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*Official Poll* Balancing Survival - Your thoughts and suggestions

Discussion in 'Survival' started by CommanderHerpDerp, Jul 2, 2014.

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  1. Sarxis Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    11
    I play with 10x capacity settings in Survival, but I really need the character capacity to be closer to 20,000 units as opposed to 4000. I know the realism will be gone at that point, but it's just too time consuming to deal with grabbing extra components to build stuff in Survival all of the time.

    Please give us more customizability in regards to capacities and processing!
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  2. Syncaidius Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    824
    If you make them faster, increase the power usage too. Or let us set the speed/power drain via a slider.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 13, 2015
  3. Two Apprentice Engineer

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    300
    I don't think they should be made explicitly faster, after all you are supposed to build a welder ship, and you won't do that if there is no need for it.

    What really bothers me about building things, is that you never know what you are going to need. If building things would be a bit more streamlined and 'obvious' I wouldn't have to run back and forth between my assembler and my build target all the time. Also placing the construction site is always guesswork on what you need. I would suggest to streamline that as follows:

    - All constructions require one of the following to start: Steel plate for exterior components (armor, thrusters, ...). Interior Plate for all decorative blocks (door, pillar, window, ...). Construction Component for all machines and functional blocks (assembler, turrets, conveyors, tubes, ...)
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. Kittani Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    68
    My suggestions...
    -------------------------

    1) Make sure when you are done that a player, with gun, grinder, welder, and jackhammer, can carry at least all of the components needed to build any single large block. That should be your upper limiting factor. it's stupid when I can carry enough parts for an entire small ship but not enough to make a beacon that's half the size.

    2) times for welding grinding, as have been said, need to have a separate 1/3/10 setting.

    3) As for the balance the other way, with refining and building times for refineries and assemblers, just make them all the same for ores. There's no reason to have them take different times since the rarity already controls supply. The assembler should be able to build any solid metal object, like a pipe, plate, or girder the fastest, bout as fast as it is now. "Component" items should be the longest at about half the time a construction component takes now. Other items like displays, glass, or plastic components should be in between.

    4) As for the cost of components in terms of materials needed, they aren't all that bad if you refer to #1. The issue comes in when you have to sort containers and materials in refineries and assemblers. I would like to see most blocks have their inventories removed from them. Assemblers and refineries should all count towards a global pool of capacity to either refine or assemble a given number of items at the same time. Say you had 3 refineries and three assemblers. You could set two to refine iron and one to do gold, while you have your assemblers all cranking out construction components at the same time. The Q's just move each next item into the next available slot as it becomes available. It is useless for conveyor parts and connectors to actually have inventory. It should all be pooled and sorted together based on connected systems. Organizing inventory is the hardest task in this game on larger ships and it is pointless as the conveyor can move any item from any connected container to another. The display should just be a summary you can see everything in the system from.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. Zourin Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    142
    I already have to have welders accelerated just to 'get sh*t done' at a decent pace, and ship welders are abysmal when their 'welding' is split among a dozen blocks because division is an assh*le.

    My problem right now is that battery cells are huge, and there's no tiny welder for small ship/small cargo containers so that I can build a micro-drone through a 1x1 station hallway built into an asteroid where a full ship can't go.

    So.. Division Is A Richard, and I would like a tiny ship welder so I can have some help moving things for 'tight space construction'.


    Also, how do you fit a half-ton of radio components into a sensor?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 22, 2015
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. mecra Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    183
    Been playing for a bit. here are my balancing thoughts for Survival. Many are similar to other people's opinions.

