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*Official Poll* Balancing Survival - Your thoughts and suggestions

Discussion in 'Survival' started by CommanderHerpDerp, Jul 2, 2014.

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  1. Hyomoto Apprentice Engineer

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    244
    I have less issue with speeds than material requirements. Case in point, Steel Catwalk uses 25 metal grates that outweigh the components for an entire light armor block. I suggest construction follow more literal phases. Placing blocks could cost girders, instead of random plates and tubes, since we are placing a frame. They also with less which would make it easier to block out a design. Then build the part list from the inside out in appropriate combinations. Plates should almost always be the last components, and a large thruster should contain considerably more plates and tubes, and far fewer thruster components, for example. If a medical room takes 100 medical components, why not increase assembly costs for one and reduce the number needed? It makes no sense to use 2000 reactor components instead of large reactor components assembled out of the smaller ones to streamline the building process into numbers that make sense.
     
  2. ZigzaGoop Trainee Engineer

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    Yes! Please make this happen and allow the order of cargo containers, refineries, assemblers, etc. To be dragged and dropped into a different order in the inventory tab. I hate having to scroll past a bunch of interior turrets just to find the one assembler that I built my stuff in.

    However back on topic. I support a change of weld and grind speed when using ship mounted welder/grinders. I also think making a second tier of hand held welder/grinders with improved stats would be good. You'd build this second tier of welder and grinders in an assembler ofc.
     
  3. Plysovej_Kaktus Trainee Engineer

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    I rather use slower hand drill with some auto collector as second option. It's pain on multiplayer servers while ore escaping 30ms^-1 to be gone as garbage after ~2s.
     
  4. Insignus Apprentice Engineer

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    Since someone decided to necromance this thread, I'll toss in some bits: I still need armor panel blocks (The blast doors are a good start, but I'm talking more of the catwalk sized heavy armor blocks. Maybe 50 steel plates and 5 construction components. I need it for applique and for covering up exposed externals next to gatling turrets. Cannot stress enough how much I need a material that can flush mount to the side of a turret)

    Also the gyration of the drills needs to be turned down. I've tried overloading on thruster omnis and gryos. Doesn't help. It mangles my drill ship after 7 minutes or so.

    The beacons and antennas probably cost too much in terms of radio components. Large ship batteries should be 100 cells, not 120. Windows need a boost in their strength of maybe 1.15x, blast doors also need a boost, but I Can't tell you how much exactly. Also, conveyors could use a strength (The tubes are fine where they are). Hmmm.

    Oh, and for the love of god, please have them fix connector docking and undocking. I know I've been ranting about it for months now, but the whole "You can't simply turn off the attraction power or invert it" is getting kind of annoying. Thats not so much a rebalance, but a request.
     
  5. Varyan Trainee Engineer

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    Regarding Random ships I feel like there is a big need for changes:
    I built a small fighter ( 4 Gatling guns, full heavy armor blocks) and used it to approach a military escort and kill its exterior turrets in order to board it.
    However as they shot me ( naturally ) my armor got a few hits but resisted pretty well. The cockpit however took like 3-4 hits and that was it I was dead.
    A friend observed it and saw the Military Escort continuously shooting at my ship. Why ? Because they were targeting moving objects and those were the small debris moving away from my ship. Thus the ship got reduced to pulp. as many shots still hit it.
    As I see it there is a bitter need to change the targeting system of random ships OR heavily buff those cockpits. Maybe add a fighter cockpit which costs tons of bulletproof glass and steel plates.
    I don't mind dying, going back to my fighter, repairing it for 15 min and trying over and over again. But I do mind loosing a 1 hour work ship completely because of ridiculously strong random ships.
    Also we manage to incapacitate those ships easily by going in with our own big ships, but building a huge mofo warship in order to take down a small military escort.
     
  6. JD.Horx Senior Engineer

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    1,032
    There are lots of balancing issues that the devs have to take care of, but I want to point out one special issue that I see at the moment.

    The amount of ressources you need for a certain block determines how long you need to mine and refine for it but imho it should also always determine how much mass a block has. Last time i checked, a light armor block cost 25 steel plates and had a mass of .5 tons. A heavy armor block costs 150 steel plates and has a mass of 1 ton.

    This is where the magic starts. How can it have double the mass while 6 times the amount of parts are needed?

    Please consider carefully how much parts we need for which block and how much mass it should have without destroying the reality and common sense.
     
