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Private Beacons

Discussion in 'Suggestions and Feedback' started by Bobbyjoeangus, Jan 21, 2014.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Bobbyjoeangus Trainee Engineer

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    31
    I apologize in advance for my improper gammer and spelling I'll probably make in this, because it's about 7 in the morning here, so once again sorry.

    Something I can see being a problem down the road is beacons. Sure there great in single player for finding your base again, but in multiplayer they would totally giveaway your position!

    I think there should be two modes for them. Public and private. Public would be everyone could see, which would be useful for server owners or admins (ie: Spawn or Ship yard). Private would be you (or maybe a few others if they should be a way to do that) being the only person/people being able to see it, so you can have a way to find you base again with out have a fleat of grifters comimg after your station.

    Well you might say "Oh dis stoff is sooooo stoopid! I can already find my base!" But that's now. In a few months they'll be servers starting up a building a community.And then'll be bigger areas in the world, therefore it will be harder to find your base again with the lack of land marks. And your not gonna wanna be that guy with a base close to spawn cause your scared you would find it again, just to have it destroyed by some noob.

    So what do you do? GhostBusters! Jk :p. You'll build your base far away, and use a beacon! That perfect right? No, cause now you've got half of the players on the server headed to you base to bust it. So what the awnser to being able to find your base without have grifers swarming it? Private beacon to the rescue!

    So now do you see why there should be private beacons?
    Bobbyjoeangus signing out.
     
  2. AstTheCat Trainee Engineer

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    34
    If you open the Terminal in game (K) you can see a Faction tab. Beacons will most likely be customizable (vision-wise) once the devs implement the factions to the game.
     
  3. Bobbyjoeangus Trainee Engineer

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    Oh never really realized that. But my suggestion is a guild line on what that could be.
     
  4. Neon Trainee Engineer

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    The suggestion was done one or two months ago. I don't know the title anymore.

    In my opinion it is unnecessary to make beacons somehow private and it wouldn't make much sense realism wise. In reality you could probably hide who the owner of a beacon is by encoding the beacon signal,
    but it's certainly possible to trace a signal back to it's source. So the location of a beacon that is always sending something is easy to find.
    I also think it would make it to easy to hide your stuff. The way it is, it would force the community to be creative in figuring out methods to hide their bases. I think that is more interesting this way.

    Here a suggestion from me how you could hide and find your base again with the current beacons.
    Place somewhere in the world a small structure with a beacon and make a marking on the structure that tells you the direction of your base.
    An alternative would be to place multiple beacons in the world and noting the distance to some of the beacons.
     
  5. Gentry Senior Engineer

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    2,167
    A beacon's job is to be exactly that, a beacon.

    There is absolutely nothing that can suggest that you can hide a beacon from one group of players while showing it to another in reality.

    What you're really after is another system entirely. But beacons should always be beacons.

    You're removing a lot of the meta if you can turn beacons into convenient things you can use with no repercussions.
     
  6. Carrion Senior Engineer

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    1,409
    uh hu

    evidently you never considered crytpology, and IFF systems in that gentry. you know a where the hell am i call so they can ping on when queried and which isnt transmitted over "commercial" or normally used frequencies.

    now what do we have on earth which does this already?????????

    thats a point you really dont get engineering do you gentry. the idea is sound and practical and has a way of enhancing game play instead of the detractor which it potentially is at the moment .
     
  7. Aurenian Apprentice Engineer

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    373
    Either this or some sort of map system so you know where you are and where you are trying to go. The bookmark system in Eve works for keeping faction locations secret.
     
  8. Igneous01 Apprentice Engineer

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    This is a game - one that is very far away from reality. If there is no map system than private or faction beacons is a good alternative. Id like to draw a comparison to Arma map markers, which can have public/private/group setting. This is a good compromise to make if (again) there is no map or navigation system planned for the game.
     
