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PVP Players Feel Neglected

Discussion in 'General' started by Bullet_Force, Feb 9, 2018.

Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Bullet_Force Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    357
    This game has great potential to be one of the best PVP games available on PC due to its combined strengths of player designed ships and weapons and terrain destruction but is sadly given little to no thought from the developers.

    If I trawl though the PVP survival games available on Steam right now the top ones are games like ARK, Rust and Conan. These are hugely popular PVP titles and yet it is the humble Space Engineers which actually offers a superior PVP experience.

    • None of these games allow players to design their own ship like SE does.
    • None of these games let players design custom weapons and use code to enhance those weapons/ships with automation.
    • None of those games feature the more realistic physics that SE does.
    • None of those games let players alter the terrain

    But there is one thing those games do feature that SE doesn't and it is a significant one. They feature more then just two weapons. For almost its entire development cycle this game Space Engineers has only ever offered players a choice between arming their ship with a Gatling gun or with a rocket launcher.

    Another flaw that currently limiting the PVP potential of this game is the lack of radar. It is currently very hard to find other players if they don't want to be found. There are a lot of "PVP" servers where no PVP will happen for several weeks since players can't find one another due to the expanse of space. A radar would solve this issue.

    I'm not a developer and I don't know what their long term goals are for this game but if you look at Steam Charts for this game it is slowly dieing off. Loading up the server browser tonight I noticed it listed around 600 servers and yet by my estimates 90%+ of them were 0/60. Ie dead servers. The few that were not dead had only a handful of players in them with the top one having 12.

    It makes no sense to me to entirely neglect 50% of your player base for 4 years, entirely ignoring them and giving them no content while simultaneously spending time adding and then removing scratches from glass and other frivolous cosmetic stuff. I know a hell of a lot of players that want to once again play this game but its entirely hard to convince them when you have to admit to them that yes nothing has really changed in 4 years..
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  2. Jacmac Apprentice Engineer

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    273
    Seems to me that mods could be made to address all of your concerns. This is a sandbox/survival game first, with PvP or PvE as secondary. I think you points about radar are somewhat valid as are lack of alternative weapons, but ultimately the simulator itself has to function at a high level before serious PvP could be a consideration. Also, with players being offline for long periods, bases generally get wrecked when found, then the players quit the server. Giving players radar to help locate these bases is just adding to the problem.
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  3. Spamasaurus Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    16
    The way to promote PVP is to have a small world less than 500km wide and to place asteroids in clusters manually. As for weapons there's plenty of well made mods to choose from and scripts for drones and guided missiles. If more admins followed these guidelines we'd have a lot more decent PVP servers to play on but unfortunately most 'pvp' servers are just infinite worlds with no additional effort given.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  4. PLPM Junior Engineer

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    843
    The weapons and our means of waging effective war are extremely taxing, if we could have a large gun that has the output of 5 missile turrets with x100 less projectiles and explosions, It`d be extremely good for having a less jagged experience, but combat right now means, too many, too much right now. The combat is simply not optimized to be both fun or a smooth experience.

    Spamming is encouraged by the base game.
     
  5. Bullet_Force Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    357
    One of the best PVP experiences I have had in this game was playing on a server called "Lawless PVP" for a few months which had a world size of 50km with resource asteroids clustered in the middle. It was great fun. It is indeed a shame that most so called PVP servers are anything but. They either have some gigantic world size or have thousands of rules which it make impossible to actually fight other players.
     
  6. halipatsui Senior Engineer

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    1,253
    Also it is quite possible pvp / pve / survival overall will be finalized later when they get other systems like multiplayer seved together.

    They just have more urgent matyers ar hand. Still i dont know if actual new weapon blocks are goig to come
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. Bullet_Force Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    357
    Yet they somehow manage to find the time to add cosmetic blocks and change the appearance of blocks? They have potentially one of the best PVP games on Steam and yet that side of the game is entirely neglected. Such a waste.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. Malware Master Engineer

    Messages:
    9,663
    PVP players have no more or less reason to feel neglected than any but pure sandbox players. There isn't any true gameplay one way or another yet. They clearly want the technical aspects out of the way first, and yes, that does include basic appearance, because that's rendering.

    (Whether or not we agree with that appearance, well... that's a whole other story)
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  9. halipatsui Senior Engineer

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    1,253

    Artists are the ones working on the visuals. Visuals overall are also more fundamental part of the game since it affects nlt only every single player but also their marketing (altough pvp would too).