    1. Make it easier to determine what parts are needed to complete a block. There's too much running back and forth to a cargo container, especially if the block uses large items that are very heavy. This is mitigated by welder ships, but you can't use those ships inside your large ship.
    2. Some part weights are ridiculous. The above sensor is a prime example. Either reduce needed resources or change weights across the board.
    3. Make all small parts available as large variants and vice versa. Weapons are a big part of this. I want a large fixed minigun that's vanilla instead of a special mod.
    4. Allow different space suits to facilitate specialties. (Welder, cargo carrying, combat/boarding suit, etc) the generic suit is ok, but needs to allow customization.
    5. Allow neutral / enemy options for all turreted weapons.
    6. Allow power variance in thrusters. It's getting ridiculous the amount of thrusters that are needed to move a large ship. So instead of making the ships look comical, allow thrusters to be configured to use a certain amount of power that ranges from .5 to 5x for example. Balance out the component requirements by the power requirements. (Thus needing to make more reactors.) Maybe 5x power is 10x the power requirements.
    7. Allow all glass to have 50% to 75% of a heavy block's armor value. We all want to make open vision bridges and the current glass limitations in combat make this impossible.
    8. Cargo Ships need to have the option to allow them to pass by the player's base if it detects one within 9-10k. We need an edge to combat and surviving in space. You don't even need to add a full AI, just the ability for the ship to pass by.
    9. Remove the ability to build a flight chair on an enemy or neutral ship if one already exists. It's a stupid way to take over a ship. Force players to get into the cockpit/bridge.
    10. Increase all Cargo Ship weapon engagement ranges to 700-800. I'm tired of being able to shoot these ships and they can't shoot back.
    11. Missiles need to be able to be effectively shot down by miniguns. Minis do bad damage to large heavy block so it's better to do missile launchers. Make miniguns more defensive weapons but good at that role.
    12. Give us something to use all that damn gravel for. ;)
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  7. Krutchen Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    159
    Okay so, This isn't entirely survival related, but it's something that's been irking me for a bit that sort of is related to the balance of the game period.
    Why is it that inertial dampeners are drastically more effective than retro-burning?
    If you go in a straight line, and slow down by holding S, you'll take a whole lot longer than you would if you just flipped dampeners on and slowed yourself down that way.
    The same goes for flipping a 180 turn and blasting your forward thrusters.

    The whole inertial dampeners being more powerful thing has irked me ever since I got this game, it just goes against all of my instincts from playing space sims and all that. Does anyone know a way to change this mechanic?
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  8. acidmetal Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    163
    Survival is way too easy right now. It's not surviving, it's just matter of mining the resources and building whatever you want.

    Introduce radioactivity. Certain asteroids are radioactive, you would need ship coated with special blocks, or remote controlled ship/drone to mine the resources. Example have Uranium to be radioactive, you will start to take damage if you are near it without proper protection. Makes Solar Panels more plausible as well, at the start at least. The concept of fuel right now is almost meaningless, it might matter until you find a Uranium spot and mine it, then you have fuel until forever.

    Introduce solar storm, it would damage/knock out certain blocks/parts of the ship. Not destroy them, but damage them to a point where they need to be repaired to use them again. Or it would only damage power sources, like batteries, reactors, solar panels. So it would knock out all electricity in your grid and you would need to repair stuff.

    Decrease mining amounts a bit? Maybe refining amounts a bit as well. Increase the costs of assembling things. Introduce quality of ore? Low quality ore yields 25% of current amount, normal quality 50% and high quality 100% of current amounts. Have high quality to be rare, so when you find it, you will shout out f*** yeah, instead of going "oh nickel, okay". One option would be to introduce different kinds of Refineries or Furnaces. Some refine with more yield while costing significantly more to build and some refine with less yield while being cheaper to build, this would be probably easier to implement than quality of ore, since the mechanics already exist in the game.

    Oxygen is practically meaningless resource as well right now. You just have to pop into a cockpit once in a while, that's it. Acquiring Ice is so easy and you need only so little to have Oxygen for endless time. Previous idea would compliment this a bit.

    Change skybox to darker, more space-like theme. So you would actually need lights on your ship to navigate on darker side of asteroid or inside asteroid.

    Meteor Storm and now NPC drones are already good direction to go, but right now it still has no challenge.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2015
    • Like Like x 3
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. yokmp Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    40
    Now, in 1.105, you guys gave us all the new Hydrogen stuff and some other nice tweaks. But there are a few things i would like to point out.
    • the Oxygen Generator now needs a new name because it also produces Hydrogen now
    • we should get 2 Hydrogen and 1 Oxygen per 1 ice not 1-1/1 (i've build 1 Generator and attached 1 O-Tank and 1 H2-Tanks; when both Tanks turned on it fills both to the same level, when one tank is turned off it fills the other one twice the level as before by using the same amount of ice)
    • batteries now work as they should BUT the power reading is a bit weird atm
    • switching the battery to load causes the powerusage (the one in the gui) to show me e.g. 12% powerusage; by unticking that field it jumps to 46% usage but at a lower loadingspeed
    • the jetpack now uses hydrogen every time but it should maybe only use it when 'jetpacking' at gravity
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. Krougal Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,012
    So I just had a bad accident. Drill started kicking like a mule, god only knows why since I wasn't even moving. This has been happening a lot last few patches. Threw the ship backwards at over 10 m/s and I didn't realize I was in a bad position with another asteroid right behind me.
    The back of my ship crumpled. I lost 4 thrusters, 2 reactors, 1 efficiency module, several small cargo holds, etc, etc. I play on 1-1-1. I have plenty of all ores in cargo still but it will take days of playing to refine enough just to replace those. It would take me less time and effort to just start a new game.
    So either a really shitty job was done on balancing or this needs revisiting. Refining Pt is a total drag. The rest are tolerable, although I think a little higher purity for all the rares wouldn't hurt. If not that then less Pt per thruster component. Setting refinery speed highest would cut the time down to something acceptable but it's still ridiculous, we're talking 4 large ship small ions.
     
