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Oxygen/pressurized filled enviroment , Pro's and Con's

Discussion in 'Survival' started by Harry_Caray, Feb 22, 2015.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Harry_Caray Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    14
    Let's just figure out the advantages and disadvantages of a oxygen filled pressurized environment first.

    Survival mode:

    Scenario:
    Your in a sealed hanger and you wanna build or fix a ship with oxygen available.

    Pros being in a oxygen/pressurized filled enviroment:
    -You can walk,weld and grind faster.
    -No need to recharge.
    -You can place blocks from a slightly longer range.
    -More volume or weight can be carried. (materials for building)
    -If game voice chat is available then a clearer non-walkie talkie voice is not there.
    -Plants can be grown to provide oxygen. These plants would act just like "solar panels".
    -Water can be harvested from the air and filled into the Water Tank/Collector. (New block needed)

    Water:
    -If the water tank/collector is available and full then plants could be watered automatically and kept alive. Plumbing like electrical wiring would not be needed.
    -Water could be used for plants only.
    -Water tank/collectors would fill up like a battery or in less time.

    Plants:
    -Plants require an "X" amount of time to grow.
    -Plants would fill an area with oxygen that is pressurized within an "x" amount of time.
    -All extra oxygen made would be filled into Oxygen Tanks. (new block needed)
    -Oxygen tanks when full could quickly fill an area with oxygen, when the haul is sealed.
    -Just like "solar panels" which provide an "x" amount of power, plants would provide for an "x" amount of oxygen for people depending on the need.

    Food can be grown.

    Food:
    -Food could be taken as maybe a plus only and not a need. If you eat then when you put a helmet on your oxygen or energy won't deplete as fast for an "x" amount of time.


    Cons being in an oxygen filled environment:
    -Some of your H.U.D. info disappears. Some would perhaps stay because your wearing a computer screen on your wrist.
    -You are more susceptible to damage, with out your space suit protecting you.
    -If the haul is breached from an attack or mistake, then anyone in that sealed area would be sucked out or die from being slammed against a wall from the suction.

    Haul breach and oxygen is sucked out:
    -You would start to lose health. If gravity is available then you could run to the nearest airlock and save yourself before your health is gone.

    -Plants providing oxygen would be susceptible to dying if pressure is lost over an "x" amount of time. -If plants die, they must be regrown.
    -A new block would be needed (Oxygen Valve) to disperse oxygen. One block needed for each pressurized room.


    So that's what i think the pros and cons would be for an oxygen/pressurized environment. I think it would be a lot of fun and it could all be enabled from that dedicated server settings if they wish.

    New blocks needed for oxygen/pressurized environment:
    -Plants
    -Water Tank/Collector
    -Oxygen Tank (if oxygen tank is damaged it could blow up and kill anyone within an "X" area from it.)
    -Oxygen Valve

    These are just my suggestions to the developers and community. Adding the extra blocks would be fun and incourage people to work together to build enclosed environments,hangers,etc. Of course a simpler version of these above blocks would be just to have:

    Two blocks only:
    -Plant block
    -Water Tank/Collector, Oxygen Tank, Oxygen Dispensor....all in one block
    or...
    And have the option to use fuel (Uranium) to provide oxygen instead of the plant block.

    Thank you
     
  2. EngenheiroDoEspaço Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    66
    When I was exploring a cargo ship on its insides (a Military Transporter), I felt some kind of atmosphere/oxygen was really needed. When you're exploring the ship, your energy goes really fast (too much grinding to get where you need), even when walking. It was really tedious to go back to my fighter ship every 2-3 minutes to recover energy lost in grinding (even when you reach the enemy ship's cockpit, things are still tiresome).

    Of course, I was exploring the ship in the old fashioned honest-to-goodness way - grinding only doors, not walls. The only wall I had grinded was to find the booby trap (after a second try searching for it). And even so it was very amazing, I felt like a real pirate.

    So, IMHO only oxygen and sealed doors for now.
     
  3. xxreaperxx13 Trainee Engineer

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    3
    why not make it so you can drink but you can also fill up suit at respupply station
     
  4. Hate Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    37
    Great suggestions, but water can be extracted from asteroids (and/or planet in future?) as ice , then melted
    So for plants, they can be in glass box, that makes more sense in space. But you can put on the one side oxygen tanks, as ammo in turrets, and then they will be filled with oxygen, after that you can get or transfer oxygen tanks into oxygen generator, which is generating oxygen in the room.
     