    More fundamental is more urgent
     
  10. Dragonspride Apprentice Engineer

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    460
    I think everyone feels neglected. Still waiting on compound blocks.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
  11. Malware Master Engineer

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    9,663
    Yeah well that has been thoroughly rejected. Multiple times. There will not be any compound blocks so no point in waiting for them.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  12. Timuroslav Apprentice Engineer

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    173
    My interpretations on this problem is kind of complicated.
    The last two quarters of 2017 so some Great Space Master improvements. It has become a lot easier to space admin Space Engineers.

    But, then why are people not playing Multiplayer?
    My hypothesis.

    -Place style, when everyone is afraid of griefing, their natural defense is to go full space nomad and hide. People spread out on Infinite servers, there fore to make a popular multiplayer server you have to make it small ish.
    -Griefing can't be tracked. Once some one does it, some one else loses hours maybe even a weeks worth of work on a 1x inventory 1x refinery server.
    What can the administrator do about it? Nothing all they can do is replace the damage, they can't track the grids of who altered what. There is no trash can to go through.
    -Bored players result to griefing to spark combat, but their raids are too effective, resulting in people quitting.

    -Space Masters either don't log in enough or don't do their job. Being an a server Admin is a lot like having a part time job as a baby sitter. People will log in and friend their favorite Admin, but the Admin has to stay active.
    There also needs to be a team of part time Admins otherwise when one Admin gets busy people just quit.
    -A Space Master/Admin can't perma protect anything... We need mods to protect our spawn zone.

    -If you're a young adult with a child, you're just not gonna put in the hours of some one who is retired, had kids. Which means your core group of players are High Schoolers, Young Adults, and Retired folks.

    Basically, I see it more as a trust issue, if you believe in your Space Master, Admin, that will draw you to play the game.
    People browse search lists just to see if people are on the server, but once they log on they're terrified of trusting other non Admin players. So they hide.

    just a couple ideas.
    Space Master Beacons, cause a grid to be invincible. Docked grids are also invincible.
    Hostile Sector Beacon, allows weapons to be fired where the signal is reachable. Once the signal is left all weapons become defunct.

    and Don't give me that "Your problems are fixed by mods B.S." A lot of theses mods are poorly optimized even one of my favorite mods. Security Beacon, cause quite a bit of lag on our server.

    It's really just a lot of little reasons.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018
    • Like Like x 1
  13. tankmayvin Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,863
    Both PVE and PVP are basically non-existent which is shame given how strong the core game mechanics are.

    I really hope they start working on things that make playing the game enjoyable, instead of making graphics tweaks.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  14. doncdxx Apprentice Engineer

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    419
    I just don't see SE being a good Survival PvP game.

    I expect PvP to really get interesting as the campaign tools get more complete.
     
  15. Dax23333 Junior Engineer

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    657
    I think a lot of the problem is the extremely high damage taken in combat, with ships having to be completly obliterated to disable them properly. If there is anything left it is quite likely still shooting you, or running away. So quick to destroy but takes so so long to make, and so many recources. This is to be fair largely unavoidable in PvP.

    Some other things that may be driving people away from multiplayer:
    -If everyone goes and hides it is basically the same as singleplayer but with paranoia.
    -Scary netcode making people worried that it'll break thier stuff randomly. Wether it actually can or not is besides the point, if people think it will it'll drive them away.
    -And of course the big vicous circle. Nobody wants to join a server with nobody on it.

    I can't say i'm a fan of these free for all pvp survival servers, but naturally somewhere to try out all the ships would be nice. I remember a few months back Xocliw showcased a mod (by rexxar I think) on his stream which enabled a server to have a lobby world where people could load in/build ships, then load them into another world to have a big fight. Then back to the lobby, pick a new ship and do it all over again. That kinda thing I would like - PvP but without weeks of work going up in smoke. This, and other minigames like racing or time limited build offs like scrapheap challanges and probably a bunch more things, now that would be really cool.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  16. Audiacious Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    47
    They do have radar in the game, not directly, but it is there. There is a 2d/3d lidar script that runs off of Raycast. I use it in all of my current ships, and it has a 9km range at most currently. I would be nice to have more of a range however. As for weapons, I've said it before I'd love to have a weapon building system like they have in From The Depths where you can custom make turrets including the ammo in them.
     
  17. doncdxx Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    419
    I think people approach the idea of PvP in SE survival in a completely wrong way.