  7. Knsgf Junior Engineer

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    Check again. The heavy armour cube is indeed 3 tons, not 1:
    [​IMG]
     
  8. JD.Horx Senior Engineer

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    Thanks for posting this. Happy they fixed this issue.
     
  9. sudagaiden Trainee Engineer

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    I think ONLY the SHIP WELDER should be quite more fast, but not the hand one. As said above, if you want to build faster, make a proper ship for that. About the GRINDER, hand and ship, please dont make it faster, keep that way! It s fine the way it is, avoiding too fast deconstructing is good for balancing defenses from those alternative attackers.

    As someone said above, i also think the refining tie for platinum is quite anoying.
     
  10. kittle Senior Engineer

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    1,086
    +1 on this.

    The hand tools should be slow. The ship mounted version should be faster. The large ship version should be faster than the small ship version. The small ship versions should take up less space, allowing us to get into tighter spaces.

    As for grinding vs welding: This is a BUILDING game, so welding should be faster than grinding (on hand tools). I know that's backwards from RL, but this is a game, not RL.
     
  11. Dragon-Raptor Apprentice Engineer

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    120
    Not played survival much, but here's my thought regarding the topic.

    Yes, on faster ship mounted tools only. Not by much, but faster base rate (+50% over hand tool for small ship welder/grinder?). Been using 6x welder/grinder ships, and they do the business:cool:

    One thing that does need looking at though: grinding (and I assume welding) speed of doors. Been hijacking/pirating some cargo ships, and hacking those doors takes forever, even with 2X grinding speed. I've been looking for ways around those doors on the cargo ships, so I don't have to stand there hacking the door.

    Really, the door should the weak point, shouldn't it?
     
  12. dragonFlyBE Trainee Engineer

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    1
    Playing only survival, one of the piece you could automate is the build of ships and/or secondary materials. A welding ship should indeed be more powerful in his welding then the hand welder.

    I dream to build a plant which can scan a ship I prototyped and reproduce it when necessary if I have sufficient raw material and the correct assemblers & welders .

    Like most of the post I read I find it important to keep the degree of reality very high.
     
  13. NathanTheSpaceSurvivor Apprentice Engineer

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    228
    Also. Gatlings are way overpowered. I went in with my small fighter to get a mining carriage. The gatling took out the cockpit in a single shot, and the rest of the ship stood still intact. I mean. That glass is called BULLET PROOF for a reason, or isn't it?
     
  14. Kuu Lightwing Senior Engineer

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    1,503
    Same issue here. Welding ship is too slow. It takes like 5 minutes to weld a reactor or gyroscope or something. AoE-welding helps, but it seems like 5x slower than welding it by hand.

    Yeah, static gatlings seem very powerful, indeed. And you can't shiled your cockpit with any blocks, too on a small ship
     
  15. The Gamer Trainee Engineer

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    i dont know if this was mentioned, but id like to see the amount of steelplates for a large ship gyroscope to be lowered. 900 is in my opinion to much, compared to the other stuff a big ship needs. if i look at a big mergeblock, wich almost needs nothing... :eek:ops:
    just lower it to 500 or so at least, this would make it a bit more easy but still be fair.

    and by the way, why all ai spawning ships do defend themselves now? leave some, or create new small floating ships without turrets and much fewer loot, so noobs like me can still get some out of them.
    i mean its not like every 5 minutes a defenceless ship should spawn, but from time to time, if your lucky, it would be nice if some of these might spawn, just add it to the table.
    its like space pirates for beginners :D
     
  16. Kuu Lightwing Senior Engineer

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    1,503
    You can get a Mining Carriage or Business Shipment if you approach them correctly. They both have blindspots at the bottom-back side
     
  17. chemicalvamp Trainee Engineer

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    (eg. Passage no longer costs x3 an interior wall, because its hollow)

    The passage has 3 interior plates because it's Hallow.. the walls you see from inside of it are the interior plates.
     
  18. Lallante Trainee Engineer

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    5
    Thoughts on balancing:

    - Cargo capacity of most items needs a complete balance pass. a 1x1x1 Small ship small cargo container provides 1/27 of the cargo capacity of a 3x2x6 drill (of which half is drillhead), which is clearly insane. Cargo containers in general need increased capacity, while ship components need reduced capacity. Components which have no reason to "store" items long term should have very low capacity (looking at you, connectors), just enough for a through-put of cargo.