  5. merak Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    149
    Pros being in a oxygen/pressurized filled enviroment:
    -More volume or weight can be carried. (materials for building)


    i question about this Why? as it stands i can carry at 3x 1200 kg at 1x it should be around 400kg (iirc) with space suit on i cant possible carry this without it. Even if i am in space (nope i have NO idea how this work in space :D if i have no gravity)
     
  6. Vermillion Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,131
    Everything you said is scientifically wrong.

    - You cannot walk, weld or grind faster in a pressurized room over a vaccuum. You've just added air resistance and additional weight by applying air to the outside. Grinding and Welding would be slower, consume more power and welding in a pressurized interior would risk sealing air bubbles inside welds. Once exposed to space, the welds would explode. Power consumption would increase dramatically as the welder now has to pass through air instead of nothing and deal with temperature loss via convection.
    - You will always need to recharge if you're using tools. Power doesn't come appear out of nowhere.
    - Being able to place blocks at a longer distance makes no sense.
    - The same volume can be carried. Air doesn't magically increase the size of your backpack. You would in fact be able to carry less as now you have to support the additional weight of air and deal with air resistance as you move.
    - Plants DO NOT make air. Plants scrub the carbon from CO2 leaving just O2. Therefore, they need an atmosphere to purify or else they'll just die/explode in a vacuum.
    - Air is O2. Not H2O. You cannot extract water from pure air.

    If you had no suit on and there was a hull breach, the negative pressure of space would tear all the air out of a room in less than 10 seconds. You would lose conciousness in 7 seconds and be dead 15-30 seconds later, following your lungs being forcibly deflated, surface blood vessels bursting, sharting yourself violently, eardrums bursting and eyeballs rupturing and that's all within the first 10 seconds with some air still in the room.
     
  7. Malware Master Engineer

    Messages:
    9,862
    http://brokensecrets.com/2011/02/11/people-dont-explode-in-space/
     
  8. volston Trainee Engineer

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    15
    If atmosphere were to be added to the game the the only benefit could be that your energy would decrease a little slower as even when you are standing on a station not moving you use about .5% energy per min therefore you could remove that expense but that would be fairly negligible. The issues it would cause with the ships are that any hole in your hull would kill all unhelmed players in the room. also if you have oxygen then you need to have fire caused by warheads, missiles, and parts grinding together as this produces sparks.
    another bonus could be that currently if you are inside a ship and you turn on the jet pack with the dampers on you will slam into the wall possibly being killed. so you could have it not do that.
     
  9. Vermillion Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,131
    Not relevant. At all...
    I never said people would explode in a vaccuum. Plants would, as would soft parts of the human body that cannot withstand the direct force of a vaccuum.
    That article is also wrong as it claims space is cold. Space is not cold, it's a vaccuum: An absence of matter. Temperature is the rate of vibration of molecules. Molecules that aren't there in a vaccuum. The only way to lose heat in a vaccuum is Radiation (Energy released as light), which all matter does. (Note: Infrared/Thermal imaging)
     
  10. Hate Trainee Engineer

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    37
    but space is not 100% of vacuum
     
  11. Vermillion Senior Engineer

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    2,131
    True.
    But anywhere that is not a vacuum is either full of matter and by extension, Not Space. Unless you're referring to the 100 or so hydrogen atoms per cubic meter. Which are just atoms, not molecules and incapable of holding temperature (Vibrating).
    Even if those atoms could hold temperature, on contact with any suitably warm surface, they'd be heated instantly via conduction with no effect whatsoever on the target surface. It would be like dropping a hot stone into the Atlantic ocean and expecting it to warm it up.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 24, 2015
  12. chromenewt Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    29
    I'm going to wade in by bringing your attention to one thing so far in SE (with a multi-part explanation). Things which are true in SE:
    1. "Energy" is needed to survive
    2. Energy can only be replenished from seats and medical bays
    3. Seats and medical bays are powered by reactors and batteries
    4. Reactors are powered by uranium
    5. Batteries are powered by Reactors or solar panels
    What can we deduce from this?

    Astronauts use uranium and sunlight instead of breath oxygen? Astronauts in SE are photosynthesising robots (apparently)!

    Now, one very compelling argument for pressurised environments in survival is the basic human needs to consume food and water and to excrete the waste products. Doing that in a sealed suit isn't possible (unless we're going the root of IV drips and catheters in the suit).

    It's survival mode. I think without this aspect it's missing a very compelling aspect which means that, should Keen decide to in future, means that SE could actually compete with and be much better than Elite: Dangerous and Star Citizen. Proper survival in space, where you can create everything from scratch to your own spec, and your success isn't based on twitch reflexes but your ability to create stellar craft (pardon the pun).

    I love the idea of pressurised bases, and a well placed surprise attack depressurises the mess hall while everyone is eating so your team can swoop in and salvage. I'm an ex Planetside player, and SE has this amazing potential for scale and realism to capitalise on the non-twitch players for a similar, more cerebral experience.