  9. Gentry Senior Engineer

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    2,167
    [​IMG]

    lmao

    you can't hide a location of a signal in space

    period

    encrypting it just encrypts it

    you can still see exactly where its coming from
     
  10. Carrion Senior Engineer

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    1,409
    uhuh yes well done you have managed to work out where you are. congratulations plant the flag have a party do whatever you do.

    there is such a thing as DIRECTIONAL transmission which is LOS. its old tech and can be intercepted by being in the right place.

    now prey tell what if its not an "always on" system. wait whats this? logic at work.

    if the system is a signaled on to operate via an omnidirectional ship to beacon broadcast along the electronic lines of "Im lost tell me where i am so i can orientate myself" . the beacon reads this message and fires a directional reply along the lines of "Im over here numbnuts got yourself lost again in 3d space. happy now? right back to sleep i go till next time".

    logic system of query determine action and response. we dont need to write the code to make it work in a game



    now lets go to aviation markers which are the closest thing to beacons i can think of.

    it is possible with some work to find the frequencies and listen to the dull repeating tones of nav markers. now does this mean anything to me as a random observer? nope because i dont have the codes to understand what it is saying to me. i dont know what the frequency and tone an pattern is for say JFK so even if i was listening. the right reciver system can translate this codes into the electronic version of "Hi im JFK approach my position is XYZ and altidute above sea level is D you are at position FGH and altitude S relative to me to join the pattern goto bearing YUI and altitude P and follow further instructions.

    nor do i have the ability to triangulate the signals to determine exactly where the signal comes from from the limited data set i have got .

    i may be able with the right equipment to determine the bearing from my position in a crude manner but i still cant determine distance, or what the "message" is saying.

    now link this back into the above in SE land.

    i may want to have an open access beacon saying Buy shizzle here free trade area.
    i may want to do the same with a minefield.
    i may just want to put up some signs saying get off my land.

    however i may also want to have a hidden area. which is hard to find.
    so this isnt a public open view beacon.

    i put the im lost signal out and the beacon reads it and fires off its reply. somone may be able to intercept a directional communication but unless they have the codes all they know is that there is a signal being transmitted along a line. they i happen to be on. they cant read it so they dont know that beacon no1 is 234m away on ABC vector which gives them a 1 in 129600 chance of going on the correct vector for an intercept. its still a reasonably "safe" system not infallible


    look we have managed to engineer a solution to one of your problems brought about by a terminal lack of thinking. and all without really having to work out a newblock or anything as the joy is its an electronic and logic system which can be computer controlled.
     
  11. Azan Trainee Engineer

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    46
    Whether it's done through beacons or not the idea of having a private way of storing and finding locations in a map makes sense. Can't really see any gameplay reason to deny that.
     
  12. SpeedyB Trainee Engineer

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    95
    A mostly stealth beacon is quite possible. Your ship sends out a ping on that beacon's frequency containing its encryption password and your location. When the beacon receives the ping it establishes a tight-beam radio connection to your ship.
    The only way to intercept it would be to fly through the beam. This would add some skill to finding enemy beacons, you would have to fly around the enemy ship until you intercept the signal. It may be possible to receive the signal if the beam passed through a dense dust cloud and you had an enormous antenna to detect the faint scattering of the signal.
     
  13. Gentry Senior Engineer

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    2,167
    <h2 id="id--Nicoll&#39;s_Law">Nicoll's Law

    "It is a truth universally acknowledged that any thread that begins by pointing out why stealth in space is impossible will rapidly turn into a thread focusing on schemes whereby stealth in space might be achieved."

    </h2>
     
  14. BlankWarningsign Apprentice Engineer

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    278



    I can Hide in space! Gimme Dat Rock!</h2>
     
  15. Grim Apprentice Engineer

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    341
    There is in fact a way to hide in space.



    Kill everything so you don't have to hide.
     
