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"Playing SE should feel good and it starts with visuals..."-Marek Rosa

Discussion in 'General' started by Udrakan, Feb 3, 2018.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Udrakan Apprentice Engineer

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    111
    "Playing SE should feel good and it starts with visuals..."-Marek Rosa, major patch release stream
    I disagree with that statement. Game feeling good starts with GAMEPLAY. Visuals come after.

    I like this major patch, despite it's flaws. However, what most contributed to SE feeling good today was the wheel overhaul, which makes vehicles behave smooth and suspension really feels like it's working properly. That is a GAMEPLAY feature. If the wheels looked photorealistic, if they were leaving photorealistic tracks and looked like the rubber was deforming on ground contact IT WOULD STILL NOT FEEL GOOD if they didn't work properly!

    Anyone who enjoys videogames for many years knows, that gameplay makes or breaks games. Take any old classic, like AoE2 or CoD2. How about old Doom 1? Those games don't have delicate visuals, yet they "feel good" even today, proven by how many people still play those. The gameplay is what makes them feel amazing, not their graphics.

    On the other side there are games like The Order 1886 with it's amazing visuals for the time. No Man's Sky and it's beautiful art style and colors and Assassin's Creed Unity. All beautiful games with amazing visuals, however they all fall short in lack of content, gameplay or being broken by bugs. Their visuals didn't make them feel good.

    Visuals are part of the game feeling good to play, but they aren't even remotely close to how gameplay affects it.

    I am glad you updated SE's visuals and I think you did a good job of it, but don't prioritize them over gameplay. Gameplay is what drew so many people to play the game since 2013. Better visuals released later IMPROVED the experience, it didn't take the first place from gameplay.

    Gameplay issues are source of a lot of frustration, no matter how good the game looks, on the other hand, the game not looking good doesn't cause any frustration, it simply won't impress. I hope you are not going just for the first impression, because it sounded like that on the livestream and in your blog post.

    Please, focus on making SE, as you say it, "feel good" to play. By gameplay primarily and by audiovisuals secondarily. Multiplayer is the big frontier that has to be conquered and I am looking forward to what improvements will the future bring to it, because SE is my favorite game and you, Keen, are my favorite developers.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2018
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  2. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    4,841
    I strongly agree. I've been gaming since the first Atari 2600 hit the market. Yeah, that long ago. I can tell you this about visuals, if the game-play is fantastic, you're not looking at them. The only time you might is if there's a grindy bit where you have to spend a relatively long time traveling. You can play an old Atari 2600 title and ENJOY it TODAY because the gameplay is so solid and interesting. It does what it says on the tin.

    Jacking around with the graphics is an EA-style marketing ploy so that they can generate great screen-shots. It's eye-candy for reviewers who don't really want to delve deep into the game. The glare makes the game LESS playable. It took me less than five minutes to feel like I had conjunctivitis and trying to drive at night.
     
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  3. Commander Rotal Master Engineer

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    THANK YOU for saying it.

    When i heard Marek talking about the "First minutes Impressions" i was sitting there going "Uh, i've got some 4400 hour impressions for you, and most of them are negative right now". (Yesyesyes, "hoursbragging", bite me, it's topical.)
     
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  4. May Rears Apprentice Engineer

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    414
    "Playing SE should feel good and it starts with visuals..."-Marek Rosa, major patch release stream

    Wrong. There is a reason games like Stalker are still played, there is a reason why there are two private servers running Star Wars Galaxies, there is a reason people put the effort in to convert games like Daggerfall to run on windows machines.

    Feeling good while playing a game has far more to do with gameplay than visuals. Just as anyone putting themselves through Star Citizen 3.0.
     
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  5. Jexsam Trainee Engineer

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    4
    There's a difference between antiquated graphics and just plain bad ones.

    Final Fantasy IX, Spyro the Dragon, old generation Pokemon games, Gears of War 2, just to name those I revisit... They may look bad by today's standards, but that wasn't always the case. They're simply antiquated.

    The previous graphical setup SE had had issues, yeah, and there are a few things the new setup does better (not gonna lie, missile shootouts look fantastic now), but by and large they took a game that looked good but slightly antiquated and made it modern but very bad. And that I find extremely disappointing.
     
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  6. FoolishOwl Junior Engineer

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    522
    I can't agree with this.

    Mind you, I've spent many hours playing Angband, a game that uses only the old ASCII character set for graphics.
    [​IMG]

    But, the simplicity of the graphics don't mean that a lot of thought wasn't put into the design of those graphics. We're a visual-oriented species; it really does matter what things look like to us. In my adolescence, I also used to spend many hours buzzing around in Flight Simulator II on my Commodore 64. The graphics were simple, but they were well-executed, within the tight constraints of such a computer.

