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Petition to revert to old windows!!! (Space Engineers)

Discussion in 'General' started by terry369, Feb 20, 2016.

?

Revert to old windows?

  1. Yes revert them now!!!

    77.7%
  2. I don't care

    12.7%
  3. No I like scratches on my wondows

    4.5%
  4. No I like scratches on my windows

    5.0%
Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. GrindyGears Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,787
    Well from a point of view of someone who doesn't care much what my windows look like, I'll say this: while it may seem strange that a brand new window is scratched, given our manufacturing method, our way of assembling and transporting, it's possible it could be slightly damaged. Maybe not to the extent they are, but atleast a bit.

    I've seen glass so dirty on equipment you can't see out of it, the solution is often to just open the window and not bother with it. In space that isn't really an option...

    I think the best way to get rid of the repeating scratches would be do do something similar to the armor textures, tiled across however big the pattern is, it's unlikely your glass will be large enough to easily see the repeats.
     
    • Like Like x 1
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  2. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    4,845
    Why put scratches in it? It does nothing to enhance gameplay. You build a window to see OUT of, not to view in awe the totally wonderful custom texture someone spent a lot of hours developing. Again, it calls into question the approval and tasking process.

    Fireflies
    Jihad dogs
    Windows you can't see out of.

    Where are these ideas coming from and who is pushing dev time to incorporate them?

    If the graphics team wants to do something useful, try reducing the number of triangles in each block while still making them aesthetically pleasing. That would help out performance, which is the most important aspect right now.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
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  3. Brix Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    45
    What i don't get is everyone acts like the glass should scratched. Ok i get this opinion i really do it makes some sense, but it's the wrong way to go about it.

    What we are seeing in the glass effect is not the actual glass being scratched, but the plastic covering on the outside of the glass, this is what gets scratched up not the actual layer of glass itself. To damage glass it needs to be struck with something harder than it is, and unless we are talking about bending the glass until it breaks(impacts, or expansion and contraction) the core of the glass block would not look like it does.

    See when glass is made, especially safety glass(tempered) it is layered and put under both tension and compression, annealed glass which is the basic glass we see the shatter into shards is below 9000psi compression. Toughened starts at 10,000psi and safety at like 17,000 iirc. It also breaks into small cubes when broken unlike annealed.

    So more than likely the glass in SE is of the safety standard, not to mention the fact that it uses bulletproof glass as it's main component with the girders as the sash(sides, top, and bottom). So the toughness of the glass should be through the roof. You would not have these deep scores in the glass itself, yes you could scuff up the outer layer very easily, you can do this with anything harder than the ecoating(tint/safety film on either side of the pane) like sand or gravel, but the scratching would be superficial, it would appear more foggy than cut into, the model that they have drawn up is unrealistic, it shows window damage that just isn't going to happen as the plane would either crack or shatter before being scratched by any ore that we would run into in SE to date.

    The only reason i bring any of this up is because i used to work with glass every single day, and unless you drag something across glass that is harder than it is you can't scratch the glass itself, as long as it is cured properly and of the correct hardness, the grade of glass that would be used in a space ship would be very resilient to this kind of damage and is more than likely a multilayer compressed and sealed unit, not the spaced panes that you would see in your home. The more layers the stronger it becomes, and the change of a small impact to shatter multiple layers goes down and down. Even standard annealed panes, with ecoat can take a 15lbs sledgehammer to about 4-6 panes thick. The first few layers break and the further back you go the low it allows the planes to bend and take the grunt of the hit. A 4x8ft sheet of glass (annealed) and usually be bent from corner to corner about 6-10in before the center of the plane would let go and break.

    Tldr: glass scratching is the coating of the glass not the actual glass in this scenario. The glass would be more cloudy than scored, and deep cuts like the ones we have are non realistic.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Informative Informative x 2
  4. jonnytaco Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    228
    Technically bullet proof glass uses the shattering of the first layer to increase the surface area of that layer on the polycarbonate backing which distributes the load to a much larger area on the next layer of glass behind it. Not sure on the exact hardness of modern bullet proof glass layers (not the poly carbonate sandwiched between them) but chances are it's very hard which will cause the bullet or projectile to begin to disintegrate when it comes in contact with the first layer further increasing the rate at which energy is distributed outwards from the impact point.

    It's actually very similar to sapi plates in application except you can see through it and it's heavy as all hell.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  5. Harrekin Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,077
    What I don't get is everyone arguing against the idea of allowing the player to choose the texture on a "block per block" basis...

    Don't like scratches?

    Just don't select it.

    Don't like window tint?

    Don't select it.

    Etc.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. Brix Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    45

    You are correct. Older bullet resistant glass was multiple layers of annealed glass inches thick, newer glass is thinner and stronger. Most of the newest safety glass is 1/4in to 3/8in thick and is stronger than ever. Hell just the baking process is better. Adding poly materials into the mix adds to this and the use of thicker layers of poly on new glass actually catches the projectiles like a bullet proof vest.

