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On the recent negative reviews

Discussion in 'Suggestions and Feedback' started by vozze, Aug 11, 2017.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. vozze Trainee Engineer

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    36
    I have been here from the beginning and I have always, and still do, loved the game. However, the community doesn't same to agree with me and I understand why.

    Space Engineers has always been my #1 favourite game even from it's early development. I have always loved the engine, graphics and building mechanics. These mechanics scream potential but many players are taken aback because even in Beta this potential hasn't been realised.

    Players now want interesting things to do apart from building and the first few survival hours. They crave better multiplayer mechanics or more interesting survival elements. I too would love to see biological needs of the engineers. Some other great things would be a sense of danger because of pirates or a more lively universe.

    I love Space Engineers and Keen and I will always continue to support the game because it has given me so many things but something needs to be done to grab the attention of the masses back or I fear that SE many be overtaken by its competitors.

    Anyway, thanks if you read this far down. I hope this is useful for the developers. Let's make space Engineers great again!
    -Vozze
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2017
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  2. NoThanks Apprentice Engineer

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    458
    Space Engineers is as deserving of the negative reviews it gets as it is of the positive ones. Simple fact of the matter is the game is both awesome and terrible all in the same instant. I've never encountered a buggier, more frustrating game than this one. But in the same light... with the exception of one or two console games... I've never spent more time in a game... Ever.

    I'll always have a special place for SE, but I suspect this is a prime example of a game that's bitten off more than it can chew. And it doesn't help that there seems to be very little real direction for the end results. I hope to see this game become something, but I have lost a lot of faith in that due to technical limitations, sporadic developer feedback, and general malaise that has that has afflicted this game and much of the community. Even modders are starting to give up on their creations because of the exceptionally unstable nature of this game.

    Let's hope the ship steers in the right direction.
     
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  3. sioxernic Senior Engineer

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    SPORADIC? developer feedback?
    Yes... the weekly developer feedback...

    If you are talking about roadmaps and the likes... I would prefer if LESS games did roadmaps so you don't end up with threads like for starbound to this day complaining about lack of Server Side characters..... (It was PROMISED by the devs)...
    ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?
    THIS is early access... Every major moddable early access game is "exceptionally unstable" to mod for... every single update can break every single mod...

    No... More likely the modders are giving up on their creations because they would like to do other stuff than maintain their creations for the rest of their lives and want to do other stuff...
     
  4. NoThanks Apprentice Engineer

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    458
    No, I am not in fact kidding you. The state of the game's early access-ness is not in question here. And the stability of the game speaks for itself, unless you are playing a different version than I have been.

    The state of "every major moddable early access game" is also not in question here. I don't remember mentioning that at all... but I can see that it's important to you so I'll go ahead and let you have that point... whatever point it may have been.

    And the likelihood of modders giving up 'cuz they gots other sh|t to do is certainly a possibility. I would guess that anyone who put as much work into some of these mods for a game that they have spent literally thousands of hours on would continue until the game itself forced them to stop... But we can of course see different reasons for the same outcome, one of the many wonders of diversity!

    The weekly developer updates are not so much feedback as they are updates... not sure how that distinction is lost on you but we'll run with it all the same. When I Say "feedback" I mean here. On forums. About posted bugs that are in some cases weeks, months, years old. Some have never been addressed. Some have never even had a developer footprint in the thread. That is what I call sporadic at best, and sloppy at worst. And you and I can disagree on that as well.

    I'm looking forward to more CAPS filled rants from you though.
     
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  5. sioxernic Senior Engineer

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    2,535
    ........ Nuff said.
    --- Automerge ---
    And I am going to go back to my point of a roadmap.
    You don't know if there has been a dev looking at it, and it should stay that way.

    If they post a "seen" or what ever in the post, people get expectations. You might hate the working behind the scenes, but it helps a lot against the ire of communities... Keen already has experience with doing promises they couldn't keep (see Miner Wars). I don't mind criticism of Keen, but do not post super vague shit that is essentially a lie about them. You clarified in your reply there, but what you said initially you make it seem like Keen is silent.
     
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  6. PLPM Junior Engineer

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    841
    Updates are updates and feedback is feedback.
    One we have every week, the other is obscure in nature.