    In the case of Space Engineers, I often felt that a lot of my frustrations with it would melt away when I was actually admiring the visuals as I'd fly a ship around a landscape. But the graphics overhaul has ruined that. It's objectively bad design -- as in, I actually experience physical pain looking at the screen now. And, it doesn't make sense, stylistically or thematically.

    In any case, I would have preferred they focus on gameplay improvements rather than visual improvements. But, in fact, the visuals have been severely degraded. This update was worse than no update at all.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2018
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  7. Spets Master Engineer

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    3,214
    agree, and of course I like the update and the new visuals, except of you know, those eye candy triple A shit effects everybody hates
    an example of amazing graphics and zero gameplay could be Star Citizen, currently in Alpha of course, or Beta, or whatever
     
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  8. Logi Apprentice Engineer

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    170
    It bothers me how much Marek is glamoring AAA-games and the marketing methods behind them. AAA-games these days are stripped of any passion or innovation, coated with dem nice graphics and marketed by false promises. SE got me interested, because it was made by small indie team, which had passion for the game...had. Now it's all about making the game look good on videos, to attract more money for Marek's little AI-adventure. Ridiculous how they even made a tool to create videos which make it seem like there would be NPCs or large scale organized, roleplay oriented multiplayer.
     
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  9. Taemien Apprentice Engineer

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    468
    I'm going to play devil's advocate here.

    Gameplay is really important. But if perception hampers that gameplay, then you've kinda failed. This has to do more with whats happening under the hood. If you make a game for PC, its got to be 60FPS. Its got to run smooth. Having the best gameplay in the world will be soured badly by a subpar framerate and response from controls.

    Those basics have to be nailed down first. Even before major bug fixes with features. The engine has to run first and well, then you can take on the radio, power windows, and GPS. If KSH is focusing on the paintjob first, which is what many are alluding to, they'll find out real quick that that will end in failure.

    The good news is those of us with 500-5000hrs in the game more than got our money's worth. If they crash this game, they're the only ones who will suffer for it. Three years ago, it would have been a tragedy. But now there's half a dozen games in the genre to compete with, with more on the way. It'll be footnote in our steam library at the worst.
     
  10. Ravric Apprentice Engineer

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    318
    Visually not seeing as much clang as before is a great way to get started again.

    Following Taemien I would agree that visuals can be underestimated when compared to gameplay. When 3rd person with multiple grids was broken which is a visual aspect of the game it topped my list of issues I personally had. A few even noticed, much less complained and many did not even know what I was talking about.

    Quote aside what they have done to wheels is nothing short of amazing.
    --- Automerge ---
    "Playing SE should feel good and it starts with visuals..." As he instructs the KSH dev team to again cover windows with fecal matter and rock scratches.

    [​IMG]
     
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  11. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    4,841
    Here is my issue: Keen is an "indie" game company. Why are people attracted to SE? Because it's NOT built to the same formula as a triple-a game. Playability is king in the indie world, not console eye-candy. That's not where most indie game supporters want the budgets to go... but that's what the triple-A's focus on. They've been literally selling the same shooters for years with just subtle upgrades and changes to the graphics.

    We want substantive gameplay.

    Fixing the wheels was nice. The changes to the inertial dampening, run/walk speeds, graphics, etc... just felt like they received zero gameplay testing... unless it was just one tester in particular.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2018
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  12. Killtech Trainee Engineer

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    25
    hmm, i don't think you can view visuals and gameplay as strictly distinct things. physics for example is something that affects both. visuals isn't just high resolution textures and detailed models. it's also about making movements looking good/natural/intuitive, which implies making them physically correct and thus also affecting gameplay. the wheel update is therefore not just a gameplay change.

    oh, reducing the occurrence of wiggling, clanging, clipping grids in single and multiplayer is also part of visuals of a game. these things are really eye-catching and they certainly NEITHER LOOK NOR FEEL GOOD.

    that said i am divided on this issue. playing multiplayer with friends the buggy synchronized wheels, rotors and all related stuff is certainly a downer in the short term. long term the lack of gameplay especially in survival mode is a big problem. luckily mods can help here a bit but still this needs to be addressed.
     
  13. chrisb Senior Engineer

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    1,460
    I would say an example of really good graphics and nothing much else, would be ED.

    Its all about game-play, if there isn't any of that, there isn't a game.
    SE 'has' game-play, we just need fixes, the game looked more than fine, before this update. No one asked for the graphics, well no sane person.
    Most players would just like to have a solid game that we can play and trust keeps working right.