    Still wouldn't scratch like that tho lmao!!
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. jonnytaco Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    228
    no way would it scratch like that :). Generally speaking the harder something is the less likely it is to scratch and early 21st century bullet proof glass is hella hard. I know this example is not glass but my buddy has a 550+ Brinell tungsten wedding ring that him and his wife tried to scratch, tried is the key word here. Machine steel is simply much softer and he did not have any 600+ Brinell military grade vehicle plate steel laying around.
     
  8. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    4,845
    Well, that would make it a non-issue.

    However, that would require Keen to put in a new set of selectable functions into a menu somewhere and create a dependency as well as two textures for every instance of glass.

    The simplest solution and the most immediate is to revert the glass back to the old texture.

    Perhaps they aren't arguing with the ability to select, but the fact that the feature doesn't exist at the moment so it's not a viable solution to the immediate problem.

    It's kind of like telling a starving kid to make a sandwich.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  9. Echillion Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,334
    I couldn't agree with more Ronin1973
     
  10. Harrekin Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,077
    Eh, they do it in Medieval Engineers...

    People being "forced" to use scratched windows being compared to a child starving?

    Are you for real?
     
  11. Levits Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,122
    Yeah... I'm not often too cynical on the Developers decisions but even I have to acknowledge that there is a problem with the visual aesthetics of the windows "new" look. Cyberhounds are one thing, those (despite their initial introduction) can be worked with and possibly added to as a feature. The windows new/current appearance on the other hand is another matter entirely. Unless the current look is a test to further develop windows taking damage, they should not appear with scratch's and especially not with "DIRT" on them.

    I had to stop building halfway through my reworking of the Chronos to take a closer look at the windows and to tell the truth I laughed before realizing that it wasn't a joke... I've got friends and families that go Mud-riding and their windows are less filthy and less scratched up than the windows on my ship <and It's suppose to be in space? Unless I went flying through a cloud of rocks and dust, I just don't see how my windows would have ended up looking as they do.

    I don't want to blast on the one who did the model and put the time and effort into the new appearance of the windows but I have to say, from a personal perspective, that they need to work on it a little more.

    I suppose they are going to work on the texture/appearance of the actual armor blocks as well because my windows look beat to hell and back but the armor surrounding it is in pristine condition.

    Additionally, I would not be against having a feature added that allows for various textures/appearances of a few blocks. It would be nice to have the option to choose between 2-way windows, 1-way windows, and the dusty/dirt-scratched windows. As for the UI design, simply have it as a drag/drop system where you click on the window you want and then have the window "variants" show up so that you can select the type of appearance that you want.
     
  12. FlakMagnet Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,551
    My only real issue with windows as they are now is that the scratch effect is overdone, and it really stands out. That means it is REALLY obviously a false effect a every window has been scratched in exactly the same way.

    It's a game...it's not real ... but you want to be able to suspend disbelief and pretend you are looking out of a real window into the depths of space, and whether glass is scratched, clear, tinte d or whatever, it should be subtle enough not to dominate the view. A random less repetetive pattern would not stand out so much...as would a more subtle toned down effect. As no other blocks are textured to show dirt, scratches or wear and tear in the same way...it looks false.

    I never really noticed glass textures before, as I was more attracted to the stuff on the other side of the window. I want that back please.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  13. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    4,845
    Hyperbole. It's not a literal statement.
     
  14. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    4,845
    I've never accidentally killed myself by running into glass. I don't know of anyone complaining about that problem. So at the end of the day, it's a solution to a problem that really doesn't affect anyone in a meaningful way. So it's really a waste of dev time on a whimsical change by the CEO who isn't a regular player of his own game.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. Aracus Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,931
    Funny thing is, Marek still thought it was too transparent and hard to tell glass from non-glass when looking from inside easy start earthlike and up at the sky daytime.. Kept bumping it like a bumblebee/housefly trying to find his premade hole, not finding it, he made a new hole....
     
  16. Bruce LeedleLeedleLeedleLee Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    813
    Man, I know prague can be dirty at times, but even marek should notice that glass is supposed to be clear and not look like 20 years next to a coal power plant (especially in the space age). maybe they should implement this into his build for his future streams, could solve some headache and deleted windows ^^
    [​IMG]
     
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  17. Brix Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    45
    I wish too see what the windows look like in the keen office
     
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  18. zDeveloper10 Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    742
    I think the windows should not start initially very scratched. imo they should either wear over time or start fresh.
    after all, the reactors don't occasionally leak, nor does armor get built with holes, displays scratched or worn out,etc. those might be great if someone wanted to go for an old worn out ship athletic but if everything is new(somewhat plastic-like for now,but that's a different issue) except those and nothing you can do will fix it,it is a bit weird.
     