  16. GDFKingTigerTank Apprentice Engineer

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    Unfortunately Gentry, you're wrong on this one.

    It's actually fairly equivalent to compare hiding in space to hiding in a submarine.

    A submarine can make a hell of a lot of noise if it has its sonar actively pinging and its close to the surface and its running with the throttle wide open.

    But that same submarine running at low speed on electric or ultra-quiet diesels, at depth under multiple thermal layers, and in an area that say has ambient background noice caused by tectonic plate movement or from other vessels in the area? MUCH harder to find. Not to mention lack of light deep in th ocean = no visuals either.


    So then what about a spacecraft?

    You could hide heat and visual identification by being behind an asteroid.
    Also, visual identification of the target could be difficult because unless it's moving right across a star or a planet or something giving off ambient light that a sensor would detect a fluctuation from.
    electromagnetic/radar/radiation signatures - simply power down those systems to decrease detection range.
    Additionally there is background "noise" in space (radiation) that something could use to hide transmissions/emissions by being close to the noice making object or putting the noise maker between itself and a hunter.
    As someone already mentioned there are tight beam comm systems that unless the interceptor is in line with the beam, will not get detected.

    Now an openly broadcasting beacon, how can you hide that?

    Again, make the broadcasting frequency something wierd or that blends in with background noise.
    Also, who says a beacon has to be broadcasting directly to YOU To find it? You could have 100 secret beacons on a tight beam comm to one central beacon that then open broadcasts a continual encrypted update on all the other beacons. Your ship can still nav to those other beacons unless the central beacon gets destroyed.
     
  17. Gentry Senior Engineer

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    2,167
  18. GDFKingTigerTank Apprentice Engineer

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    That's not a counter argument, that's a comic.

    If visual and infrared tracking of objects in space was as easy as you suggest we wouldn't still be "discovering" asteroids just as they happen to be a day or two away from passing within a hundred thousand miles or so of us...

    And upon further consideration - at the much smaller visual distances involved in this game, hiding might be realistically harder, and yet... definitely still possible.
    Example: Hiding ship behind an asteroid and Sun relatively behind it providing radiation masking.
     
  19. Gentry Senior Engineer

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    2,167
    okay then

    http://www.rocketpunk-manifesto.com/2009/06/space-warfare-ii-stealth-reconsidered.html

    [SIZE= 12.727272033691406px]"[/SIZE]In space, everyone sees everything. But in war, no one can be quite sure what they are seeing."

    So yeah, you can't hide the beacon, but you can probably hide what its saying exactly.

    also

    http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/spacewardetect.php

    you're just spitballing stuff without any scientific knowledge if what you're saying is true or not

    "just hide behind a rock with the sun behind you to provide radiation masking"
     
  20. OracleTX Apprentice Engineer

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    196
    Pretty pictures aside, Gentry, you are still wrong as ever.

    See Dark Matter, and look up http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albedo. A low albedo object that is emitting little or no radiation/signals on its own will be nearly impossible to detect with passive sensors. Add in some radar-absorbing coatings and a stealthy shape like the B-2 bomber and it can defeat active sensors too. Throw in some decoys, and an enemy will know something is out there, but not be able to find the ship, assuming their sensor system doesn't just give up from all the mess or get jammed into uselessness.

    Back on topic, I think a "private" beacon should not necessarily be stealthy because it would still have to transmit to get a friendly to detect it. Maybe a broadcasted IFF query with a tightbeam response? Then the seeking ship would disclose its location but the beacon would not. A regular always-transmitting beacon would always be detectable at least intermittently even if it is frequency-hopping on a predetermined pattern so friendlies can detect it.
     
  21. Gentry Senior Engineer

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    2,167
    Everything you have just suggested will never hide anything in space.

    You are indisputably wrong.
    Read up more on stealth in space and how it doesn't exist. At all. Period.
     