    And Keen IS silent... most of the time, the updates and the streams are an exception, but a lot of times that leaves a lot to be desired.

    Rotors and pistons, one of the earliest, most annoying blocks keen has been dealing with. We know they´re working on fixing them, we´ve been said such. But that´s all we´ve been said. It´s been very vague, and it´s not that vague is bad, but that it´s been vague for three years and improvements have come and gone. Rotors and pistons are improving, but I know they still need a lot of work... and that´s a scary prospect.

    There´s no shame in telling others that you´ve encountered more problems than you thought there would be, but a clear communication goes an extra mile to improve on the quality of that.
     
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  7. sioxernic Senior Engineer

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    You literally just said the reason for being vague... They are not sure if their current fix is fix enough, they don't want to promise anything, etc. Also what more than "We are working on it" is needed to be said? "Hi guys, let us give the exact technical specifications of the Havok physics engine along with our very specific coding fixes we have attempted to implement"? No... That shouldn't be a public thing.

    No, but there is many many many many lost dollars for doing that.
    And doing that loses you money as well.
     
  8. PLPM Junior Engineer

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    841
    I didn´t know you had a major in money managment...

    You might want to not throw that kind of argument around. It doesn´t have a real weight. There have been plenty of outrages and dubious dev time spent on several things which the community didn´t like or outright hated. The time spent on those is a far cry from the one that would take a small dev blog on what´s going on with the team and answer some of the most pressing matters, so don´t talk about losing money.

    These are difficult times, communication with your playerbase goes a long way to prevent fatigue due to having to deal with that, to let us relate to the issues that are happening from the dev´s side instead of being in the the dark with a buggy/stale game. It does go a long way, and it´s not wasted money like you make it sound.
     
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  9. odizzido Junior Engineer

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    672
    Keen has been asking for reviews recently so of course there are going to be more negative ones.

    I think next week if they ask for reviews I might leave one and it won't be positive. The game doesn't work correctly and there isn't really anything to do in it beyond mess around. If I write a review that is what it's going to be based on.

    I am still hopeful that the game will be much better when they stop working on it though. I don't mind waiting another year or two.
     
  10. SpecFrigateBLK3 Senior Engineer

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    1,133
    Yay, more armchair management.
    None of us on here has a single fucking right to dictate how Keen does their thing. None of you armchair managers are qualified because you would wreck the company or yourself with these fucking demands. None of you would be hired as a manager. Check your egos.
     
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  11. NoThanks Apprentice Engineer

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    458
    Now I'm going to leave negative reviews on this thread.

    As for "arm chair management" I'm not telling them how to run their game. I'm telling them (often) how their game isn't running properly, and if possible how to reproduce the issue... There is a difference.

    So far as I Can tell the KSH business model must be paying off. They have sold many many copies of what may very well be a hopelessly bugged game. I'm just hoping they are spending that money wisely and putting it back into the game. The jury is still out on whether or not I believe that to be the case but, I am still hopeful.

    And most importantly and sadly overlooked here is the point I made about this being the buggiest game I've ever played... and one of the top 1 or 2 games I've spent time on in my entire life, the only possible exceptions being Tribes 2, and BFBC2. The fact that it's this screwed up and yet people like us keep coming back to it says something. And I just really hope it isn't something that the DEVs are taking for granted.
     
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  12. SpecFrigateBLK3 Senior Engineer

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    1,133
    Everyone knows it's a buggy game. Have some fucking patience. Bug reports are one thing, this is another.
     
  13. NoThanks Apprentice Engineer

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    458
    You (and others) are taking this so incredibly personally. As if I've been here posting libel about KSH in the form of outright lies, and twisted truths. There are few... if any complaints/concerns here that aren't perfectly justified.

    Now I'm curious as to why you're responding to this opinion as if it was a personal attack against you. You do realize it's an opinion, and like a$$holes, everyone's got one right? I'm not preaching to you or attempting to invalidate your opinion simply stating my own.

    You tell me to be patient... My rebuttal to that good sir is learn the value of civil discourse and meaningful debate.
     