  19. Harrekin Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,077
    Is that like an Olympics for Space Ships?
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  20. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,185
    I only paid $6. You guys got in late.

    I use the "Kolt Inspired HUD" mod. Crystal clear.

    Neither has left earth orbit. We don't know what Voyager looked like by the time it reached the outer planets, but I'll bet it didn't look brand new. Probably looks worse now.

    I think that was the real point of the texture. I always get the first window backwards (tint-side in).

    My understanding is that glass as we know it will not be used in spacecraft. I understand fighter aircraft today have plastic windshields. All spacecraft to date have not had much in the way of windows because we worry about them breaking. Since large pane windows seems to be a thing by 2077 it's likely they're not made the same way glass is commonly made now.

    The notion that glass fresh from the assembler should be crystal clear is not reasonable. The glass you made is (intended to be) the glass your ship will have forever, so it will sport a weathered texture even though it's "brand new". If the game was able to weather blocks over time it would be reasonable to expect newly built items to look... new. We don't have that and we're not likely to get it, so all "new" blocks will be weathered. This is Keen's choice for their game. The "totally clear" and "deeply tinted" alternatives are already in the workshop for those that are willing to take the two to three seconds to subscribe (time includes deciding which one you want). Yes, an update might break the mods. An update changed the standard glass so what's the difference? An update is always trouble for something/someone. Standard blocks are not immune. My advice would be use the mod because it's likely Keen will change the standard glass again, and if you don't like the current one...

    Because mods exist, I voted don't care.
     
  21. Motavar Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    20
    Like everyone else said..

    Add another block type for clear glass and call it done.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  22. RageMasterUK Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    201
    I think the windows should only look scratched when they are less than 100% condition. A perfect 100% health windowpane should be like it was before the update.
    The scratches would indicate which panels have taken minor damage, and if players want to see perfect clear they should be able to get out and put that 1% weld on it to clear it up.
     
  23. Aracus Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,931
    That's basically equivalent to "Because there are mods, the core game does not matter" and that is a HORRIBLE attitude.... very dangerous way to look at the continued development of this game...
     
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  24. Wizlawz Master Engineer

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    3,028
    have you not ever seen a ship "age" in EVE? rust spots or similar etc?
     
  25. DDP-158 Master Engineer

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    3,748
    That would require you to be zoomed in on top of it which most people aren't. My preference was to keep the ship at about a quarter inch size so I can see the bad guys.
    I think what you are referring to is battle damage when the ship goes into hull damage. The models don't change otherwise.
     
  26. Spets Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,214
    they should use the new windows texture as an additional stage, like slightly damaged or something
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  27. Bruce LeedleLeedleLeedleLee Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    813
    i don't like the idea od the scratched textures as damage indicators, after some time your bridge will look like a chessfield. i wouldn't have problems with more local damages
     
  28. Wizlawz Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,028
    no, not battle damage IE: Iteron just hauling no battle.
     
  29. DDP-158 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,748
    You've never made an interon of doom. Bit that's still beside the point. Ships don't rust with age in eve. The only time a model changes is when you put weapons on it or it goes to hull.

    Ps iteron may be a hauler but it's still a target. They burn like everything else.
     
  30. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,185
    That's not even remotely true, and that is not my attitude. If I said your attitude was "screw everyone. Keen should just put in the game what I want" would you agree with that characterization? I hope not.

    I have been very clear about what and why Keen puts things in the game, and my position on mods. For the record:

    The game belongs to Keen Software House. As such, it is their decision what is appropriate for the core game. That decision does not rest with people that have bought the game. That means if Keen likes the windows, that's pretty much the end of it.

    "Mods", by definition, are modifications to the core game. The exist solely because they are not provided by the core game, which is Keen's game. Since mods need the core game in order to exist, the core game matters a great deal.

    Some people do not like the direction Keen is taking the game. Some of those people have modding skills, and they provide the "corrections" they feel are needed. If you prefer the modder's direction over Keen's, you download and use the mods. That is a much easier and far more sane approach than trying to coerce the developer into accepting your vision over theirs because you don't like it. Talk about a horrible and dangerous attitude.

    The things I like about Space Engineers far outnumber the things I don't. Some of the things I don't like, such as gravity generators and artificial mass, I just choose not to use. A big one for me is block variety, which I fix by downloading mods. The current windows still work for me so I use them. If they were not working for me I would download and use modded windows. That's far easier than blowing my stack and demanding Keen restore the windows I liked. I was ok with the old windows. I was ok with the DX9 windows. If they do something else with the windows, I'll probably be ok with the "new" ones. If not, I'll use a mod. Therefore, because mods exist, I voted don't care.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.