  22. Carrion Senior Engineer

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    1,409
    neither of those links have any form of technical credibility or peer review what so ever. that is terrible "evidence" and if that truly is the best you have got seriously stop it now before you make yourself look even more stupid.

    a comic does not make fact, a couple of naff blogs do not make even acceptable supporting evidence for a secondary school level report. if i were to use either of those as a cited source in any document it would be rejected immediately and with good reason.


    now as this is wandering away from the topic of having beacons which can be detected only by Owner or allied players which im pretty sure i detailed how is both technically feasible and also a decent addition to the game.

    how does something "hide"

    well there are several things which could be done

    1) vision. if you cant see it you well cant see it. away with faery cloaking shields and look at really real stuff

    A) paint it. paint it black no1. space is dark. so you can reduce but not eliminate your silhouette by this simple act of camouflage or rather paint it a dark blue with low energy bulbs around it set to match the surround darkness as black is too dark and the difference can be seen.
    B) We hide with pride. behind a rock, in a rock. as debris. you know the art of concealment. including pretending to be something else
    C) the sun. hard to see with that furnace in your eyes. and optics arnt much better either.
    D) lower profiles. smaller is by nature harder to spot.

    2) Em Con or emission control

    A) stop broadcasting. no active emissions to be detected no chance of them being picked up (que the normal heat in space yadda yadda es we know this already and it isnt a all the time thing).
    B) radiate away from the enemy. ok not always practical but it would work. seeing as it is naffing off at high speed away from them its kind of hard to detect it.

    3) Defeating active sensors

    seriously RAM is old now. and Radar deflecting contours art exactly new tech either
    Laser ranging. bit harder how about say a mirrored surface designed to bounce beams off randomly. i do say i think i have it. go me.

    Active's which kind of already exist down here on the rocky thing
    Jamming. a good blue session really messes up peoples desire to hunt you down.
    decoys.
    flares for those heat seekers or maybe just having a rave.
    Camouflage patterns to confuse and disorientate. BTW i do actually know why they used dazzle cammo in ww1 on ships despite it looking useless.

    whilst the latter stuff does not hide your location it hides it well ENOUGH to prevent a definite hit or location/ID tag.

    but of course the OP wasn't asking for the magic cloak of disappearing he was simply asking for a way to not hav all and sundry arrive at his construction site he marked as its a bit of a downer and makes the block all but useless.
     
  23. OracleTX Apprentice Engineer

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    196
    Prove it.

    If you actually read about albedo you will see that natural objects can be more or less difficult to observe in space depending on how reflective the surface is.

    Here are a few links just in case somebody is interested in the topic and able to handle the jargon:
    Highly technical, and mostly looking at astronomy, but consider the intersection of sensors, what they can detect, and physical properties of a ship. - http://www.astro.caltech.edu/~george/ay122/ParameterSpaces.pdf

    This one is about solving the real-world problem of detecting objects in space or low orbit using computer algorithms to evaluate sensor data.
    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&amp;rct=j&amp;q=&amp;esrc=s&amp;source=web&amp;cd=3&amp;cad=rja&amp;ved=0CDsQFjAC&amp;url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dtic.mil%2Fcgi-bin%2FGetTRDoc%3FAD%3DADA531834&amp;ei=BEjgUqKQL6Hh2AXQ04GADw&amp;usg=AFQjCNEaPqH8fiv2n4F8DaHRaAQsnTqcOA&amp;sig2=mLh6gnlP_nlklj9oFd6c1w&amp;bvm=bv.59568121,d.b2I
     
  24. paswert Junior Engineer

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    756
    It's still a GAME, Space Engineers is still a GAME and as such some things that wouldn't work in reality do work in-game so stop using reality as a way to stomp on people suggesting GAME mechanics that could be fun.
     