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  14. SpecFrigateBLK3 Senior Engineer

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    1,133

    Because it's fucking annoying. It's like I'm watching one of my favorite movies and then hearing how someone doesn't like how it was filmed in a certain place.
    Furthermore, it is my opinion that you sound like ANOTHER, as in the latest of a long line, of armchair managers who don't know what they're talking about. There is an epidemic of this behavior everywhere and I intend to, if not stop the behavior, at least call it out as the dick move that it is. I put up with enough of this kind of crap. I've called my parents on this in my younger brother's defense, best believe I'm calling you on it.
     
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  15. NoThanks Apprentice Engineer

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    458
    That's great! I think we're really making some progress here. So tell me about your parents?

    Do they often force you to come to your wee brother's defense? Leave you feeling like the last bastion of justice in a world that's gone crazy?

    The epidemic as you call it... when did you first notice it? Can you tell me how it made you feel? Annoyed? Betrayed? Like the world was against the very thing that you love?

    Don't let the emotion frighten you, embrace it. FACE it and see what's there. You and I... You and I are going to get through this.

    Together.
     
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  16. FlakMagnet Senior Engineer

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    1,551
    This thread made ABSOLUTELY no sense to me .... until I remembered to click the 'show ignored content' button.....

    then I remembered why I had chosen to ignore posts from that particular member.

    The game is officially in Beta, which means bugs to be fixed, features to be polished and a lot of work to be done before the game gets to be called anything like finished. As Keens customers ( we did pay money for the game ) we have a right to expect the product to behave as advertised. As 'early access' they told us it was unfinished, buggy, and liable to change massively.

    Personally...I think Keen need to do better with their documenting of bugfixes and especially the hotfix releases, as we never know what has been fixed and what hasn't. But as far as running their business goes....they have grown quite a bit over the last couple of years, so they must be doing something right....
     
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  17. SpecFrigateBLK3 Senior Engineer

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    1,133
    So you've never heard horror stories about customers raging at an employee when the store doesn't carry a specific item? You've never heard of someone insist on trying to return an item clearly past the date of return? Never heard of stories where people are so stuck in their own little world they taught their child that every color is blue? As for my brother, my parents were consistently telling him everything he ALREADY KNEW about his chosen career. Insisting he had no idea what he was getting into when he's done the research and has gone to college for it. Talked to others in the field. Trying to make his decisions for him and stunt his growth as an adult.
    Detailed enough for you? Or should I go on about how my parents taught me basically nothing practical for life and riddled me with anxiety because of their very narrow expectations of how one should behave? The anger and self-esteem issues I inherited and am actively struggling against? The same issues that could have crippled him the same way I've been? The absolute burning need to not let this shit go unchallenged lest it become the status quo?
    And that's just off the top of my head.
     
  18. FoolishOwl Junior Engineer

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    522
    You're not doing KSH any favors by raging at people for using the forums for the explicit purposes for which KSH created them.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2017
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  19. SpecFrigateBLK3 Senior Engineer

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    1,133
    I'm not allowed to talk about what's wrong with people? Others are doing the exact same to Keen. Turnabout is fair play.
     
  20. sioxernic Senior Engineer

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    2,535
    This I can agree to.

    @Everyone

    The problem I have is not people doing fair criticism, but when people do such hyperbolic examples of misgrievances that they are for all intents and purposes lying (even if it was not the intent).
     
  21. FoolishOwl Junior Engineer

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    522
    I notice some earlier posts I'd skipped over, and there's some personalistic stuff here that's out of line.

    I apologize for contributing.
     
  22. NoThanks Apprentice Engineer

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    458
    @SpecFrigateBLK3
    I've heard many an illegitimate tirade against perfectly innocent representatives of a failed product or plan. I have myself stepped up to defend the chief bug reporter here (feel free to ask him), when people have attacked him unfairly as is often the case with irate customers. I however have at no point in this discussion shown the explosive and very telling rage-join that you have gifted us with. Truly, the anger that grips you must be a terrible thing and for that you have my sympathy.

