes, you make the game more survival-friendly, therefore allowing a lot more players to enjoy it (even a tiny percentage can have drastic effects on sales). Having the survival fixed, would allow the killers to have more prey to kill, therefore increasing that (tiny) percentage of new buyers even more. The performance issues would probably allow the explorers to have something to do, after you would switch back to having procedurally generated planets, but I understand that it could take years.

Sometimes, the tiniest details can make all the difference in the world.


Sidenote: I'm a multipotentialite.

I didn't play the game nearly that much, but I did play it ocasionally... but never posted anything on the forum (just lurking/reading). I didn't got into the game nearly as much as in the last months...

 

Those are a day, or two, or a week, that they have to pull someone away from, say multiplayer, or another equally important aspect. They simply don't have the manpower (They're constantly hiring, btw, if you want a new job). As a professional developer you should already know how this works. Constantly shifting focus is destructive. They're already plagued with that problem.

Be patient. It will happen - at least some of these things will, but doubtfully everything. They just have more important things to do first. Those important things may not be what you consider important though.

Keeping them informed of the features you want is well and good. Even nagging is. Being a doomsayer however, isn't. That's just annoying and a waste of time.

(Oh, and about the meteors by the way:
https://forums.keenswh.com/threads/meteor-storms-bring-new-life-to-ssp.7387272
Seems like some people don't really agree with you on how bad they are...)

As for the wolves... I despise the entire concept of the wolves. This isn't earth, no matter what it looks like. There's no logical reason there could be wolves here. It forces me to play with a backstory involving humans already having been on this planet - and even with that, it's silly. I resent that. Point is: no matter how much work they put into them, I'll be switching them off. Meaning in the end, no matter what Keen does, a bunch of people are gonna be disappointed. There's no way around it.

 

Or what the other players consider important. You might be an exception, have you ever considered that?

The doomsday part is just to catch the attention of the devs, since I doubt any SE dev noticed those problems...

 

You might be an exception, have you ever considered that?

I have been chatting with people about features and stuff for quite some time you know.

Including the devs.

You see, they have this discord channel...

And if you have been paying attention to the forums, I think what most people are considering important would be quite obvious.

Stop making assumptions.

And the doomsday part is more likely to get them to go "Heh. Another one of those. ignore" Honey versus vinegar, you know.

Your general ideas aren't necessarily wrong.

The way you go about it is. Ever heard about the story about the boy who cried wolf?

 

When the subject was about role playing aspect I didn't think I'd actually get to witness actual drama in here. Good show chaps.

 

Drama? I wouldn't go that far...

@Sapioit By the way... I know I am an exception. I don't care one iota about multiplayer. I want single player survival mechanics, and exploration would be perfect for me. It's about my impression of what the general player base wants.

 

That's usually what I refer it to when I see somebody come in with a 'this game needs this or it will die' post. Everyone always knows best it seems. The simple fact is that games come and go all the time. And people being people love to jump on the next big thing. I'm willing to bet there is not a single person in here who plays every game in their library every day, including games that already have the feature theyre calling for. I'm willing to bet there is nobody here that even has every game in their library on their pc.
All this actually gives credit to your argument that early access is a bad idea because it jump starts a games life span that much sooner. People burn out and move on before there is even a finished product.

Personally, never include statements like this game gone die when you make a suggestion. The suggestion may actually be good but you just lost any attention it may actually receive and focused it on that statement. If you want people to talk about the idea, then present the idea. What is it about, what could it add, how can it tie into the exsisting product.

 

@DDP-158 Right. What I've been trying to say as well... Just not all that good with those word thingies.