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*Official Poll* Balancing Survival - Your thoughts and suggestions

Discussion in 'Survival' started by CommanderHerpDerp, Jul 2, 2014.

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  1. Digi Senior Engineer

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    2,393
    1 welder/grinder is slower than manual but has other advantages like doing simultanous work on 4 blocks at a time and ability to store/grab into a variable sized storage container... so my poll vote is NO, they are balanced.

    It would be better to have some HUD indicators for % welding/grinding and visual highlight (or something) of blocks that are affected before you start welding/grinding, so you can be accurate with a ship, which is an advantage on manual.

    Also some notifications about not enough materials when you start welding... or not enough connected storage capacity when you start grinding so you don't end up with floating components.
     
  2. Blackghost_Pt Trainee Engineer

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    47
    For me grinders and welders are fine if they are built faster or not is not the issue for me im used to do AL my stuff and had no problems now there are other tings that should have more a mediate attention like smooth graphics and some laging issue bugs

    thanks
     
  3. HeadlessMarty Trainee Engineer

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    1
    at the moment i really enjoy the game's pacing.. my biggest complacent is honestly the welding speeds and how much the player can hold when building ships or what have you. i am also annoyed about how little amount of time the suit's power lasts maybe add in those batteries you where talking about and have ships be able to run off a muti-block type battery cell system thingy... what i personally would like to see at some point is random large ships and maybe ai driven pirates that randomly show up in ships after a set number of game play hours in a world, and they just fly around forcing you to defend yourself.. i also am hoping for that idea that was suggested a while ago about a machine that would build ships baced off a blue print of another ship...
    this game is amazing and i can't wait to see what it looks like in a year or so, i am always looking forward to Thursdays for you'r updates, your doing good work too few game developers ask there fans anymore.
     
  4. Krag of the Ironwood Trainee Engineer

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    7
    Yes i agree that welders on ships of any size should be increased however when welding and grinding by hand it should still take as long.

    i personally think that looking into the weight of objects such as steel mesh and thruster components are needed.

    The ability to tell you what materials are required and what is missing when using ships as well as the percentage of progress would be a great improvement to the game.

    however if i would like to see more improvement in the server side such as fixing lag issues and being kicked out unexpectedly.

    before more features get added, thanks for the great game.
     
  5. Jurriën van Dongen Trainee Engineer

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    33
    I voted no towards the grinder/welder time, although I can perfectly understand why folks would want faster times (and if it can be toggled in settings more power to you).

    There is 1 aspect of survival that is driving me me nuts though, which is the time it takes to assemble construction parts. Considering that from what I can tell they're the second most used part right after steel plates, and that conveyor systems use a ton of them, sitting around waiting for a whole batch of assemblers churning them out...isn't a lot of fun.
     
  6. RockSlice Trainee Engineer

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    39
    I think the speed for hand-held tools is about right. I think that tools for ships should be vastly faster than hand-held.

    It would also be nice to have some sort of feedback when using a ship-based welder about what components are needed.
     
  7. quyxkh Trainee Engineer

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    37
    One more vote for just the ship welders.

    I think of refineries as components in an actual factory complex. I _like_ build and defending an operating colony in the caverns when you can't expose yourself, when a direct line of sight to space is a real problem. Four refineries, two assemblers isn't all that much of a setup. And if you think about it, it's pretty reasonable -- the spawn ship's a rescue ship, one refinery and one assembler is enough to keep the one ship operating in dangerous territory and if necessary expand capacity. I think of the slow elements as stand-ins for trace elements.
     
  8. Greymallion Trainee Engineer

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    1
    Survival is all about earning your progress. I would recommend implementing an upgrade mechanic. This way you can increase the speed once you upgrade your welder/grinder or whatever. It's the best of both worlds, really. You get the increased speed once you upgrade, and the satisfaction of knowing you earned it.
     
  9. Feralsquirrel Trainee Engineer

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    8
    Firstly, the above. Upgrades would be extremely nice. I don't care if I end up with some kind of horrid hydra-welder with six heads, if it works faster? Great. Same with battery power, we badly need that expanding, or some kind of efficiency upgrade so everything draws less power.

    But anyway, I'm all for a progressive increase in speed of welding/grinding depending on what's used- though I have a caveat that really, there should be a larger "large" ship welder/grinder. We got something similar with the drill, to me it makes sense. I was rather surprised to see that the welder/grinder had the exact same size and such irrespective of if they were fitted to a small or large ship. I envisaged having an at least cosmetically different model for large ships/stations.

    I'd really like to see an option to choose between quicker building speed and area affected though with the welders- sometimes it's not a problem, but can at times be incredibly frustrating, especially when wanting to weld/grind a particular component, and instead end up interacting with a whole area. Granted it's more of a boon when making ships from scratch, but seriously, the option would at least be nice.