    So in short, you should need pressurised environments because you *need* to take off your suit to eat, drink and excrete, not because it gives any benefits or penalties.

    Oh, and by the way, I'm of the camp that if you're going to strive for realism then at least please have the option for realistic sounds. Pressurised environments should allow realistic hearing and the transference of sound (natural benefit of an extra sense being able to detect if anything is wrong by the knocking/creaking/gunfire/explosions etc) and the vacuum of space should be claustrophobic. As an aside, I use MyNoise.net to simulate this until Keen decide to do something about it. I have the following running in browser tabs:

    http://mynoise.net/NoiseMachines/inUteroSoundGenerator.php (just the breathing slider)
    http://mynoise.net/NoiseMachines/shortwaveRadioTunerNoiseGenerator.php (Click on the Animate button to randomise and vary the ghost transmissions)

    I say that pressurised environments have all of the pros, because to omit it would be like buying a car with only one gear and no doors.
     
  13. Aurenian Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    373
    There are only 2 in game reasons I can think of to have atmosphere.

    The first is hard core survival mode where you get fatigued by wearing a space suit all the time and have to get into an oxygen environment to recover, eat & Drink. At that point you are basically building a survival expansion as a stand-alone game.

    The second is if we could take on crew and passengers. If we had civilian passengers to transport, then building a safe and comfortable environment for them would be an important function of a ship.

    So we're looking at either a major survival or NPC update before atmosphere actually has a function.
     
  14. Malware Master Engineer

    Messages:
    9,862
    "Perhaps most famously, in Total Recall Arnold Schwarzenegger played an increasingly bug-eyed Quaid when he ventured unprotected onto the airless plains of Mars. Grotesque decompression deaths are a staple of the genre.These displays of spectacular tissue damage might seem like reasonable speculation, yet we’ve known otherwise for centuries. As early as 1660, the scientist Robert Boyle was exposing animals to vacuum without detonating them. Unconsciousness came quickly to the experimental subjects, but fresh air would quickly revive most subjects if administered before several minutes had passed. "

    You were talking about ruptured eyes :) This was just the first article I found, too lazy to search for a better one. No matter, you're probably right :)
     
  15. Vermillion Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,131
    [​IMG]
    Not as ridiculous as it sounds...
     
  16. Malware Master Engineer

    Messages:
    9,862
    By the way, the article claims space is "cold" yes, but "Don’t worry about the cold, either – space is chilly, yes, but the lack of air will make the transfer of heat from your body quite slow."

    Which is what you said, just simplified for the layman.


    And heat up "with no effect what so ever?" Doesn't that violate the law of thermodynamics? I mean, agreed, a comparable discussion would be whether a spaceship sling-shotting around Jupiter would affect the planet's orbit: The answer is actually yes, but we don't have any tool capable of measuring it, the effect is so small. So I guess for all intents and purposes, you're right.


    For the record, I am not attacking you, just discussing. I am far, far from an expert, even far from knowledgeable, I have just read stuff :)

    On-topic: I'll repeat here what I keep saying in the other similar threads: All I need with regards to pressurization etc. is that I can work with a far lower recharge rate, NO recharge if I don't use tools.
     
  17. willow512 Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    2
    Reasons for taking off spacesuits should be gameplay reasons matched to real life reasons..

    Primarily I'd say it causes immersion. And I think everyone wants it because of this. In multiplayer taking off spacesuits and sitting at a table. Would create a feeing of depth. It allows a player to connect to his character more.

    Gameplay wise I think you should consider different suits for different reasons. You need atmospheres to change suits.

    A heavy builder suit which is 2x2x2 tiles big, has much more energy, slower movement but welds and grinds faster. Also a grappler to maneuver small objects like small ships, or broken off blocks around.

    A mining suit. A somewhat bulletproof and faster military suit. A jumpsuit. And some novelty suits like a tux, a spacebum suit, all with highlight color changeable of course.
     
  18. chromenewt Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    29
    This! I'm a big fan of choice and customisation (although tuxes I'm not sure about ;) ). A bit of immersible flavour will only add to the game, not take anything away.
     
  19. Theneoseraphim Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    1
    I am not sure if anyone has suggested this by why not have the visor of the helmet slide up like they do in the current NASA tech? That way you don't have to remove the helmet and if there is a rapid depressurization it would have a fail safe that locks it back in place automatically. Best of both worlds. You can eat, breathe, space kiss, and you can not die from not having you helmet.
     
  20. Hate Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    37
    why the hell we need ships then?
     
  21. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,368
    I don't think there's an argument here. Pressurized environments should be an option in the game. Many would prefer it for immersion purposes. Those who feel it detracts from gameplay could simply toggle it off. Everyone gets what they want.
     
