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Player-made Tradestations on DS?

Discussion in 'Multiplayer' started by rottielover, Dec 29, 2019.

  1. rottielover Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    485
    It's been a while since I was playing Space Engineer's regularly, but now that the economy update is out I've gone back full bore, even picked up all the DLC.

    I'm playing on a couple of DS's and I wanted to setup my own player-built stations to trade with other players.

    I have not been able to locate a guide or youtube video that has a step by step on how to create such a thing...

    Let me clarify a little, I know how to build the station and setup things like the air handling systems and airlocks and such, and I know that doors and other blocks have special settings to allow such things...

    What I am lacking is the checklist of things I need to make sure I do...

    So Let me try and see where I'm going wrong:

    Setup an airlock and set the doors settings so that all can use them.

    Setup a Store block so that it has access to the conveyor system (or at least a cargo container) - again adjust it's settings... how do I specify what I want to sell and how do I set the prices? How do I sell ships that I built already? (IE I want to build and sell ships)

    Setup an ATM (This is easy part stick one on a wall and adjust it's settings)

    Can I setup my own vending machine? Assume I just have to give it Conveyor access?

    Trade Connectors - I see the special settings on these, do I just need to enable for trading?

    If I want to sell gases like Oxygen and Hydrogen do I just need tanks on the Conveyor system?

    I know I need the safe zone block and to go to an NPC station to buy the zone chips, but how do I stockpile the chips for the zone block?

    After all that, how do I re-stock my supplies after players come and buy them? Just have a special connector for me to use only??
     
  2. Soup Toaster Apprentice Engineer

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    196
    It would be nice to see someone write up a tutorial on this. Seems like a very interesting part of emergent online gameplay.
     
  3. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    3,133
    There were a lot of unforseen... opportunities... and unintended consequences that became apparent after the economy update. It seems to me that there was a great deal of work put into the shield generator safe zone and no similar effort put into who gets to trade what and how.

    @rottielover you can't sell your ships through a store block. I'm thinking the push was to create a system whereby a player could buy the stuff they needed to build a ship of their own without having to go through the process of finding ore and turning it into parts. You can buy Keen ships only. In fact, the whole economy seems to be geared more towards circumventing the mine/refine/build process (because some players find that boring and/or tedious) and less geared toward you surviving and thriving by selling stuff you mined or made. So, now you can either get what you want by taking on contracts and earning space credits so you can just buy stuff, or you can mine ore and make your own stuff that you mostly can't sell or trade via the system.

    The system works quite well for what it was designed for, but the economic model that they copied from other video games works best when buying is the only way to get stuff. With SE the point is that you make what you need from raw materials. By the time you have figured out how to make a ship/rover that can get you to a trade station, you pretty much can ignore trading. It turns out that all those people that were begging for an "economy" were actually looking for a chance to sell stuff, not buy stuff, and selling your blueprinted items was the goal. However, building a trade station with the intent of selling things you mined or made turns out to be as tedious as mining/refining/building, and it is currently not possible to sell blueprints through the system.

    Economic systems are based upon supply and demand. Keen's system only creates supply. @Soup Toaster there may be some videos on YT that were made after the update dropped, but at that time most people were zeroing in on the safe zone and how they could weaponize it. The Store Block didn't get much attention and now few people seem to be interested. So, like many Keen items, a definitive tutorial is not likely as Keen does not seem to be interested in explaining how their stuff works (someone please explain to me what is actually happening when I move those last two sliders in the piston terminal. They both are about the lateral axis, but the "tip" suggests they both do the same thing, yet they clearly don't. Some points get lost in translation) and "learn by fail" is how things get figured out.
     
  4. rottielover Apprentice Engineer

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    485
    Thank you for the reply's Since posting I've done a bit of testing in a creative world, and these blocks (store and contracts) don't function in the way that I think most players think they should/would on a multiplayer server. As Stardriver says, you cannot sell your own ships (though instead of just the blueprint I was thinking that you would have to actually build the ship that would be stored into the Store Block system (perhaps a system where you tell it the named grid inside the safe zone field) and therefore be sold as the ship + contents of it's storage etc.

    Unfortunately the only thing you can currently do is to setup how much you want to see ore's ingot's and component's for, and to even set that up the system forces you to pay space bucks to create the listing. So in a multiplayer environment the store block and having your own trading station is 100% useless. It would cost you more to setup the shop, buy the zone chips, and then pay for your listings than you could ever possibly make back and you would neve break even much less make any profit.

    Economy needs way more serious thought put into it if they want it used for multiplayer.

    This testing has got to be the most serious disappointment I've had with SE in a while.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    3,133
    Don't be disappointed. This is not a failure by any means. In terms of setting up a framework they got it right. KSH called it an "Economy" update, but the guy who put it together refused to call it an "economy." In fact, during the update stream I believe the first words out of the guy's mouth were, "It's not an economy." He gave Keen what they asked for, which was "money" that players could give to each other, and "stores" where players could buy resources, components and any ship available in the game. Also, because there was an issue on servers, they threw in a shield to protect your stuff when you went offline.

    They also made it possible for players to trade directly. When you are in proximity with another player, a special channel allows you to negotiate a trade between your respective personal inventories.

