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Ore Transportation Mod - Need Community Help Please!

Discussion in 'General' started by Stollie, Jul 1, 2018.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Stollie Apprentice Engineer

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    136
    So I'm thinking about making a balancing mod to make survival more interesting but I need some input. I've put together this spreadsheet which lists the lift capacities of the different engines and the cargo capacity they take up.

    The idea is I want to make it more attractive to build larger wheeled vehicles on planets and dedicated space transports for transporting large amounts of Ore and Ingots by making the Ore's and Ingot's heavier.

    In Vanilla for some odd reason all Ore's weigh the exact same amount, the input I'm looking for is what do you think would be a 'balanced' amount of Ore/Ingots an engine type should be able to carry?

    Any feedback would be appreciated! :D

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oMp21emDBzCQxpUlbuiYbzlr6DUtarkxGyn03naKdfM/edit

    On-going reddit thread for comments/updates: -
    https://www.reddit.com/r/spaceengin...ransportation_mod_need_community_help_please/
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2018
  2. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    3,368
    I would proceed with caution. Multiplayer work is wrapping up and it appears they are going to return to features. This might be one of them.

    Do you intend to modify the weights of all ore, or just the stuff used for fuel?
     
  3. Stollie Apprentice Engineer

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    136
    All of them, on the modding side its not actually that much work, just changing some numbers in the XML files so I'm not too concerned :D

    Check out the spreadsheet link, I've updated the values with real world values and used a modifier to artificially increase weight to work with the other game numbers, I've added some graphs to summarize it.

    The TLDR version though is before you could move 3000L of Iron Ore, with these changes you would only be able to move 100L, the multiplier might be a bit harsh I'll need to play a game after doing the mod and see how it goes. I might use Iron as middle ground baseline and aim for a 2x modifier which would make you able to move 500L.

    The biggest things hit though are the updates to Ore weights, as in Vanilla you can move 3000L of Pt as easy as you could move 3000L of Iron, with the update to Ore weights this is no longer the case as Pt has 2.7x more mass due to its density. So you will really need to think about what kind of industrious machines you'll need to make to move large qty's of this stuff.
     
  4. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    3,368
    So you're saying that (currently) since the weight doesn't matter, the volume you can move with a given amount of force doesn't matter. I suspect the reason all ore weighs the same is because it didn't matter. It wasn't a "gameplay" issue. Today, "gameplay" is the issue. If Keen changes the ore weights, that might break your mod. If you can live with that you have my support.

    I have no idea what a good balance would be, though...
     
  5. Stollie Apprentice Engineer

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    136
    Spot on!

    In Vanilla all the ore's weigh the same so small miners can easily transport a lot of it, the ore's themselves in comparison to storage space take up very little volume. So you can easily mine to abundance in a small miner and never worry about capacities, this leading to the question of "Why should I build a transporter for ore and ingots when it weights next to nothing?" This is especially true of Ore's in Vanilla since KSWH made them all weigh the same, what's weird is they made Ingots actually weigh the correct amounts as real life one's (almost).

    So yes, as a gameplay change, what the mod does is essentially: -

    1. Give ore's their proper real world weights like the Vanilla ingots.
    2. Multiply the Ore and the Ingot real world weights by a 'Game Fantasy' multiplier to make them more realistic to what a given craft size should be able to carry.

    This will be more noticeable in smaller miners, not so much in bigger ones. The idea being to make you think about transports, either wheeled or flying and not just ferrying little bits of ore with your mining ship.

    I'm not sure on the balance either which is why I made the spreadsheet and have asked for feedback :) Once I have enough I'll make the mod and then refine the values based on Steam feedback.

    Overall it should give Survival players a harder start when it comes to abundance and make you really think in the early game about how you will progress instead of just easily mining 30k of each Ore in nothing but a cockpit, 6 thrusters, a gyro, a battery and a drill and building something huge :D

    It will be more cost effective material and time wise to build some sort of transport to support your miner, on planets, hopefully a wheeled one. I'll have to look into the hauling potential of wheels when compared to flyers at some point.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2018
  6. Farindark Apprentice Engineer

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    418
    Greetings

    Not knocking your slant on this and especially your keenness on having a go at it, Go for it and good luck. This certainly isn't a mod I'd even consider using mostly just because of the current state of wheels and surely the current IMO weak atmospheric thrusters. Ships especially using these have to be mostly atmo thruster pin cushions already to handle the current ore/block weights well. Just my slant on it. :clang:
     