  22. EngenheiroDoEspaço Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    66
    To reach other ships. Once you do so, hijack an enemy ship with an agile, bulletproof and ammo holder suit - but with less inventory, to save weight. Makes inside combat much more dynamic. The other suits (mining, heavy builder) are a sort of excess. Ships can do these functions.
     
  23. Flubbles Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    33
    Not so:
    This ignores the fact that the pressurised suits, that you wear to protect against the harsh vacuum, are exceedingly cumbersome and make dexterous/nimble movement very difficult. The pressure difference makes the entire suit want to blow up and expand, and while this is mostly counteracted by clever design, it is very unlikely to give you full mobility.

    While the backpack would indeed not increase because of your backpack, the backpack also wouldn't need to carry a large life-support system that takes up precious inventory space when out in the vacuum.
     
  24. Andeerz Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    172
    Atmosphere (or pressure) could be way more interesting than that in terms of function. What comes to mind other than the silly needs of biological organisms are things like:

    Pressurization of of cargo containers (or, better yet, fuel tanks, or sealed, hollow structures built block by block by the player) in order to contain and even move liquid oxygen or hydrogen or other liquids or gases. This same pressure can also lend itself to factoring into the structural rigidity of these containers like they do in real-life spacecraft provided structural integrity makes it into the game. The pressure could also be exploited for certain kinds of propulsion.

    Or pressurization of (sealed) mining boreholes as in certain proposed asteroid mining operations involving the vaporization and harvesting water and/or other volatiles from asteroid regolith. Other proposed mining techniques also involve using small amounts of pressure in sealed asteroid cavities created during excavation to help move chunks of rock into collectors, instead of relying on moving mechanical parts (like conveyors). This same pressure can also play a part in potential catastrophic (and !!!FUN!!!) blowouts or even fracturing of the asteroid itself again provided things like structural integrity make it into the game, and also heat.

    There are a LOT of things that can be done with pressure and atmosphere other than what has been mentioned here. Also, with regard to water being discussed here, it will be among the most if not THE most valuable commodity in space not for biological purposes, but for propulsion, energy, and stuff like that. Don't forget that when discussing possible functions of things for gameplay!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 25, 2015
  25. Andeerz Apprentice Engineer

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    172
    Also, with regard to space suits I highly recommend this webpage: http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/spacesuits.php

    The rest of the website is awesome for information about just about anything having to do with sci-fi, space, and plausible future scenarios. It also dispels a lot of commonly held misconceptions about how being in space works.
     
  26. InfiniteDice Trainee Engineer

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    49
    Like it or not the suits need to be nerfed. Let's talk about why any human would not like to be in a suit for more than possibly 2 hours.

    - discomfort
    - claustrophobia
    - malfunctions with suit (should happen)
    - suit recharge time - must take off to recharge and repair - charging might be 1 hour so other suits could be built and changed into while old ones charge.
    - lack of visibility... disable 3rd person when in the suit? or have a helmet overlay in the 1st person view that fogs up or limits visibility in some way.
    - Suit thrust limit reduced a lot! or adjustable with exponential fuel/energy loss. Suits going faster than ships is silly, if you lose your ship... it's gone jeeze. Invest in a remote control or something.
    - while in gravity the suit is too heavy to use! make the fly walk speed very restricted as the suit mass comes into play.

    These might be hardcore sounding but like everything else they implement it could be an option...

    Hardcore Oxygen/Suit mode or something fancy.
     
  27. InfiniteDice Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    49
    And on the topic of water... did you know it takes 300 times the mass of iron ore used (in water) to produce an equal mass of steel?

    1,000kg of Steel requires 300,000L == 300,000kg of water (some could be recycled but for cooling we take rivers for granted here on the planet earth). There are of course other resources needed like coal and limestone. See any coal in space lately?

    Perhaps when SE's dwarf planets come along... the only real place refining could be accomplished would be there. Thus giving them value. Unless we stick to advancements in technology that appear magical in nature... :)

    So SE is missing the most required resource of all... Space Ice.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 26, 2015
  28. KissSh0t Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,773
    Oxygen / Pressurization should also be apart of the realistic sound model~

    In presurized area, you can hear sound, in space, you can only hear the sound of inside your suit.. and if inside a small ship cockpit, the sound the internals of your ship makes.. no sound from outside the ship.

    When going onto a planet you will hear sound~
     
  29. Echillion Senior Engineer

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    1,334
    Cooling of iron into steel is done by exposure to space also cuts down on carbon in the iron which strengthens the steel produced?
     
  30. fusurugi Junior Engineer

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    521
    Vacuum is a heat insulator, you'd have to shade it from the sun and cooling down still takes ages.

    What about noise generators against the madening, deafening silence?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 20, 2015
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