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Problem with CTG?

Discussion in 'General' started by Arcturus, Sep 11, 2018.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Arcturus Senior Engineer

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    https://forums.keenswh.com/threads/changes-to-ctg-rules-and-guidelines.7401923

    So apparently there is some kind of "turmoil"/"problems" in SE's "Closed Testing Group". Anyone got any info on what is going on?


    I'm not a fan of the concept myself, for a few reasons:
    1. "Some items the CTG may test could be retired from the game’s current build before ever being revealed to the public" - inconsistent with Early Access development, or at least other developers show what they are thinking/doing

    2. "If a candidate is offered a membership to the CTG, they must sign a Non-Disclosure Agreement (“NDA”) with Keen Software House" - inconsistent with Early Access development, and unethical since a good loyal QA tester should be paid

    3. "CTG members are pillars of the Keen Software House gaming community. They are members of our community that have proven themselves to be both avid fans and valuable contributors" - no, having to put KSH interests above community interests means they kind of stop counting as "community"

    4. Spooky evasiveness - generally toxic to the community


    I'm kind of a Radical Transparency fan.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  2. Malware Master Engineer

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    Yeah. Because publishing features to the public and then removing them works wonders for PR...

    You really think other developers show you everything they think/do? I think you'll find that to be rather rare if you really start digging. Sure, there's probably some exceptions but this is quite common practice, and if you think this has anything to do with the early access concept you've completely missed the idea of what that's about. For every thing they tell you about, there's 10 things they don't. Hello Games is the poster boys of what happens when you talk too much.

    They have paid testers. That's their first line. The Ctg is more like the private screenings of movies. Paid testers are not playing. They deliberately try to search out bugs. This often causes patterns, which means bugs might get missed. The Ctg then just play normally, and catch stuff the testers wouldn't have concidered. Ctg isn't working, just playing. It's not a job.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2018
    • Agree Agree x 2
  3. mojomann71 Senior Engineer

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    Agreed @Malware Early Access does not entitle everyone to see or experiment with everything developers try out.

    It wouldn't be all that fun to play around with everything devs come up with.
     
  4. Roxette Senior Engineer

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    "The major problem — one of the major problems, for there are several — one of the many major problems with governing people is that of whom you get to do it; or rather of who manages to get people to let them do it to them.

    To summarise: it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it. To summarise the summary: anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job. To summarise the summary of the summary: people are a problem."

    - Douglas Adams.
     
  5. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    I once caught a CTG, but a quick trip to the doctor's office cured it.
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
  6. Thrak Junior Engineer

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    Step away from the keyboard, and come out slowly, with your hands where we can see them.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  7. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    I'm clean now. Honest.
     
  8. rexxar Senior Engineer

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    Yes, there's a lot of turmoil and problems in CTG right now. I'd advise everyone to stay well away. It honestly is not a place you want to be.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    I'll agree with the non-disclosure agreement comment. Having someone sign that who is doing work FOR FREE is simply taking advantage of the fans of the game IMHO. Putting yourself in legal jeopardy and not being paid really isn't quid pro quo. I'd advise anyone offered an NDA to not sign it without legal representation reading it over and advising you. That's a bit of a bridge-to-far for something that is supposed to be "community" orientated.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  10. GrindyGears Senior Engineer

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    Ronin, that NDA is more so that you don't spill secrets to the public about whats actively being developed, most of the "legal jeopardy" will go away by simply being kicked from CTG, assuming that whatever you post wasn't too damning to keen.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. rexxar Senior Engineer

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    NDA is actually pretty standard for this kind of thing. It truly isn't something to get upset about.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  12. Gwindalmir Senior Engineer

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    The NDA isn't a problem, and it's so people don't just join CTG and spill out the secrets of development to the public (or steal them to implement in something else). Keen has used the NDA since the first community members joined. Some developers use it, some don't. Keen is just a little more protective, which as a developer myself, I can understand. You don't have to join CTG, so if you don't want to sign it, you are free not to.

    As for the issues in CTG, well, it's hard to talk about, due to the aforementioned NDA. It's not entirely clear if discussion of the CTG itself is covered under that. Based on the wording, I'd say no, however until now, no public discussion of CTG has happened, so this is uncharted.

    I will add, if you are an ME player, and wish to join ME's CTG, please do so! They have a different system, which works for them much better.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2018
  13. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    The first rule of CTG is that you don’t talk about CTG. I’m just saying...
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
  14. X_Wing_Ian Trainee Engineer

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    Well more a a gentleman's rule of thumb as people can bombard you questions and nag you to death, about what going to be in the next update or what is going on so and so on.
     
  15. Gwindalmir Senior Engineer

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    Let me address your concerns point by point.
    This is exactly what CTG should be for. If a feature or something is deemed really bad, and we provide feedback to Keen, it absolutely should be held back or removed. For example, experimental mode, and the graphics overhaul are two recent examples of things we in CTG tried to delay, or change.
    This is how early access, and closed testing is supposed to work.
    I addressed this in a previous post.
    How are we putting Keen first? I'm disappointed and kind of offended at that statement, and I'd like to know what makes you feel that way. You have no idea what we've fought for, for the community. You only need to read the comments on that very CTG topic you linked to see whose "side" we are on.
    That is exactly the issue, you hit the nail on the head.
    --- Automerge ---
    For reference, I'm not trying to "expose" Keen, or anything malicious.
    My goal is to fix CTG, and what I (and others) have learned over the past year or so, is that it takes overwhelming public response for Keen to look at something. Since Keen had decided to discuss CTG publicly for the first time, there hasn't been a more appropriate time.