    Also I'd like to see some organisational changes in terms of inventory- I'm surely not the only one who does a small bender when they can't find something in a station/ship inventory? Allow us to route Assembler production to a particular container, select and group-order Assemblers to all produce items in one execution rather than flick through a dozen and individually setting their production. It's a headache or at the least a time-sink with one of the most basic game systems.
    It's nice that some structures automatically pull what they need from inventories, but giving us the opportunity to control inventory movement and management will smooth things out -so- damn much. I'd really like to set up connectors to pull, automatically when configured, only certain items, or ensure a certain number of components are present in a docked ships inventory. Manual dragging of things from six different locations just to get construction components for ship building is, well, a drag!
     
  10. Jurriën van Dongen Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    33
    Aren't drills/welders/grinders 3X3 on small ships and 1X1 on large ships (which would be the equivalent of 5X5 on a small)?
     
  11. Feralsquirrel Trainee Engineer

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    8
    Welders/Grinders share the same sized model on Small/Large ships, so it would take up 3x3 on a small ship, but only 1x1 on a large ship (taking into account that large ship blocks are one block that takes up a 3x3 equivalent of small ship blocks). Grinders are the same.

    What I'm trying to suggest is that rather than sharing the same model entirely- look at the Drill. The large ships were (thank god) able to use them eventually, but got their own, larger model. The small ship Drill was 3x6, while the large is 3x9 (in small ship block terms).

    My proposal is that rather than share the same model and attributes, alter it but change the stats to reflect it's larger size. It's not an argument for "Make things bigger and more powerful" but it at least puts a clear difference between the two ship sizes- in so far as I'm aware there's no difference between a Large Ship welder and a Small ship welder, other than the former is more expensive.

    It'd be nice to see some kind of a justification for it rather than raw stats if they were to change, I'm not saying we should see a smaller, 2x2 welder/grinder for small ships (though some may argue otherwise), but at least make a visual and performance change between the two.

    Sure, it might not make a blind bit of difference to many, but depending on how changes go over the course of the next few months with various updates and whatnot, I can't see a reason why there can't be a nice visual difference between sizes of ship components- hell, we have different sizes of Cargo container, thrusters and reactors right? Why not with other things too, which reflect the same differences in terms of ability?
     
  12. Lancar Senior Engineer

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    2,227
    Only 2?
    I have over 20 refineries active on my mothership, and that is still not enough to produce Thruster Components continuously with only a single assembler.
     
  13. voicesdark Senior Engineer

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    2,208
    Instead of boosting the speeds on the default tools, what about adding some sort of workbench where we can upgrade our tools so they are more power efficient and/or faster. This way it would give us something else to work towards and more reason to better protect our tools, not to mention adding another functional and also decorative block to the game in the form of the work bench.

    As far as suit power, would really love to see the recharge station that DeadWeight4U in the modding section created be added to the game as an official block. It's placed on a wall and simply refills your suits power, but still requires a medical bay for actual healing.

    I love how realistic this game is, but for the player carry inventory what about a tool box that could again be built at the above mentioned workbench that would also allow us to upgrade our player carry inventory. Again like with the upgraded tools suggestion this would also add some more risk/reward to the player death as well as these simply wouldn't be just default tool/inventory changes.
     
  14. 576f6c6679 Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    61
    I'm not going to go over some of the very common and valid points in this thread in regards to weld/grind times and possible balance tweaks

    What I am going to do is say an absolute and huge NO to any sort of tool/suit/spacedog upgrade or research system, its just way too close to a 'level up' system in my eyes, it divides the capabilty players based on how long they have been in the game and this just seems totally backwards. The same goes for any kind of tech tree implementation, I like that people are limited to what they can build by factors along the lines of: Can I build this? Is it efficient? Should I build this? and not: I cant build this because I don't have the necessary research.
     
  15. voicesdark Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,208
    You're making some pretty big assumptions that a single upgrade option for a tool would be this hugely monumental task. For it to be well balanced it would simply be the equivalent difference of light and heavy armor blocks. If you go to any hardware store you can find cheaper "light home use" power tools along with more heavy duty pro use ones, not really any different to that.
     
  16. Feralsquirrel Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    8
    One would imagine that perhaps there will be more numerous upgrades than "Basic Welder" and "Built so fast I just *thought* and it was done".

    If such a thing is even implemented, there's a number of different ways to do it. Cheap and quick would be just being able to build, straight off the bat, improved tools. Alternately you could perhaps upgrade your particular starting tool by "slotting" in upgrades- such as improved efficiency (power wise, perhaps material wise?) or larger batteries and weld/grind/mine speed (or area affected).