  25. Slimecole Trainee Engineer

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    44
    Well technically you CAN hide a beacon signal from other players. It's like texting. When you send a text you don't send it to the whole world, it's private. and Public beacons are like Television. It's not rocket science. It would just send "signals" to certain players. So it is VERY realistic. having only Public beacons would be... out-dated and weird. I think there should 100% be Private Beacons +1
     
  26. Gentry Senior Engineer

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    2,167
    projectrho is literally the best resource on the web and is staffed by astrophysicists.

    Also all your nicoll's law attempts have been proven never to work in space

    yet you still decided to write a massive post which wasn't even right.

    Literally that website goes through every single one of your suggests and points out how its stupid.
     
  27. Gentry Senior Engineer

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    2,167
    That isn't how it works at all lmao
     
  28. Jikanta Apprentice Engineer

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    "Let's agree to disagree." You two need to put your calculators down, pocket protectors away, and play Space Engineers. The Game.

    All sorts of games have friend or foe detection with their sorts on enabling and disabling the enemies way of detecting. It's redundant. It's not realistic. But there ya go.

    My only gripe is why do beacons have to transmit their name and shine like a miniature sun? Eh.
     
  29. DEAL0010 Trainee Engineer

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    71
    This is a response to those who still think beacons can be privatized - hidden from unauthorized. I've been watching this thread for a while now, and frankly, the arguments are shite.

    You know, if people could stop making arguments based on pure conjecture without, at the bare of least, a scientific background, that'd be great.


    Okay, one of the first things people arguing here are going to need to understand is that these "signals" are LIGHT - particles emitted by your device, whatever it is. These particles cannot be hidden from others sight (Well, as long as you want these particles to be receivable by people, such as you). The only way you can really hide light is by either blocking it, absorbing it, or refraction (Ensuring that it never reaches your enemies eyes).

    You can block light, yes, but this leads to technical difficulties. For example, if you tried blocking it with, per say, an asteroid, the individuals on the other side won't find you (Being that you are using a region of the spectrum that won't go through everything, such as gamma radiation, if I'm correct. You DO NOT WANT gamma radiation - You will die.). However, should you ever decide to venture to the other side of said asteroid, you too will lose connection. Frankly, anything in the way of the stream of light (Light practically always travel in a relatively straight line) will prevent you finding your beacon.
    In short, blocking it won't work well.

    I am not going to discuss absorbing light because of how stupid it'd be. Seriously, how would that help you? Same problems as before - you lose the connection.

    Refraction could work, if you were constantly able to tell where your allies are (which is difficult), and if you had warping technology (unlikely), or at least something that can generate a force capable of bending light (such as gravity, which, at that point, you're creating a black hole, neutron star, etc.).

    All in all, you cannot hide your beacons. And Slimecole, that is completely invalid. Texting IS sent to the whole world, it is NOT, in reality, private. When you send text or any kind of signal generated by your phone, with the right tools, anyone can see it. It's the matter of understanding it that is completely different (Software nowadays generally encrypts these signals). There is not public or private light - there is only private encryption. You can easily receive someone else's signals, if you wanted to, but you will not necessarily understand it.


    Anyway, for those of you who are too lazy to read the above words, here's a simple version;
    Light is LIGHT, nothing special. A beacon which will emit light (we currently have no alternative) will be visible to EVERYONE, like a lamp in an immense, empty, dark room. You can use the lamp, however, to send morse code, or some other binary combination you have as a language. This, however, ONLY ensures who will understand it.

    Controlled radio waves in space aren't exactly the most common (I trust Gentry to correct me, should I be wrong). So it isn't particularly hard to differ between man-made signals and miscellaneous light from celestial objects. This is the major problem about beacons; No matter what you do, a convenient beacon will ALWAYS visible to the eyes of wondering pirates. No matter what you do, people will always know that something, such as you, is creating it.

    TL;DR : Beacon = Unprivatizable

    The best stealth is silence.
     
  30. Grim Apprentice Engineer

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    341
    I have decided to quote you, Mr/Ms DEAL.
     
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