    This is all good stuff. In a single player game it's probably enough. In fact, this "economy" resembles what you would find in a single player game where all the trading is done with NPCs. However, in the entire history of video games I'll bet you won't find a single game designer that took or stayed awake during an economics class. "Currency" is what you get for doing stuff for somebody (or you just steal it from someone), everything has a price that's set by the game, and all the merchants are NPCs. This is where the problem lies.

    How does one determine the value of a ship you built? You know for a FACT that if someone else built a ship exactly like yours right down to the last pixel, your ship should be worth more. Amiright? The only currency is Space Credits. How many SCs are your ship worth? What's a SC worth? Why? In the real world, all these kinds of questions have answers. Everyone know what a dollar is, and anyone anywhere can find out how much one is worth, and decide what that means for them, personally. In the real world there is no standard currency that everyone has to abide by. All wealth is relative. This is a difficult concept for engineering-type video game designers. Economies aren't designed. They're formed.

    The solutions, in my opinion, are

    • Get rid of the Space Credits. Let factions create their own currency
    • Set up the stores so that players can "buy" access to a blueprint that is otherwise Private.
    • No more magic instant ship delivery. Ships you buy either have to be built from a projection or delivered by the owner/builder.
    I believe these things might spark an economic system that players might actually want to participate in. In theory, every server would develop a unique economy. I think that would be interesting.
     
  6. rottielover Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    485
    I get what your saying, anything has a value of what someone else would be willing to give up for it (trade). Like when US $ was on the gold standard yadda yadda...

    Each faction gets it's own currency, interesting, would the ATM blocks function for exchange rates?
    I think you might be right with the buy the blueprint thing...
    THe only problem there is on multiplayer two players may never be from the same or close timezones. Has to be a way to deliver the already built item. I was thinking bring built ship(s) to insided the safezone where they would be stored for sale, and produced on demand like the Keen ones. I saw a thread from someone who figured out how to edit the files so that he could have trade stations sell him workshop ships in single player, he said the game appeared to set the prices based on the components that go into the blocks of the ship. If that's true then there must be some kind of calculation system in there to figure out a value for a ship in terms of number of blocks or components that go into those blocks. That might not be a bad thing, it could set the suggested retail price.

    Another thought might be a system like World of Warcraft's Auction House system, where player store blocks would be linked to a central galactic market. Of course how do you deliver?


    Just seems like there is so much more keen could be doing with this title at this point, but I think it's going to end up being up to the modding community ...
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. Lord Grey Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    366
    I already wrote at another place, I don't understand the fee to put your stuff in your owned store block. There is no broadcasting system, to show your store stock and prices to everyone, that needs financing. There is obviously no government to ask for taxes. I build and own the store. Why the hell should I pay to put items into my own store??? Doesn't make sense to me at all. I don't like things that don't make sense.
    Then the "bracketing" of the prices. Also not realistic. If I have a whole lot of Iron, I want to sell it as cheap as possible to get money. I don't want others to have the same price. That's how an economy work, request and availability.
    One should be able to put anything in a storage connected to the store block on market for free and the price they want.

    About multible currency, I don't think this is necessary in the game, the SCs are a good way to a common valuable as gold isn't that rare. Currency, to work, needs to fullfill some conditions. First it must be something that can't be easily be forged. There are Tribes that used clams or stone wheels as currency, because obtaining them was difficult due the work needed or the rarity of the item. Secound it needs acceptance in the society. Third, people need to trust the value of the currency. As no player can produce SC directly and the NPC release SC only for hard work, I think we can trust the value of the SC as it's not available in uncontrolled amounts. It's a little bit like bitcoins. Something that's not even existing as matter, but still valued by persons.

    BTW, I sold ships in the past by showing them to the customer in a safe zone. The payd by droping the SC amount and I took it, then I changed ownership to the buyer. Yea, they still need to trust you, but the ship is safe and there is no other way to get it.

    I think the primary reason for the safe zone was that people wanted to trade stuff, but had no certainity that the trade partner would be honest and not show up with a lot of guns to just take what he wants. Makes trading very dificult. Image how it would work in our society if ther's no government and no police force. And give the fact that crime and cruelty have no consequences onto the player in RL. It's not that there will be family members around to avenge the honest trader. At least you can set a bounty contract onto the "criminal".

    In my opinion the reputation system and the ecconomic system should work hand-in-hand. Your faction should be able to set the reputation to each other faction by hand. That way you can ensure that at the sligthes attack on your stuff, the reputation goes from neutral to hostile and your guns will open fire to the violator or the safe zone will expell him.

    It's my opinion that we just need a way to safely trade stuff with others and still have a protection of evil intended players.

    Of course I know that another goal of the economy update was to give players some reason in the game if they can't make their own long time achievements. Something to keep playing.
     
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  8. Aracus Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,931
    You make a lot of good points that are mostly easy to agree on, the main difference being a few detail /flavor choices.

    But your point about safe zones made me think about this thread about territories and it would be rather interesting to tie things together with you having to make sure some parts are secure yourself, by one way or another (yourself, drones, turrets or hiring help which drives economy) as well as having the truly safe neutral and shielded trading posts

    https://forums.keenswh.com/threads/should-there-be-an-npc-territory-system.7403567/#post-1287112774

    I think it could all tie in nicely to make a truly interesting game option with a real economic system