    It sounds to me like your brother stood up on his own as much as you stood up for him. Commendable on both fronts and a shame that your parents couldn't quite learn to let you fly on your own while at the same time teaching you nothing of value. I fear I Cannot relate as my parents have both been out of my life since before grade school, I did however learn to move past their absence and embrace myself as I stand, instead of clinging to some false ideal imposed upon me. As such I have very little rage to go around, very little upsets me in fact. Even the self-important rants of small, angry little people carry little weight as far as I'm concerned, they are just mad... let 'em have their anger since it's all that's left for them, or at least the only thing left that still comforts.

    But if you decide to not "let shit go" and your only response to it is unbridled rage at the first person you see that's offending your ideals.... what are you doing to the status quo there? Improving it with your anger? Do you honestly believe that young sir? There's a better way.
     
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  23. PLPM Junior Engineer

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    841
    Discussions stop being meaningful when they get personal. Civil and rational thought goes out of the window... it is however a great way to discharge against the other person...

    Oh well. At least the forums aren´t as toxic as they once were, which even then, wasn´t much at all, I´m happy with that, I like that.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  24. Levits Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,122
    I've yet to write a review myself because I cannot recommend it "as a game" in it's current form and I really really like this game. If there is one aspect of Space Engineers that I can recommend it on, it would still be its "potential". You have a platform with blocks that you can build with. But there is nothing besides your imagination that gives it any coherent challenge or reason for doing anything in the game-world. This may have been Keens vision from the beginning, but it's not what I was hoping for when I bought it. But then again I took the gamble with early access and bought it because it allows you to build Three-dimensional objects. <since AutoCAD is friggin' expensive.

    For me, the games combat mechanics and flow is lackluster (or completely one-sided) at best. Armor is separated into light and heavy, both of which are tissue paper against PMW's and gatling guns... but they just soak up rockets like they're nothing. The default weapons are lackluster, the threats and enemy that you may face are not that challenging (annoying more like it... better/different/more enemies and/or better AI is needed), the most dangerous things in the game right now are the 2-3 main things that set it apart from other such building-block games (rotors, wheels, and pistons) and even landing gear has been known to get you killed from time to time. <But we can exclude them as a bug and therefore not "expected" to be part of combat or hazards in the end (fingers crossed).

    Mining is... ok. Easily repetitive and the ore and even components are not difficult to find/hunt down, mine/capture, refine/grind. Typical "grind" to get resources. I mean, you can at least get creative with how you setup your industrial infrastructure; so it has its appeal. But in the end, why spend all that time mining if there is nothing to do with all that stuff that you build with it? Right, build stuff... but what would you do with the stuff you build?

    There's also very little "survival" aspects that I can see in the game. It simply has no real sense of danger or concern as far as trying to keep yourself alive.

    And there is limited re/playability for any solo-player action and the only major draw for it in terms of actual gameplay is online or with other players. Which I would say, if online multiplayer is your thing, is a reason to buy SE. But if you are a offline/solo-player, I cannot recommend it at present. Not as a game; you might as well simply play it in creative mode and cut out the resource grind.

    What I can recommend SE for though is not what I would consider actually playing a game.

    -It's good as a 3D construction program <you can even print some of the things you build in it. You can build 3 dimensional structures in a open space and then fly, test, and drive them around. This is fun and this is why I've racked up so many hours in it.

    -It's good for those who want to play around with programming or modding. Not my thing, but it's worth noting as it is open source and the programming block is "easy" to use <well, to hear someone who knows how to program tell it.

    -You can explore 3 planets and their moons... aside from that, you have the infinite vastness of empty space with very uniformly placed asteroids... that also look very similar to each other most of the time. <It's definitely no Minecraft. If you've traveled 100km's out and away from the starting solar system, you know what to expect for the next 1000000... ad infinitum km's.

    Don't get me wrong, this is a very fun "game" to mess around in and I would suggest anyone familiar with From the Depths, Minecraft, or those who like to play around with Lego's to give it a try, but I see nothing in its current state that would allow me to say that it offers anything particularly special as far as survival, things to do, or things to interact with in the game-world. To consider it anything, I would have to say it's on par with the game Besiege. But Besiege was never intended to have such expansive gameplay. You can build some really complicated stuff (helicopters) and then use that stuff for a goal. I'm still curious what Space Engineers ultimate goal is or will be. But the content that it currently has still simply feels like a placeholder.