  11. Jas Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    443
    well, water doesnt mean double hydrogen and single oxygen, hydrogen have atomic mass 1 oxygen is a lot heavier, so i dont think excact calculation will not be 2H and 1O but just wait to ear some professor around

    EDIT: ok, sorry, my post is 100% useless, excuse me
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2015
    • Like Like x 1
  12. Lieu Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    15
    Indeed, large ship thrusters. It's been said before but here's a slightly different take: It's the disproportion that's the primary problem.

    Now, you can say to adjust the settings, speeds, etc. to what you enjoy but either:
    - Most of the blocks get done in some modest amount time.
    - The platinum for large thrusters takes a ridiculous amount of time and are prohibitive, ie 7 hours of base refinery time for each small thruster.
    OR
    - The platinum gets refined in a reasonable amount of time.
    - The other blocks' materials are completed super fast and are extremely cheap. You don't even bother thinking about them anymore.

    Whether you got there through x10 settings or mass refineries the result is the same. You get this weird dynamic where thrusters on large ships are the cost. You capture an NPC ship and the thruster components are like 90% of the entire value. Or you bump your ship, lose half the hull, no problem. Lose a large thruster and you're strangling yourself. The only thing comparable now I guess is heavy armor since the rebalance. That nickel and cobalt takes a long time. But then arc furnaces are so cheap. How many do I build to complement my refineries? What kind of ships should I be building? Batteries vs reactors? I like those questions. I have choices. Platinum is either just a pain in the ass or it makes other materials like dirt.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  13. Jas Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    443
    i think that start scenarios and spawn ships need a revamp, actually there is no "normal" space start in planets worlds
    (like starting whit space ship - or asteroid station/platform - near an asteroid cluster near the moon; in short words game lacks of better and more start options, like a mix of the space easy starts whit planets worlds), and the atmospheric lander lacks a bit in materials imho (ok i know you can cannibalize the lander and get some thousands motrors from big atmos thusters); it's ok for those who want a more hardcore/callenging start but i think should be there a bit better start for planetary spawns expecially for new players, for example it should be good to add some raw Silicon ore (Si) and some bit of iron and nickel ingots to the container to let us to build at start more than just 2 batteries (240 cells) and 6 solar panel, and imo there is a lack of documenation in-game for new players that explain how energy works, like knowing the fact reactors and other discharging batteries waste 20% of the energy when recharging other batteries or the power cell scrap-grinding mechanic, the energy loads priorities, the idle consumption of functional blocks etc, because energy managment is an huge aspect of survival there should be more in-game information about this, like a text panel "lone survivor manual" (but i didnt look at the tutorial scenarios yet, so maybe im just saying something redundant)

    p.s.: ok, i think this post should have his own thread :p
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  14. kcjunkbox Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,131
    Is this still ongoing?
     
    • Late Late x 1
  15. jandraelune Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    218
    Balance never ends. As new things come in or old things go out...balance needs a new pass.

    I say projectile ammo could be assembled faster, now with more then just Meteors and Cargo ships, Pirates as well. Along with the ammo needs is Magnesium ore rarity in roids, needs to move up with the rate ammo gets melted into targets.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  16. kcjunkbox Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,131
    I didn't read through every single post but if this has not been suggested, it should be. Currently a large armor block is 25 steel plates. I'm not sure how 25 plates would wrap around a 6 sided cube...? What is the length and width of a steel plate? Has that been established? I would think that a plate was a half meter by half meter which would mean you would need 150. If this is done, the weight of each plate should be redetermined so that the weight of the block stays the same. This really isn't a big deal with large blocks. However, with small blocks. 1 plate is required to make all the different shapes of armor blocks so there is no weight advantage to slope blocks or 2 to 1 tip blocks, etc. like there is for large armor blocks which require less than 25 plates. If we did the steel plates are half meter by half meter then a small block would use 6 plates and 3 for a slope and so on for all the rest and we would have the weight advantage like we do with large blocks, which would make more sense.