    - Gravity generators are for me the most immersion breaking block and its interaction with mass the most immersion breaking mechanic. Gravity, and means to control it needs to exist (gravity absolutely is and should be a big part of an engineers toolbox) but they need to be completely reworked. Spherical gravity generators are the only type that should exist (being able to artificially set the "dimensions" of an oblong area in which gravity applies is horribly immersion breaking), and "artificial mass blocks" need to go. Instead, every single block with mass should be affected by gravity proportionaly to their mass. Yes, this will mean ships will need to be structurally sound to approach "massive" structures and other ships, or risk tearing themselves apart under their own gravitational forces. Things like the current "reactionless gravity drive" which break the laws of thermodynamics are horribly immersion breaking. Simultaneously with the above changes, rotational forces should be implemented to allow for artificial gravity from rotation, and magnetic boots should become a toggle for all engineers allowing walking on any flat metal surface, in the same way as the jetpack.

    - Welding in a ship is a pain. Its very slow (which is not a problem per se, but its out of balance with hand welding), and very clunky (which IS a problem). Some changes needed: small ship welders need to represent at least double the speed of handheld welders, ideally 4x+. Realism wise, why wouldnt a good engineer just duct tape 4 normal tiny welders together if the result was so vastly more effective than a huge 2x3x6 ship welder. The outlay of resources to build a welding ship should pay dividends. Secondly, when in a ship with a welder equipped and turned on, we need the same HUD pop-up when mousing over components as we get when hand-welding, showing missing components and percentage completed - this is essential to make this process more manageable. Finally, in the more distant future, controlleable hydraulic arms should be implemented to allow for more fine-detail controll and to "reach" into hard to access spots. All the above should also apply to grinding.

    - It would really help balance other processes to have a series of blocks that work like conveyor tubes but are physically flexible, like a firehose. The idea here would be to "connect" to this hose with your small ship and have a somewhat remote connection to a large ship/station inventory system while still allowing limited movement. This would be incredibly useful for welding (access (automatic, through welder pull commands) to, e.g., cargo containers full of components) and mining (immediate feed into refinery for example), etc. Obviously having very limited range and the risk of breaking the tether by pulling too hard would heavily balance these benefits.

    - I'm not convinced it continues to be helpful to have single items with a "small ship" version and a "large ship" version. I think splitting them into separate items is clearer and more helpful. Also why shouldn't I be able to fit the "small" version of things onto a large ship if I want to (and vice versa)? If balance was done properly between small and large versions of things this wouldnt be problematic.

    - The conveyor system and push/pull mechanics are pretty clunky and very difficult to engineer successfully. It is essential that we get filters, basic sorting tools, etc. In the long run, give us full logic-gate control. I would also consider changing the existing "machine" blocks (refinery, assembley, arc welder) to have specific gates for input and output. Ideally you would implement a control system kind of like Minecraft mod Thermal Expansion, which allows complete customisation of which gates input, output etc. and under what conditions. If I was lead developer, expanding this side of the game (including adding new specialised machines a-la arc welder, upgraded versions with enhanced functionality etc) would be my foremost focus. Making cool automation would be a HUGE area for engineers to explore.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 14, 2014
  19. Gweepo Apprentice Engineer

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    288
    -Cargo, I actually agree with you on this one...
    -Gravity, do you want to see everyone's sphere ships? I don't, and while I completely understand how out would never exist in real life, we (as a general community) want both. The devs are keeping things like grav drives for gameplay reasons. I'd you don't like gravity or mass blocks then you can mod them out. Also, if you didn't have the spherical grav gen at the exact center (mass wise) off your ship, it won't ever stop moving if you implemented the apply weight to every block idea.
    -Welding, its not completely balanced, but decently. I think its clunky for a reason, it's more for mass production than details. Wide range and decently deep penetration into the ships. Also, im guessing the reason that it doesn't display is because it welds more than one block at a time. If a block is in a hard to reach place, weld it by hand...
    -Large and Small blocks, there are mods for this.
    -Conveyors, the devs are adding a filter block soon..