    Pros:
    -Has arcade-like physics that are simple to use and understand; making construction and flying your constructions simple and easy. (Not like From the Depths.)
    -Has great Visuals. (The game-world and blocks actually look great.)
    -Lets you build all kinds of things by giving you some preset blocks. (Current block sets are still missing a few things and the variety of blocks is nowhere near as expansive as From the Depths.)
    -Has pistons, rotors, and other blocks that use/enact forces on other blocks to let you build some really interesting mechanical things.
    -The entire game-world is fully destructible.

    Pros and Cons:
    -Resources are limited to a few basic ore/materials, but they are everywhere. (You wont be needing to do much to have an infinite supply in the first 30 minutes of playing... platinum however is a bit more challenging to acquire if you're starting on a planets surface.)

    Cons:
    -Open "infinite" world is mostly empty at present with 3 planets and 3 moons. The rest is "randomly generated" asteroids and a few derelict ships that may pop up.
    -The current game-world has no objectives what so ever. It does have a campaign though... But it's a separate entity that is not part of the infinite/open world.
    -There is no survival aspect of the game other than your character can die. (most of the 3 things that you need in order to survive are trivial at best.)
    -Combat is limited to heavy armor and light armor and machineguns and rockets. (No cannons, lasers, or flak weaponry; which means no ship specialization. Bigger with Moar gunz = Better.)
    -There is a basic list of blocks and block shapes but the overall amount and variety is limited to 3. (2 basic lengths of building blocks, Only 3 specific thrusters, 2 types of weapons (3 if you include pmw's), and about 2 or three variants of most other blocks with moderate differences between them.
    -The game is not fully optimized. (Yes, it must be stated. Some issues still arise from time to time.)
    -Lord Klang...

    This would be my review of it right now. I can say that I enjoy it, but not as a game to be played. As a game with things to do in it, I could not give it a positive review. There are far too many other games out there that I enjoy more due to the fact that they either have an object (any objective: aka Minecraft and even Ark) and/or that they have things that give your creations a purpose (such as From the Depths mission to conquer the map).

    It's an opinion and therefore based on my personal feelings of the game, but I'm not going out of my way to outright lie about what the game has currently available.

    Expecting some flak for this post but screw it :woot:
     
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  25. Helaton Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    208
    I play SE for multiplayer and its one of the areas where it is getting better, but albeit slowly with doubts whether we'll ever get 25-32 players online doing the things we were able to do prior to planets in multiplayer years ago.

    Some of my issues with multiplayer (mostly DS) currently:
    • Server Desyncs
    • Constant bugs (inventory glitches like 0.01 leftovers, invisible objects requiring relog)
    • Multi-grid constructs (connector bugs, landing gears, rotors, pistons)
    • DS Server Crashes (Vanilla)
    • Lack of multi-threading to leverage hardware
    • Lack of server management tools. (Torch very much early access at this point)
    • Keeping it running well (DS) is almost a full time job.
    • Running a DS requires a dedicated high power machine which reduces its multiplayer adoption versus game services etc.
    I don't expect that a lot of the things on this list are going to be fixed. That's just the result of the state that the game is in. Which leaves me hoping for an SE 2 that may be able to, or waiting 10 years for when regular hardware at that time can run it.

    SE currently really seems like its meant for local multiplayer or single player in its current iteration. DS is a negative experience.
     
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  26. Lord Grey Apprentice Engineer

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    366
    I bought SE because the promises sound, well, very promising. I didn't expect Planets, because they weren't necessary for the game mechanics. As they came, they were a nice gimmick, but still not necessary or special useful, had no dedicated roll, and the multiplayer problems made it hazardous to land on them. A lot changed since then. But still, the game isn't were my expectations are. And it never will be. The limitations implemented from the base will prevent that, mostly the havoc engine. But that's nothing negative. Even in it's actual form it keeps one busy for hours. Mostly because it has a learning curve. But indeed, once you get a grip on the games basics, there is nothing in the long run to achieve. At least if you don't belong to the people enjoying senseless destruction.
    Still, I'm disappointed that the rotor and pistons are still a problem. I would have fallen back to a simpler version of that just to get them working, and tried without the knowledge of the customers to get them working and let them flow back into the product. I can't shake the feeling that Keen indeed bite of more than they can swallow, that they lack the skill to get what they want. When the Alpha changed to Beta I thought maybe they want to get SE to an end to start with a better foundation to program SE 2. But this will only work if they get SE to a decent level of playability, otherwise they will be the company that blew it forever.
    This would be sad, then Keen managed to hit a nerve in the gamer scene, bringing a new genre (OK, this can be debated) on the market that now many try to copy. And the last of Empyrion looks very promising. However it is lacking a lot of good ideas SE offers. And SE lacks a lot of good things that Empyrion has.