    At the moment KSH are just building more and more problems into the game. Problems they have to try and fix. When there were already a number of problems that have been waiting quite some time to get fixed. Should have fixed them first.
     
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  14. Udrakan Apprentice Engineer

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    We also have to take into consideration the team composition at Keen. From what I have heard, majority of them are artists. I don't know if it's true, so don't take it as a fact, but if that's the case, how are they supposed to keep most of the people working? Perhaps graphical overhaul was the only way to keep the company busy while at the same time improving the game a bit. I just wish that multiplayer got treated the same.
     
  15. R-TEAM Junior Engineer

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    530
    we are back to the last 1.185.x ...
    Only thing that is here noticable more bad is the wheels - but managable ....
    Have not found one bug we have here self see, that is fixed in 1.186.x ....
    Only more bugs ... more design flaws (jetpack/gfx shader/ore stone size.....) ....
    So ATM not worth to upgrade ....

    Regards
     
  16. PLPM Junior Engineer

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    842
    Maybe more variations of blocks?
    Decorative options?

    Things people like Rotal want with all of their heart.

    I didn`t get why the first visual overhaul was needed, and neither I do with this.
     
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  17. chrisb Senior Engineer

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    1,460
    I'll just throw this in.
    If Marek thinks it feels good if the visuals are at the forefront (which isn't right anyway). What happened when he passed the Skybox through, or was he away that day.
    That is one bad skybox.

    I play with no skybox, much better, for me at least. ;)
     
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  18. FoolishOwl Junior Engineer

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    522
    They released the new skybox early, as a mod, and the fan response was very negative. It's telling that they released the prior skybox as a mod, and mentioned specifically in the patch notes that you could download alternate skyboxes as mods.

    This goes towards showing that it's not a great idea to a) be secretive about what you're working on, and b) release a whole bunch of changes all at once. Now Keen's got a whole bunch of negative feedback, and the changes most people don't like are overshadowing the ones that people do. And the fixes to wheels, and the performance improvements, were not small things.
     
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  19. odizzido Junior Engineer

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    672
    I think graphics are nice to have. I also think it's nice to not fire your artists once they've completed the original work. I say let them continue to improve things.

    However I think good gameplay is essential. Not nice to have, but essential. AAA games are shit, I gave up on them years ago.
     
  20. doncdxx Apprentice Engineer

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    419
    While I generally agree with the "gameplay over graphics" idea, I fully understand where Keen is coming from on this. To have any single aspect finalized is an appealing idea. Prioritizing graphics has the advantage of affirming what the game will look like and gives the artists more certainty when designing or redesigning any textures, particles, or lighting effects.

    Graphics weren't even on the list of priorities for me, but after consideration, I'm glad they did it. I think I'll go play dx9 build again just to remind myself how far it's come.
     
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  21. Dr. Novikov Apprentice Engineer

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    And it ends when the game consumes 16 gigs of RAM and crashes :(
     
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  22. chrisb Senior Engineer

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    Yes, the wheels were a good fix, however they were just a fix. They did work o.k. a few years back..
    Calling them part of a 'Major' update isn't correct, they are just a fix, after all.



    Edit: must add, I/we do appreciate any fixes, the more the merrier. ;)
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018
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  23. FlakMagnet Senior Engineer

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    1,551
    It's pretty much agreed by just about everyone, that the visual 'changes' in the last patch are not good. They are not an upgrade...rather they are the classic example of throwing every tool in the GPU at an image and thinking it looks great because it's got lots of things done to it.

    It's the first and only patch I have removed as I refuse to play any game that looks this bad. So bad, I actually get sick looking at it.

    This is a shame as I really wanted the wheel update.

    I won't play the game looking that bad, and I won't test the game looking that bad. Really...Keen needs to pay a bit more attention to the community view when it is SO overwhelmingly in agreement. It takes a lot to get people to agree online....

    so...PLEASE .... ADMIT IT WAS A MISTAKE and look at removing some of the issues. Tone down the gloss A LOT, remove the blur, remove the crappy glass, and don't force us to hand edit config files to get a visual style that doesn;t over shadow the game.
     
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  24. Dr. Novikov Apprentice Engineer

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    263
    Flakmagnet, I have already fixed some of the problems and updated my Eyes Just Got Clear mod that used to fix unreadable LCDs before 1.186
     
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  25. FlakMagnet Senior Engineer

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    1,551
    @Udrakan ...... you genmuinely think THIS looks good?

