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Please update the turret AI

Discussion in 'Suggestions and Feedback' started by OboTheHobo, Jun 14, 2018.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. OboTheHobo Trainee Engineer

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    5
    first off, I have turrets shoot it's own ship many, many times. Even though this isn't supposed to happen, it happens to me ALL THE TIME. second, please make it so that they will lead the target, especially missile turrets, because currently they just shoot where it is right then and not where it will be with it's current trajectory.
     
  2. Forcedminer Senior Engineer

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    2,227
    if they lead the target they'd be "too perfect" they gotta have some drawback otherwise a lone player stands no chance against turret ai
     
  3. OboTheHobo Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    5
    true. But they really need to fix it shooting itself.
     
  4. Forcedminer Senior Engineer

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    2,227
    i believe there is an option to disable grids self harming.

    i could of sworn a good few months back this problem was fixed...but then popped up again. wonder if its more for optimization sake that turrets no longer check to see if they'll shoot themselves.
    .
    as much as it sucks it could be a self ship design flaw. i hate saying that.
     
  5. sioxernic Senior Engineer

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    2,535
    Turrets do lead :/ Perfectly too.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  6. Forcedminer Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,227
    disagree.confusion.if turrets did perfectly lead their target it'd be impossible to circle strafe using the engineers jetpack.

    experience.from what i have seen after dozens of jetpack raids.
    the turrets target your exact position and fires at it. the bullets then travel towards where you were located and miss because you've already moved....hopefully
    you tend to even see a red crosshair at what your auto turret target when firing and they are fixed exactly on your target.

    if the turrets did lead it'd be much much harder even impossible to jetpack raid a station or ship.
    or even do a fly by in a small grid. you'd take much greater damage if it was able to predict your location.

    the husk from killing floor 1 for example
    had the ability to lead its projectile shots and was infamous for sniping players across entire maps if they didn't change their direction after it had fired.

    I'm fairly certain there is scripts and mod packs that give turrets that can lead targets, but the vanilla turrets fire directly at you not where you are going.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  7. sioxernic Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,535
    That is exactly because they lead perfectly you can do that.

    If you go constant velocity straight, you will get shot and hit with every single bullet and missile, if you vary the velocity or direction of vector, you can avoid bullets, which means where it was leading to try and hit you, it missed.
    It only takes current vector into account, and doesn't take into account you rotating and changing that vector.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
  8. Forcedminer Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,227

    ............also known as leading the target, i.e. shooting ahead of a moving target so that the target and projectile will collide...............
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deflection_(ballistics)


    are you trying to start a fight?
     
  9. Sinbad Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,788
    if you have a constant vector (speed and direction) they will lead you and hit. any direction and speed that is in range of the turret. toward, away, sideways, whatever. as long as its a straight line.
    if your vector is perpetually changing (speed or direction) then they cant hit you. they calculate lead angle for the vector you are on when they fire, if you change that vector you can force a miss of any shots fired to lead the old vector.
    note: vectors in this case are straight lines. if you are maneuvering on an arcing course (a circle or through the peak of a power slide) the vector it leads is a tangent of that arc.

    predicting arcs is much heavier math and few real world military targeting systems bother to do it as the projectile and target velocities are so much higher in real life that a tangent on a curve is still close enough for effect. and im not just referring to explosive rounds with that statement. a CIWS can put thousands of rounds down a vector in a second. with the inaccuracy of the weapon it results in a cloud of kinetic rounds in the vicinity of the predicted target position. kind of a WW2 AA airburst shell deployed the hard way: one piece of shrapnel at a time. with these weapons you generally only need one or two rounds to hit for a mission kill (thats where the target may still be alive, but is so damaged its no longer able to fulfill its purpose)

    that brings up why it is so easy to evade turrets in SE. projectile speeds are far too low, fire rates are far too low, weapon accuracy (putting a round in the location you intend, not hitting what you are aiming at) is too high and the damage per round is too low.
    in other words it takes too long for the round to get there, there are not enough of them arriving in the predicted position in a short enough period of time to form an area of denial. even if there were, they are so accurate that the rounds would be clustered far too closely together to form an effective kill zone. and even if they did manage to do all that, the damage per round is so low that the one or two hits it scores isn't enough to mission kill the target.

    basically as they are now you have (range to turret in meters divided by projectile speed in m/s) seconds to make sure your hit box doesn't occupy the same area of the firing arc it did when the turret fired. for continuous fire turrets you also need to make sure your hit box doesn't occupy the same area it has for the past (see previous calculation) seconds. low cross sectional area helps a lot here, as does high lateral and dorsal acceleration (love that new boosted jetpack performance). any large change in vector will result in a curved trajectory, leaving the turret in-effectively plugging away at the tangents.

    if projectile speeds were higher, the time to move your hit-box is reduced. raise them high enough and you cant avoid getting hit due to speed limits and practical acceleration limits, but you might be able to make it miss the exact block it was aiming for. but if they also had a higher rate of fire and were less accurate then a cloud of rounds would arrive around where it was aiming. enough inaccuracy to make a 30ish meter across circle, and enough rounds per second to so that the circle becomes a 30ish meter sphere (over a tenth of a second or so time) centered on the predicted position, now its almost guaranteed to score a hit on anything that doesn't have the ability to shift its hitbox by 30meters in (range to turret in meters divided by projectile speed in m/s) seconds. most blocks can take a few stray rounds so just spreading a cloud of 100 weak rounds over a hundred large blocks or so (30m = 12 large blocks = pi*6blocks^2) isnt so bad. the chances of it destroying the exact 2.5m^3 block it was aiming for is pretty low. unless damage per round is increased to what you would expect from a round designed to destroy large grid blocks (or small grid if that's your preferred flavor) in one shot. something like this: [​IMG]
    which also comes in a 30mm round called APSE (armor piercing special effects)
    punch through then explode and scatter some thermite or white phosphorous around. that should take most blocks below the red line.
     
    • Informative Informative x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,959
    That’s interesting; I never realized these rounds included zirconium as an incendiary agent. No wonder reactor fuel burns so hot if it ever ignites.
     
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