    Failing that, just different tools. Maybe different "brands", some that are power hungry or take up much more space/weight but fast working, others the opposite, etc. There's always a method of implementing it that wouldn't necessarily be a case of "I've played for X time so have access to all the shiny things". It doesn't even have to be a grind, depending on what you want you could perhaps choose the specific improvements so could relatively easily work you way across a certain branch from a tree or somesuch.

    Hell, it's one of those things the Devs need a proper thread specifically for with a poll or something to work through and see what we want. Personally I'd be happy with a three-tiered system a-la the way things already work with some blocks, having a Small, Medium, Large type thing going on in terms of speed and power but at the expense of, well, weight or something.
     
  17. Stephen Miller Haynes Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    4
    I would like to see welding and grinding take about 1 second per block. Currently constructing anything but a small ship is time prohibitive.

    The limitations of inventory size can be the limiting factor in construction time, and encourage the use ship based welders and grinders.

    For ship based welders/grinders, create a larger effective range, and keep the conveyor compatibility. This would offer big gains from the construction and use of ship based welders.
     
  18. Disposadwarf Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    452
    Alot of people need to consider, I interpreted the OPs post as balancing survival with the current features we have atm. AKA changing numbers in the current flies to change game flow. Adding new features is not a one person job, so suggestions for new blocks or a modular tool (although kinda cool) would not be able to be added just with the OP changing game values.
     
  19. Geneticus Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,618
    I played through crashed red ship last night and noticed that a grinder mounted to a small ship takes longer than the hand grinder on some items(non-armor blocks). Also the welder, drills, and grinders look too big on a small ship IMHO, they should be a 2x1 block instead of 2x2 block base. I also find the range of the hand welder to be just a bit too short. For example If I place 3 blocks in an L shape, I can't weld the middle(corner) block from inside the 90deg angle even though I can see it's edge.
     
  20. GenRommel Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    70
    For the most part, grinding and welding speeds are fine. Welding heavy armor could be a little faster, as it also seems that their increased cost in plates over light armor is quite justified by the same magnitude increase in strength. As many have said, solar panels take too long.

    I like the idea of adding a multiplier for welding grinding speeds when setting up a map.

    Platinum takes too long to refine/large ship thrusters need too much of it. I shouldn't have to leave the game running for days with multiple refineries on 3x to build a couple large ship thrusters.

    Cobalt also seems a little slow, but since not much uses it in significant quanities, it's never a problem in the way platinum is.

    It seems odd to me that conveyer tubes need more motors than conveyor blocks.

    Construction components take a little too long to make in the assembler, especially since almost everything other than armor blocks needs them.
     
  21. MegaMiner Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    625
    While I voted yes, I think most things are fine the way they are. Currently if I need ore processed faster I just build more refineries. What I would like to see though is the assembler speed and efficiency separated, so i can speed up the assembler speed, but not change the efficiency. They are already separate in the save game files, but it would be nice to have them separate in the game options.

    Also direct entry of numbers where there is currently only a slider would be nice. tired of trying to get the gravity field or rotor limits perfect.
     
  22. TehRoach Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    258
    I don't really have a problem with the welding speed in the game atm, however I would not reject the possibility of it getting tweaked.

    In my current game I have three small utility ships for building each with a large cargo, one with two welders and one with two grinders, the other has two welders and one grinder.

    My current building method would definitely get rejected by OH&S, but those neck ties never make it out to my station anyway! lol :p
    I leave the welders on and just carry the basics to place the blocks on my guy as I build the ship I just move the welders closer to it and proceed to get out and place more blocks on the other side of the ship this way my current bottleneck is me placing the blocks!

    The only ships that I build by hand are my first mining ship (which consists of a drill, a med container, connector, 6 small thrustters a gyro and a small reactor) and my first utility ship (which is basically the same ship but with a welder and a grinder instead of the drill).

    I then build a ship with 2 welders and a large container using the small utility ship.

    all my ships get extra thrusters, reactors, gyros and armor as needed, which I think is the best upgrade type system that could be implemented in a game!

    So I see little need for a "click on and wait for bar to fill upgrade" type system, however it would be really cool if you could daisy chain systems together to make them work harder and/or have "system booster" blocks that you could place next to or connect to system blocks to boost there efficiency.
     
  23. Biomecaman Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    12
    I think that continuing with the trend of more options is a good idea, 1x, 3x, 10x, 100x, instant, is a great idea. All we need is a new option for welding and a separate option for grinding, that way (as many have pointed out) u cant just bypass defenses and make a hole in a ship. (good point)


    hand tool welder/grinder should be the slowest
    small ship is a lot faster

    large ship is super fast compared to hand tool


    mining is a good speed now IMO
     
  24. Ash87 Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,977
    There should be a greater difference in the speeds of Grind/weld/mine between the handheld and ship mounted options.