    [​IMG]

    and that it is a serious improvement over how it used tro look...like this:
    [​IMG]

    Because those 2 screenshaots don;t look like the same game. The old look was definitely Space Engineers. Not 100% real looking, but it had a certain look that sat well with the game. The new look is over processed, ugly and jarring. I don;t want to see my vision blurring at the edges like I have a goldfish bowl over my head. The world doesn't look like that. Ever. I ride motorcycles and have spent thousands of hours in a crash helmet looking through a visor...that does not distort the world. That if it gets scratched..gets REPLACED. Why should space suits not give good vision? Why should windscreens be so crapped up too? Get a car screen that damaged and you would fix it. But while glass that is naturally shiny gets dull and scratched....every metal part on your ship has been mirror polished? That high gloss top image was at night...with the moon over the horizon.

    Be honest ....which looks better.
     
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  26. damoran Junior Engineer

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    Not saying I don't agree with you but you should take two identical shots for comparison. The shot on the planet looks much better but could be that it's in direct sunlight, it's not the ugly dropship and the background isn't completely saturated.

    All in all, the visual effects (after effects) are minor. The render improvements are welcomed, the wheel tweaks are welcomed and the new particle effects are very much appreciated. Would I have rathered an update addressing the glaring gameplay, lack thereof issues, sure but I'll take what I can get for now.
     
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  27. Killtech Trainee Engineer

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    to be honest, you don't look good in your post. it's quite a questionable method to pick a screenshot where the old graphics looked best with good lighting to compare it against a completely different scene with bad lightning (all in shadows) post patch. borders on trolling rather then an actual argument.
     
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  28. FlakMagnet Senior Engineer

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    Well excuse me. Sadly I neglected to take the time to uninstall the patch and then re-create the exact same scene. Instead I just picked a screenshot from those I already had. I'm such a troll. Clearly.

    But @Killtech ... are you saying you actually LIKE the way they have the game looking now or are you just defending Keen's honour? I am more than happy to set up some duplicate screenshots to satisfy the people who think I am somehow doing Keen a disservice by raising a gripe with a game I have spent nearly 3000hrs playing, and one I actually care about where the latest update just made it impossible for me to actually look at the screen. There were a few times in Alpha where patches made the game unplayable. Invisible asteroids....glass ships....all sorts of game breaking bugs. Those I could live with as they were unintentional, and the guys got them fixed.

    Trouble is .... this latest thing is not a bug. It's something they did on purpose, and that means they are not going to fix it. It means Marek likes it. I do not like it. I'm expressing that opinion as is my right. I am also doing so without insulting anyone, ranting or name calling. I honestly do not care how I 'look' when I am stating how I feel.
     
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  29. Udrakan Apprentice Engineer

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    111
    The patch was released few days back, there will be tweaks and fixes. Just like the glass scratches in the past. At the moment you have 2 options. First,you can see black and white: either it's a saviour patch or it absolutely sucks for you, which is more probable, and you will share your resentment. Your 2nd option is actually trying to improve the situation by sending screenshot to the right place and people. You can even send those old x new comparison screenshots to comment what you liked about the previous look and what should get changed in the new patch. There are people who think like you that some of the new graphical "Tryple A shit" -Marek Rosa features should be gone or significantly reduced or changed and I do think that too but don't dismiss the whole patch because some things look wrong, because the work is not done yet. Edit your post properly, send in more screenshots, voice your complaints, but also bring into attention what things you like about the new patch. I don't want to say that new graphics look like shit compared to graphics in the previous version, because the previous version had many months to be continualy improved and altered, especially early on when it released. Give it time and give it feedback, it will improve. Nobody wants to get stuck with shit. Neither players, nor the developers. Problem is that Marek Rosa is too interested in the eye candy stuff, so he pushes those stupid head-ache graphical features into the game, because they look great in a trailer or screenshot, but he doesn't play the game for hours to see how painful some of the things are. That's where we come in and (properly) criticize him and his approach. That's the reason for this whole post.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2018
  30. chrisb Senior Engineer

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    1,460
    They simply have to work on that PP & shadows. The games shadows have always been a little, 'iffy' lets say. I play without shadows enabled because the spikey edges I get when a shadow comes around (sun rotation), looks really bad. Whereas the game, to me, looks good with just the shaded areas and nothing else.

    If they can split PP because the metalic part, not sure what its called, looks o.k. to use seperately, you can in NMS. I like the idea metal should be shiney here and there.
    Also that vignette thing, another NMS has, but I use a mod in that to remove it, although I think you can remove it ingame now (haven't played for a while), could that not be optional.

    The update was well intended, I'm sure. But it just didn't work well and they are making a 'rod for their own backs', as the old saying goes. They'll be fixing this, which in turn takes time that could be used, fixing the ever present problems.

    Block textures could be optional surely ?
     
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