    We want Keen to fix CTG, and make sure the solution works before inviting the public to join.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2018
    • Agree Agree x 1
  16. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

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    Isn't this conversation like two years too late? How necessary, and impactful is even a perfect SE CTG going to be at this point?
     
  17. Gwindalmir Senior Engineer

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    We asked that same question.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  18. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

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    I don't think anyone would dispute the CTG members contributions and hard work. I think what Arcturus meant is that because of the CTG's 'Elite Status' they are often perceived as in the role of representing KSH (whether true or not) and can take punitive measures on members of the lower class. If everyone involved (including 'the community') were all employees, employment law would classify CTG members as lower management. To say you represent 'us' isn't exactly accurate.

    I agree that the CTG plays a vital role in game development. So vital it shouldn't be 'volunteer'. Mainly because what you call 'play' I call a torturous never-ending series of testing and bug discovery. So what if it's fun? Hockey players have fun and they get paid ridiculous sums of money. Are you at least able to put this service on your resume?

    Also, I'm a little miffed that there are official paid testers. I feel like I deserve a raise :D
     
  19. Malware Master Engineer

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    You've got the wrong idea of what the CTG is. We don't have an elite status. We don't have any way to "take punitive measures" on anyone (and I have absolutely no idea how you got that idea), we aren't "managing" anyone. If we were all employees the CTG would at best be trustees, but in no way managers and not paid any more. The representation statement is perfectly accurate, we don't represent KSH in any way or fashion, we represent the community. We are part of the community. We're not told or ordered to do anything. If someone goes out of their way to actually and actively do real testing or bug discovery, then that's their choice, but I doubt many do - because that really would be a job and that really would not be fun. We just play, and if we come across bugs, we report them. Some are gone for long periods of time and then return. This is so far removed from a job as it can be.

    I'm really not sure I'd want to put "played a game a little earlier than others" on my resume...
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  20. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    Oh, man, you broke the first rule of CTG club!
     
  21. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

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    Taken from CTG Rules and Guidlines:

    "Violation of this Code of Conduct is grounds for dismissal from the CTG, or/in addition, to being banned from the Keen Software House Discord server. As a CTG member you are held to a high standard. As an experienced member of the “Space Engineers” or “Medieval Engineers” community, your contributions are seen as a “cut above the rest”."

    You have this CoC because you are, or could be, seen as representing KSH.

    Do CTG members not fill the role of Moderators on Keen Discord and Twitch? You can ban members in that case can you not?
     
  22. Sarekh Senior Engineer

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    Seriously, dude - you're talking about a bunch of people that are closed focus testing from a player perspective and are basically told to not being drunk and rant racist stuff on the discord because they could be associated with Keen. That's it. That's all.

    They don't
    - get awesome influence on game design
    - paid
    - to represent Keen
    - a dolphin lounge with dolby surround systems and a 3d cinema
    - free popcorn

    They test pre-release candidates and report bugs and give feedback. That's it. If you want elite, get yourself a payback card and go shop stuff, you will get more outta this.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  23. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    No free popcorn!!??!! Say it ain't so!!! I'm out...
     
    • Funny Funny x 3
  24. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

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    See: Elite.
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
  25. Gwindalmir Senior Engineer

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    The reason for that CoC has a long and sordid history, and that's not it.

    Nope, we have no special privileges, with the exception of getting access to a build before you do.
    The reason for which is to make sure really bad game-breaking bugs don't get out there (yes, some still do, for various reasons). If only you saw the ones we did catch though. :D
    We no authority or permissions above anyone else, particularly in Discord.
    I can't just ban someone in Discord. We have to call in the regular moderators as much as anyone else. :D

    There is one exception, and that is myself, in relation to the KCN Twitch channel. I mention it for the sake of full disclosure. Xocliw made me a moderator there since there aren't enough mods active in twitch for the streams, which get trolls, and he only did so because I'm already a well established moderator in his personal channel. My permissions do not extend anywhere outside of twitch, and even in twitch, I limit what I do, as I don't want to overextend my authority, as I'm not sure how "official" it is. I don't consider myself a full fledged moderator of the channel, but I understand if you do. I'm just there as an emergency, as without me, there are basically zero mods. The developers are mods too, but they don't actually moderate, as it's not their job.
    No other CTG members are moderators of that channel to my knowledge.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2018
  26. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

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    Ah, that explains it. Thanks for clearing that up.

    Ok, CTG's membership as lowly peons with the rest of us is hereby reinstated. :D
     
  27. Jimmacle Trainee Engineer

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    CTG is essentially a group of regular old players that Keen should be listening to closely when it comes to reporting bugs and other gameplay issues before game versions go live to everyone else. This has not been happening very much which is the cause for general unrest within CTG and Keen taking poorly executed steps to attempt to improve relations.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  28. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    Hm-m-m-m-m...I wonder if I'm old enough to be considered an "old player". But, unfortunately, I'm a bit irregular.
     
  29. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    What is it with you and popcorn :munch:?
    I'm old enough to be considered an old anything. I take pills for regularity.
     
  30. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    Popcorn became my cause...my purpose...my very reason for existing. Others are spun up about so many things, but no one jumped on popcorn. Besides, I like the little animated gif... :munch:
     
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