  7. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    3,368
    You will find that wheel suspensions and thrusters work differently. Engines (thrusters) have an override capability that lets you "set and forget" a particular power setting. Wheel suspensions always require a "foot on the pedal", otherwise they won't go, and there's no dampening (cause you have brakes). On the other hand, they don't use any power if you're stopped. Wheeled vehicles are inherently more efficient than flying vehicles, just slower. This is why we don't have flying cars. You couldn't afford to run one :)

    If ore weight is adjusted, the standard wheel suspensions will probably react accordingly. One should expect that wheel suspensions were designed to carry all the weight the chassis is expected to carry. Thus, if the weight of the ore makes your vehicle snap in two, you shouldn't expect the suspension to be able to move the weight. Other than that you should be able to go as fast as you can go.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2018
  8. Stollie Apprentice Engineer

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    136
    After playing around with a fair bit I found that Realistic inventory is actually fine, what always annoyed me was the limited Engineer space though on Realistic. So I just made a mod that increased that instead to 10x :p
     
  9. Malware Master Engineer

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    9,861
    That's what I've always said. 10x is too much for me as it nullifies the need for utility ships, but 1x is just a pain.


    The inventory multiplier should never have involved grid inventories, just the player.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  10. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    4,955
    You could achieve those results just by increasing the gravity on planets.

    You could also reduce ion and atmospheric efficiency in each planet's definitions; reduce hydrogen tank capacity; increase hydrogen thruster consumption.

    Increasing the mass of ore also affects the physics of ships in space. This may or may not be something you want to do. Just be aware that you're doing it.

    Simpler is better. So I would just increase the gravity. The upside is that you don't need a mod to do that. You can just make a backup copy of the vanilla planet defintions, change the vanilla ones, spawn your map, then overwrite the edited definitions with the backed up ones.

    Then you can upload the map to your server or put it on Workshop.
     
  11. Stollie Apprentice Engineer

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    136
    To be honest, after making the mod that sets player inventory to 3k instead of 400 in Realistic settings, I'm pretty happy the limitations, I've always played in 10x becuase of the Engineers space limit. You can actually mine very little on realistic before you fill up which is seriously making me consider building a bigger transport as a bigger miner would be unwieldy to use.

    Thank you for the suggestions though :)
     
  12. Dax23333 Junior Engineer

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    657
    Playing on 1x (with no helmet so the player character themselves is pretty useless) I have considered building a tunnel bore miner that ejects segments behind it as it mines. With 3x or 10x inventory this kind of mad idea would not even cross my mind, is far better.
     
  13. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    4,955

    I've found that large grid miners to be very unwieldy on most planets. Small grids seem to do a lot better; albeit they can't hold the sheer volumes. But when you're fighting with gravity, bottoming out isn't really a good option.
     
  14. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    3,368
    Depends on the kind of mining you're doing.
    [​IMG]
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  15. Stollie Apprentice Engineer

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    136
    Holy. Shit.

    What a beast!
     
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  16. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    4,955
    With all those pistons, it seems you're getting ready to mine from orbit.
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
  17. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    1,995
    Aren’t all those pistons part of a leveling mod?
     
  18. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

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    463
    If you're talking about LG mining ships, yes. They are more vulnerable to collisions and take much more costly damage.

    You can put symmetrical drills on a perfectly vertical piston/rotor to drill straight down just fine. For Ice, I prefer wheeled Zamboni style mining of lakes.

    @Stardriver907 I don't see much mining going on there. Just a lot of welding :p
     
  19. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    3,368
    Well... since you asked, see for yourself. You don't have to watch the whole thing. I haven't had the time to edit it. Sorry about the frame rate. It's how my stream looked, not how my game played.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

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    463
    Need a couple crew just standing around drinking coffee or something to round the scene out :p That framerate tho
     
  21. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    3,368
    It was built to be run by a crew. If I catch any of them drinking coffee, they better be one of my favorites ;)

    The frame rate of my session was smoother than the frame rate of the stream, which is what was recorded. Still, there was plenty of stutter to go around and the TMF was just one thing among many. I believe during this session I had Chilkoot Trail orbiting the planet on auto pilot, and I believe I had two shuttlecraft making their runs on auto pilot. The game version was at most 1.185 because when 1.186 came out all my pistons exploded the second the game loaded. The pistons also explode the second I try to paste the blueprint, This was when Keen announced the build contest where mods were allowed but I couldn't enter it because I couldn't get it to stop exploding, even if I replaced the pistons with new ones.
     
Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.