    You might want to try watching the dev interviews that are out..
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 14, 2014
  20. Morilibus Apprentice Engineer

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    199
    Sensor Block requires more material then could possibly fit inside it :)
    Currently(01.057.005) the parts required to build one is 174.2kg / 923L
    The physical size of the block has a diameter of roughly the size of a small ship block (.5m) with a depth of maybe .1m. I estimated the Volume to be about 0.08 m3 or 80L, which is less than a 10th of what it currently can hold. I can't guarantee the math is completely accurate, roughly guessed dimensions and may have calculated something wrong. Someone could try and calculate it too to see if they get a similar result.
    Essentially it seems the cost of a sensor block is pretty high, and it's unlikely to be able to fit them all inside the block. This could change if the volumes of the individual parts get changed in the future.
    The wiki http://www.spaceengineerswiki.com/Sensor actually shows a different component list required to build one, and seems to be a more reasonable part cost. Maybe the current cost is a mistake? The wikis volume would be 17L, which could actually fit inside.
    [​IMG]
     
  21. thatguywithahammer Apprentice Engineer

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    179
    I agree that sensors' bill of materials makes no sense. If I'm not mistaken, no other block on small ships takes radio communication components. Not even the antenna. Why do sensors need them at all?

    The volume of 1m^3 large ship block is 1000L, which is only slightly more than the volume of all those parts. Sensors are way smaller than that.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 22, 2014
  22. elch Apprentice Engineer

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    241
    I agree on following points + I've added my own stuff to the "Cargo container" and Mass sections:
    1. Conveyor system needs enhancing:
    - Sorting block is needed/gate blocks -> something which will allow me to better organize the conveyor network and where all the raw stuff is, where all the finished
    parts are, etc..
    - Some way to remove unwanted material from container... I have a practical example:
    During mining I get on average 500'000 liters of stone, which i don't need for anything.
    If i want to get rid of it i have to use connectors ( or in my case several connectors ) to throw away the stone. But it takes forever and I have to manually manage it.
    Partial solution is to have the sorting block which is connected into the connector.. Ideal would be if the stone could be used for something meaningful.
    Or have a faster way of getting rid of it.

    2. Cargo container:
    - I would recommend adding the modded extra large cargo container into general release...
    It's big ( 5x5x5 ) and expensive container with 1 million liters of free space but when you have somewhat

    - Please make stuff inside the cargo containers to actually affect the mass of the ship.
    Currently freighter ships are not necessary because anyone can stick few large containers ( or extra large containers ) into some super huge combat ship and use it
    to move resources around. Currently I never felt a need to build a large vessel made only for moving large quantities of items..
    If this is changed, I will. I want to feel that I'm fully loaded :D

    3. Addition of mass:
    - When small ship docks to a large ship, large ship mass should include the mass of the small ship. So if it wants to move with it, engines must have enough power.
    Same should apply if the situation is reversed.
    So when someone is designing carrier ship, he/she needs to think about how many thrusters is actually required for it to move when all ships are aboard.
     
  23. Sekmeth Trainee Engineer

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    5
    I would also very much like to see some sort of research speed, you could tie this into all kinds of aspects within the game. Maybe even more so with the upcoming "Exploration".

    • Sensor range
    • Power Signature Detection (to determine if a ship is truly derelict, or has a nasty surprise for you =D)
    • Personal / Ship based welder / grinder speed
    • Salvage Efficiency (salvaging a block would not give you 100% of its resources, regardless if its ownership is yours or not, some items would be destroyed in the process)
    • Suit upgrades (Energy, speed, armor)
    • And a ton of other aspects
     
  24. Sekmeth Trainee Engineer

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    Agreed. Makes sense also.
     
  25. bobisdead123 Trainee Engineer

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    31
    Add Food, oxygen and water. Surviving is so easy that single player survival is boring and pointless (unless you like mining and building ships by hand for little purpose). All you need to do to survive is get uranium and that's super easy. The only challenge present is meteors.
     
  26. Urdrak Trainee Engineer

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    14
    Lots of good point here and there!

    For me I need more challenge in survival. While a lot of what has been said are real concerns for game balance and things that I like and would like to see. My prime concern with survival is that its not that hard to survive!

    I would like to see meteors as a viable option for survival.
    Right now, especially on servers, they are not even an option... The survival aspect of the game would be a lot better with meteors as a viable option for me.

    Adding more hazards (I know this was mentionned before) would be great also.

    One way I would see to balance those is changing danger per zone/area (like having more or less meteor shower depending on where you are) There could have "safe zones" and "danger zones". Also, I would not have meteors on unloaded zones.

    Some ressources could be rare in "safe zones" and appear more in "danger zones".
    There could be safe zones (or close to safe) Which would allow for stations without much protection to be a viable thing in the game.