    What people think SE PvP is going to be like:

    It's epic, it's amazing, it just doesn't happen this way 99% of the time.




    In my experience, this is more accurate:

    It's cautious, well planned, and still requires improvisation and repairs/modifications until the last second.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  18. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    4,845
    My experience with PvP in the last four years:

    1. Spend days or weeks setting up an interesting server.
    2. Spend days or weeks try to get the server to run correctly between testing and adapting to new bugs.
    3. Promote server and spend at least an hour every day managing it.
    4. Wait for multiplayer bug to come down that decimates the server: exploit, inability to mine, operate vehicles, glitch the light fantastic.
    5. Watch server player dwindle to zero.
    6. Wipe server.

    The set-up time is the killer... want your own custom drones, cargo ships, encounter ships? Besides building them, it takes ages to program in the CORRECT XML data and then test the game to see if things are spawning properly. Most documentation doesn't exist or is severely outdated.

    There's no way to use procedural generation other than everywhere or nowhere. So if you want to discriminate where asteroids are or aren't... get ready to place them all by hand as well as manually placing any elements in them (iron, gold, etc.).

    Just to get a planetary lander to spawn in the right place over a planet is a lot of trial and error due to poor documentation.

    I think if Keen was to set up and maintain official servers they might learn something about their own game.
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
  19. Timuroslav Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    173
    Couldn't have said it better myself.
    Only thing I would add is the ability to add a permanent indestructible station, and alteration log of who logged in and what grid was changed.
     
  20. Audiacious Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    47
    I use the corruption mod and a cleanup tool on my server. I also have it set to auto update and restart daily to refresh the server. It runs well for now, but it's only me lol.
     
  21. Timuroslav Apprentice Engineer

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    173
    Do you have a link to the cleanup tool?
     
  22. Audiacious Trainee Engineer

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    47
    Not off the top of my head but if you're on SE check for the "Outcast Lounge" server it's listed as a mod
     
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  23. jonesskill Trainee Engineer

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    15
    Are compound blocks like blocks that absorb impacts?
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  24. Audiacious Trainee Engineer

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    47
    No it's allowing multiple blocks to be built in a single space. An LCD for example cornered with another one in a single block. Keen has implemented it in medieval engineers but not space
     
  25. suicideneil Apprentice Engineer

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    227
    No, compound blocks is simply two blocks that inhabit the same space at the same time, on the same grid- such as having a passenger seat with an interior light directly above it ( room is one block tall so to speak ). That would make those blocks compound blocks- right now we can't do things like that, one block, one cube of building space.
     
  26. tankmayvin Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,863
    In my experience, PVP involves losing everything in a physics related fubar and rage quitting.

    Or getting smurfed while you are AFK, or blasted by a PMW when you have no idea when its coming because there isn't real sensing.

    Or doing the same thing to other players, which is hilarious but actually gets boring kinda quick.

    Or firing at each other with thousands of rounds of gatfire and rockets but nobody hitting anything because both ships have great acceleration and trying to hit stuff with 200 m/s closing with bullets that travel that speed AND without any meaningful targeting system is basically impossible. Dogfights and the like just aren't fun. And that's ignoring latency issues.

    Conventional fights with large capships, where they blast each other all to hell with rockets are about as dynamic as tick-tac-toe. The person with the most turrets wins, but practically any ship can jump away without getting meanigfully damaged since turrets are squishy but ships themselves are not.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  27. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    1,598
    Personally, I never wait for anything. I play with what’s available and don’t sit around tapping my virtual foot waiting for something that I believe should be available to be available. It is what it is.
     
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    • Agree Agree x 1
  28. Audiacious Trainee Engineer

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    47
    have you tried using a lidar script?? while not long range, 9km range does give you a little heads up
     
  29. tankmayvin Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,863
    I have but not in PVP. Raycasting is a relatively new thing for SE. It came out around when I got bored of trying PVP and Keen physics changes kept undoing all of my PMW development. So I kinda quit.

    How expensive is the sim-speed load from heavy raycasting calls? If a ton of players load expensive scripts it can slow things to a crawl. Inventory management scripts on bit enough networks of grids can do that easily for eg.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  30. Malware Master Engineer

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    9,663
    Samme thing applies here but not quite to the same extent. The raycast does not synchronize anything, and it's restricted /designed for scripting use as opposed to the inventory API, so it's better... but it can still be abused. By people adding a sh*tload of cameras to fire more rays for example. That might perhaps be mitigated by the block limit system...?
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
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