    Is there a reference to the physical sizes of all the components?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. Elon Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    9
    I've played quite a bit of survival and my tip is to not go for realism, accept the fact that this is a game, and not a simulator and go for playability.
    When designing ships I also run into weird balancing issues with the blocks, like the fact that a conveyor tube weighs 792 Kg while the Conveyor block weighs 524 Kg meaning the tubes are completely useless, but this is just one example of many where resources and weights are not properly balanced

    The main issue is playability at the start, especially when starting on a planet where finding resources can be hard and you get constantly attacked by hounds. One thing which would be really cool to add which would solve most of these problems are AI companions which could protect your property while your are gone (coding wise an lone AI companion could prevent hounds from spawning and stay idle to reduce server lag) and they could also help you mine and transport materials (Transporting materials is my biggest issue here since it's so tedious and not really fun, you want to get to building, not running back and forth). It would also be cool to have built a station in creative, give the AI companion the blueprint/put down a projector block and then the AI companion could help you build the station. This would make single player survival a lot more fun too, that's my opinion on balancing survival, focus on playability and not realism. And please add AI companions :)

    Another cool thing to add would be a new module for the assembler which makes the assembler produce a specific part a lot faster, so you could have "factories" for specific part.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  18. LordBane Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    1
    Personally, the only balance issue I've run into so far is those Cyberdogs spawn way too often.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  19. Azirahael Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    154
    I'd suggest the cyberdogs/wolves should target you, and not eat your vehicles.

    And have the occasional Bigger monster capable of eating blocks/vehicles spawn.
    Esp given that auto turret targeting is kinda spotty.

    Dangerous to you, not your stuff.
    With the occasional block-eating monster to encourage thick walls.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. chemicalscum Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    318
    Power usage/ efficiency could use a rebalance. One battery for a small wheeled vehicle is overkill, there is almost never a need to recharge it. Maybe we could use more sizes of batteries, just like the cargo containers. It would make very simple structures like a pillar with a blinking light or something much easier to build. OK.. we need a recharge tool as well then, but that would be great. An upgraged welder could become a multifunctional welder / recharge tool. :)
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  21. Vsevolod Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    2
    Hello. Could I make a suggestion for game design?
    I'm fan of survival mod. Now planets are just sandbox for sandbox. Pirate bases and wolves just try to destroy you and give nothing. There is not necessary for landing. May be you could add some rare recourse (for high lvl blocks) that can be found only at planets. And may be if you will add unique blocks or equipment that can be reached only at pirate bases it will give a reason to raid them. Like minecraft's brilliants in deep caves and tags in mines or unique recourses in hell. These features will bring more variety for survival mod and make more tiers of game progress.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  22. Elfi Wolfe Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    498
    I test build and play in 1-1-1 survival mode. It seems good to me. I use small remote control drones to do my welding and grinding for me. It is a case of building up the infrastructure to support operations.
    Build on pillars and use welders to protect the pillars and fry anything attacking the pillars.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2016
  23. Muppel Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    16
    Yes, playing survival is simply not possible at the moment. As you can not build a base. The moment you set down the lander the spiders start eating the lander's gears.
    That's no fun at all to play.

    I'd suggest spawning the hostiles only at special spawning places and only if a player moves to close to it. Also have the hostiles stop following the player if she moves far away from the den (spawning block).
    Actually it would be great if you could influence the areas that will be the hostile's turfs in the biome map of the planet.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  24. Sufficient Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    19
    Air vents should definitely be cheaper to build than they are. The current cost of lights is good because their level of importance is low, so similarly low costs can be fairly done for the vents.
     
  25. Baughn Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    7
    Maybe have the mobs attack the player in all cases, but only attack their ship if they set down next to a base? Or, actually...

    They could keep track of which locations the player spends time at, and dynamically reduce the spawn rate for those places. Then avoid having them attack grids, except if the map says the player is (almost) *never* at that location -- so we'd need to worry about wolves when we're out mining or scouting, but not back home.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  26. System Error Message Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    96
    instead of changing player inventory why not allow the player to build and attach a small cargo container to the player. This will give the player 2 inventories but also more weight to deal with. I disagree with players having huge inventory spaces because that would make welding ships useless. I like having utility ships as they make life a lot easier.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  27. AutoMcD Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,369
    I still want to be able to pick up a small block and move it. Like a landing gear and set it on the ground..
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  28. Nobodyhasthis Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    222
    Basically your been trying to define the whole survival game play experience solely on the amount of time spent grinding out resources. Which are the used to build ship which will never have any place to go. Shoot a dog and then a spider and the survival game is mostly finished. So it is just question of how many hours game play does it take to get that far.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  29. Azirahael Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    154
    we need more things to fight, hide from and discover.

    And some optional food mechanics wouldn't go amiss, either.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  30. Robotnik V Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    382
    There are two ways that you can start a new game on the alien world.
    1. First, land the lander. Second, grab a gun. Third, kill first wave of saberiods. Fourth, put welders around your landing gear and turn them on. You start with enough resources to make the welders to defend your base.
    2. Build the welders before you land.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
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