    This would add a lot to survival, not counting the addition of more space hazards! (We also need ways to counter them or its not fun!)

    Off course, my solution is viable in an "infinite" map :)

    Oh and meteors should not come from the sun, its boring and non-immersive for me to just hide in the shadow of an asteroid... I'd rather not have them...

    Just my thoughts!
     
  27. quasicoltd Trainee Engineer

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    Survival 1x1x1 All the way baby!

    Anyhow, my list of issues.

    Ship welders: My only issue with them is that you have no indicator about how far along the work is! Armor blocks look the same at 70% as they do at 100%, so I have to stop work, manually check each one, then finish it up. I would be better off just hand welding at that point.

    Unbalanced ore/ingot/component costs and speed: I like the idea of things like platinum taking longer to process. It gives a certain air of rarity even if the ore isn't (gold is in large supply in the universe, there just isn't much here on Earth). However should you decide to build a large ship you need 80 thruster components per thruster. Ok, that wouldn't be so bad, until you realize how much platinum this takes! I have 6 refineries running non-stop, 4 of them on platinum and 2 on cobalt. I can crank about 10 to 20 components out an hour at that rate provided I have a stockpile of gold and iron already. My entire large ship is done, but the thrusters will take 2 weeks at this rate for just the basic 6!

    New ship building needs an overhaul: I hate making a new small ship. I can only put on the initial landing gear and can't add more until its over. For starters you can't get "under" a small ship until it is finished and can put it up in the air to get under it, and even if you could, by default the UI tries to make things "large". So unless the ship is in the air, it thinks you are trying to add a large landing gear to the station your ship is parked on.

    It isn't much better for the large ship either. The large ship I mentioned before has only one gear in the corner holding the massive thing afloat! This is causing a problem as the weight is causing the ship to shudder and it is damaging the station floor it is attached to! I have to repair the docking area every hour or so or I risk losing my entire unfinished ship! The landing gear has also clipped into the blocks that I have repaired at this point, so it is far too close to the station at this point to attach more gear. I have to hurry up and get it operational before the whole project is lost.

    Light/Heavy Armor blocks need far more HP: "Light" armor blocks? More like papier mache blocks! #amirite? Seriously, these shouldn't even have "armor" in the name. I once destroyed a light block when I used a grinder on a cargo container with a large amount of stone inside. The 20k in stone fell out and hit the station floor destroying it! Forget about taking gatling fire.....

    I know I am far from the only person who has complained, but the AI for turrets on the cargo ships is TOO GOOD. As soon as you approach one they zero in on the cockpit and you are dead. I know taking these ships is easy if you use the right tactics, but it should be possible to take these guys on in a fair fight instead of using one man breaching pods to exploit defense gaps. Even if you had a similar sized and armed ship compared to the one you are attacking you will still lose. Humans simply can't compete with auto-aim.

    Refinery loads: I have heard others say it is possible to prioritize what ore your refineries grab but I don't see how... As it stands now my refiners grab random ore from the cargo hold and if I try to manually remove it to place some other ore in it it will re-grab it before I can make the switch! I have to shut the refiner down completely, load it, then restart. Not cool.

    As someone else mentioned... we need some control over assembler output. I want all ore in one container, all finished products in another. I feel like the devs are probably planning to add this eventually, but when?

    That's all I can think of for now, please correct me if I am wrong, or these things have some easy fix i don't know about :)
     
  28. exorcarnifex Apprentice Engineer

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    101
    Prioritizing refinery: The refinery will grab the first ore available. Put the ore you want refined in front of any other ore and refineries will grab that first. I do it all the time.

    Ship building. Don't start with a landing gear. I have a building platform that consists of a 5-block-high tower with 5 blocks sticking out (upside down L shape). To that, 2 small landing gear locked to the last large block. From that, I extended out about 5 small blocks, and down 5 blocks. Then I build my ships from the top down. No shaking, and plenty of room. I attached a projector for easy printing too. :)
     
  29. Jarin Trainee Engineer

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    78
    A thousand times repeating this. Piracy (or 50 refineries) should NOT be the sole option for large ship construction in survival.
     
  30. TidusKlein Apprentice Engineer

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    For thous of you that are unhappy with the cargo containers and how cat walks and conveyors are too expensive, there is a mod for that http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=376938142.

    also I agree that the welding speed of a ship welder should out class a hand one.
    along with the thruster components...just aint fun when you have to wait a week for your platinum to finish
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 24, 2015
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