    The ship mounted options should be MUCH faster, not just slightly faster. Moreover, the small ship and large ship varieties, should be more about the availability and ease at which you get materials to and from the tool.

    Cargo size is fine.

    thrusters are fine, in regards to what we are talking about.


    The "Problem" with survival right now, is weapon balance and a lack of survival aspects. Basically the time scale we have needs to be preserved with survival being about using what you can get over time to help you get a leg up on the harsh environment you have to deal with. Also, weapons should be balanced keeping in mind the time it takes to construct things. It shouldn't take 3 hours to make a decent sized ship, and then 3 seconds to loose it.
     
  25. Rosenkranz Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    135
    I voted 'Yes' but I was less experienced then. (6 days ago now). If hand welding/grinding is too slow, build a small ship for that. I did and was quite pleased with the increase in speed (since it has an area effect).

    If that seems too slow, engineer a bigger one. I did that and my small ship with 6 grinders at one end and seven welders at the other end do quite well. I'll likely want a way to recycle ships whole, so I've already been thinking of possible contraptions to do just that. I'll feel quite pleased when I see it eat a small large ship whole!

    If one refinery is too slow, build more. Same for assemblers.

    So I don't really have any balance suggestions for the areas the OP is asking about. However, being able to set a refinery's logic would be nice.

    Such as:--------------------------------------------------------------------------
    [Y/n]Prioritize \/ //Can set a priority and order to ore processing if desired
    [Y/n] 1. Platinum
    [Y/n] 2. Uranium
    :
    [y/N] 10. Stone

    Output threshold 10---------95 //Set at what percent of capacity the output is pushed to cargo (default is 95% i think)
    Input threshold 10---------95 //Set at what percent of capacity the input is pulled from cargo (default is 70% i think)
    Input max fill 10---------95 //Set to what percent of capacity the input is fill on a pull (may have to be tied to threshold
    as conflicts would occur if the max is set at or less than the threshold.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    This would give folks a tremendous amount of control over their refinery(s). Starting out the defaults are fine, but if you want to fine tune this, it's way more difficult that it probably ought to be for the year 2077.

    Want a refinery to just cook fuel rods? Set one to just do that.

    Want a set of refineries to balance load, set up priorities so that the different ores are balanced between them and set their input thresholds lower so they don't hog the available ore and leave others starving.

    Want the output pushed to central storage sooner, set the output threshold lower.

    Want the input to not get filled to the brim every time to try to pull something out to put something else in. Set the input max down. I have to shut the bloody thing off completely to keep it from doing that every single time :(

    Something like this for assemblers as well would also be good.

    I mean, really? It's the year 2077 and we have refineries capable of refining 10 different types of ore that fits in a 5x5x10 meter cube. That is tiny as very robust. It's logic should be tweakable :) Same goes for the assemblers.
     
  26. quyxkh Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    37
    I'd like to take back my boost-the-ship-welders vote too -- only because I finally figured out how to fire-and-forget even monster weld jobs, of course.

    @Rosenkrantz, you can already set refinery priorities and change them without needing any trips to the control panel. I solve the greedy-reload problem by keeping ore stocked.
     
  27. gazeebo Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    106
    That's a good way of looking at it. Before you are really able to use the heavy duty pro ones, usually you should get some practice in with the "for home use" tools. Not only that, the cost of heavy duty ones are significantly higher.

    So to balance that part out, you could make a heavy duty refinery for example, except it would cost foe example 10 times the resources and requires 3 times the amount of power to operate.
    At least, that's what I have in mind when I think about an "upgrade" system in SE. Not a click of a button that magically makes your refinery better.
     
  28. mredge73 Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    104
    Not sure if it has been mentioned; but please treat the drill like a grinder.

    But we simply do not need mining to create rocks, collecting these is just tedious on the hand drill and the spill off is simply ignored on drill ships.
    All this does is cause huge server lag with big drill ships. You can still create the rocks if you are drilling with a full inventory, just like the way the grinder works.
     
  29. JayCo2013 Apprentice Engineer

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    356
    That harbinger mining vessel is colosal.... Love the scale 196 drills.... Bet that kills the server when its running.
     
  30. Hyomoto Apprentice Engineer

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    244
    I have less issue with speeds than material requirements. Case in point, Steel Catwalk uses 25 metal grates that weigh considerably more than than the components for an entire light armor block. My recommendation would be to break construction into literal phases. Phasing blocks would cost girders instead of random plates and tubes. Then build the part list from the inside out, plates may be used earlier but should almost always be the last components added. Then use appropriate combinations. A large thruster should contain considerably more steel plates and tubes, and far fewer thruster components, for example. If a medical room takes 100 medical components, why not increase assembly costs and reduce the number needed? It makes no sense to use 2000 reactor components, if you can use large reactor components assembled out of the smaller ones and streamline the building process into numbers that make sense.
     
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