    All in all, I'm not very satisfied with the game. What brings me back to it from time to time is to check what has changed and if the mods still work that are important to me.

    And I have to agree that personal attacks and emotions aren't helping in exchanging opinions. Stay rational, I'm an adult man with an opinion, and I reserve the right to change my opinion.
     
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  27. Syncaidius Junior Engineer

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    824
    A lot of people will likely see this bullet point and go "but SE is multi-threaded!". Multi-threading support in the coming months/years needs to be more than just "throw a sub-system into its own thread". They really need to be splitting up systems so they can run across several hardware threads where available. Perhaps they've already started doing this, but on my Ryzen 1600, SE maxes it out at around 30% usage (across 3 - 5 threads). The CPU has 6-cores/12 threads available in total. I've also asked a couple of steam/rl friends with i7s if its an issue on their CPUs too; The answer was yes.

    They still have a long way to go. Much of the time the sim speed tanks down to the low 0.3 - 0.5, yet doesn't make use of available system resources (even at 60 fps) to bring it back up, so I would go as far as to say that its more important they solve the issues sooner given that SE is essentially handicapping itself.

    I can't speak for the dedicated server side of things, but if the same issues exist there, then the devs have even more reasons to get on top of all the multi-threading issues/limitations, given that multiplayer servers tend to need all the CPU resources they can get to support a decent amount of players without degrading player experience.

    AMD/Ryzen has set off the core-count race (similar to how the clock-speed race was back in early 2000s), so its likely over the next 5 years we'll see more and more cores in CPUs from both Intel and AMD. Games that can scale up with higher thread-counts if/when needed will be at a massive advantage; Something SE currently doesn't seem capable of doing (Yet ™).
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2017
  28. NoThanks Apprentice Engineer

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    458
    Adult opinions are the bread and butter of civil discussion and meaningful debate.

    The fact the game has so much promise is probably a good reason some people are so easily upset about the game... be it in defending the premise, or in attacking the apparent incompetence behind the scenes. In some ways it's good to know that it makes people so emotional... after all you don't freak out about things you don't care about... And any good game needs a passionate player base. I just worry when passion turns sour and the people in charge of making things happen turn a blind eye to it.
     
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  29. FoolishOwl Junior Engineer

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    522
    I've always seen Space Engineers as fundamentally about model construction and simulation, a sandbox for spaceships. But I've been puzzled all along about KSH's direction. It's obviously incomplete as a sandbox; and while they've added more gameplay elements, it's obviously lacking in that respect as well. Over time, I've come to see that KSH is actively developing Space Engineers, and they're clearly following what the users say, so I have a good feeling about them in general.

    But it's a complete mystery to me where they're going. Are they going to add lots of support and options for multiplayer combat? More decorative elements and functional elements for modeling? Are they on the verge of announcing it's complete? What is their vision for Space Engineers?
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2017
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  30. sioxernic Senior Engineer

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    2,535
    I would say that is ... the worst... idea... ever...

    You have to be very very selective with who you listen to in your community as ... Let me tell you a story...
    I was in an SE community... At first... The person running it did all the choices himself, all of them... And that was bad... Everyone hated it...
    Then that person decided: We should make EVERYTHING!!! a community decision... all of it... And that was bad... Everyone thought what they made was nice, until they tried it.

    This might sound condescending, but it is the truth... A community rarely knows what they really want... They might think they know what they want, but when it is implemented they don't.

    And I think that is the big problem here... Their vision was "hijacked" by the community demanding planets, hydrogen fuel cells, etc... And they listened... I don't think there is much of Keen's vision left, or at least they don't have many work hours left to work on their own vision.
     
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