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PVP Players Feel Neglected

Discussion in 'General' started by Bullet_Force, Feb 9, 2018.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    4,955

    I think a global raycast limit per player would be a better solution. The limit would work the same: based on frequency and the distance of the raycast. This would be helpful in multiplayer servers as well. We already can query how many cameras a player owns. A global cool-down period for the player would be relatively easy to achieve. Granted, it should be an OPTION for server operators to set the frequency or turn this on or off.
     
  2. Malware Master Engineer

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    9,861
    I'm not talking about how it should be, I'm talking about how it is ;) Probability of change is... well, just forget about it.
     
  3. Dax23333 Junior Engineer

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    657
    Even if you spam cameras like nobody has ever seen you're still relying on hitting a tiny object very far away. Something a few metres wide in a bubble many kilometers in radius. And you have not got long to pick it up, and even if you do can you move from whatever you were doing to a pilot seat and jump outta there in time? Its gonna be tricky at the very least even if you can detect them. And a lot of the time the first warning you'll get will be when the turrets (fruitlessly) open fire at which point you have 8 seconds until impact.
     
  4. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    4,955

    Yes... Keen adds a feature, doesn't fully incorporate it, then moves on to something else leaving the feature only half-baked.
     
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  5. Calaban Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    994
    My previous experience in several pvp servers, and the cause of those server populations' particular demise, is a good indicator of the multiplayer meta of SE, and its inevitable trend towards a ghost town.

    The simplest way to state the problem is: PvP is degraded to PvAP: player vs away player. Players who cry loudest for more PvP seem to really be crying for more content... to attack, sabotage, and troll when the actual owner who spent time making that content is logged off.

    Two examples of servers I was a member of, and how they died:

    One was setup as a ” faction war" sort of PvP. Each player had to be in a faction, and that faction puplicly declares their ”homeworld” all Earth's were supposed to be allied and were not allowed to war on each other, but any Mars or alien factions were fair game. Was a good idea- organized wars (requiring jumpdrives)and co operative play at same time.... But then there was the ”pirate” faction option.. where the faction declared pirate and was able to attack, and be attacked, by anybody. So guess what all the players with grid finding raycast scripts chose to be? They had zero intention of fights with anyone online, only to scout out newbie co-op bases and stations, then Raid them when no one was there. Like a cancerous tumor, all interest in building an "earth alliance” of co operation multi faction trading and dealing was killed, and the players left in disappointed disgust. PvAP killed it. I miss that place.

    The other one died because of "grandfather bullying" where players already established and geared for war preyed upon the atmosphere Landers with only day 1 resources. The Earth world was supposed to be ”starters only” so new members could buildup in relative security. Psh. It soon became apparent that the top 2 players who were always on spent their time keeping everyone else down and respawn- starting over. After it became apparent what was going on.. another PvP ghost town.

    It's kind of sad. The Troll PvAP player subtype worst of human nature is the biggest cause of no pvp. In both of those creative server setups to foster a community and collaborative pvp play which on paper both sounded amazing, the cancer ate them out from the inside and they are both very, very dead.

    If dedicated space engineers servers can figure out a way for logging off to NOT be like A.R.K, that would help.

    Another option for PvP, that is revealing in the PvAP nature currently in the meta, is to have small map warzones with weekly or semi daily resets, so things never shift too far to any particular "Victor".. and the result is a constant war of equal " just starters"... But the way those kind of servers are never populated reveals that pvp'ers have no real interest for man to man battles, but want to sneak, and steal, and grow to unstoppable power trolling instead. Hmph.
     
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  6. Dax23333 Junior Engineer

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    657
    Not sure if this is exactly what you meant, but I think a battle royale game in SE could be pretty good. Like Pubg or Minecraft UHC (As I have only played the 2nd I will use that as an example). Drop into a map, no health regeneration and last one standing wins. Shrink border of map to squash players in after a period of time and then fight!

    This, in SE, would be something very interesting to do. Start with very little and gear up (build your ship) until you think you can take on others. If you die, there is always next game and you do not expect to your stuff to have any sort of permenace so are not as dissapointed when your stuff gets destroyed. And since the game lasts a few hours at most you can expect to be there the whole time, so no PvAP garbage. Can throw teams into the mix as well.
     
  7. Malware Master Engineer

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    9,861
    Except this one is fully incorporated. It's quite configurable for server owners, they can even mod it completely away - or seriously nerf it - or seriously OP it. People should also be happy it's there at all, it was only added because an accidentally added method earlier was removed - rightfully so - and Keen is afraid to break scripts, even when there's good reason so rexxar added the raycast. If it were up to me there wouldn't have been a raycaster either.
     
  8. halipatsui Senior Engineer

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    1,253

    Your grandfather example is excatly why we never must have radars.

    Maybe as singular gamemode like drop dead arena or as a scenario but not primary game mode.
    SE is a bit too slow game imo to fundamentally work like that.
     
  9. tankmayvin Senior Engineer

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    2,864
    This has been my experience as well.

    But here is the thing. SE has an element of realism to it in that resources are somewhat finite in that it takes TIME to acquire them, time being the most important of resources. Equally realistic is the fact that head on engagements are risky, even with material superiority. Lucky hits happen, glitches happen. Hitting things that are moving and fighting back is really hard with dumb weapons, etc.

    Both of these things combine to make it so that if you want to fight, you never, ever, ever want to fight fairly. Just like IRL. And so people don't.

    The problem is that there just isn't anything to the PVP meta beyond dirty fighting because there is no meat to the game in terms of trading, power etc. Basically it's not EVEonline.

    Until you give reason for people to not snipe at each other with pmws, that's all you're going to have in PVP.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. PLPM Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    850
    Saying no to radars is ridiculous.

    Because what we have now is hide and seek, and that`s it. Its true that with radars it is still hide and seek, but we`d have more tools and ways to make it dynamic, either hiding your heat signatures to minimize profile or booting all your blocks on and maximize production, it`d be a risk-reward system.

    If you stablished a perimeter that warned and protected your main base, you could have your outposts lying low while your main base is churring out stuff, sure, it`d be a bright light in the void, but you can afford the visibility.
     
  11. halipatsui Senior Engineer

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    1,253

    You cant afford visibility because engineer with jetpack, drill and grinder can attack your base in every single angle most likely finding a loophole when you are not protecting your stuff.

    Or turret snipe all your turrets from 810 meters away. Out of your turret range.

    He might have to sacrifice few engineer bodies until he gets to shut your base down but it wont take that long for a experienced player.


    With radar:
    The grandfather scenario becomes even more heavily favored towards the old player.

    He will see other players when they are just about to touch ground without even needing to search for them. Catching them on their knees and pants down. Never even giving them a chance.
    Imagine playing moba with opponent having 2 item advantage and wallhack. Thats what it would be like.

    Key imo is to have something worth fighting/competing for and let playing cycle around that.

    You can try to fortify this magnificent thing but then you have to deal with defending it.
    Otherwise you can hide and try to gnaw at this objective by different tactics.

    Maybe somekind of score system with rewards?
    Most dominant player is the leader and other can try to challenge his position
    But thats just my opinion
     
  12. tankmayvin Senior Engineer

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    2,864
    Radar should be cheap enough, or have enough overhead that the beginning player can have decent coverage.

    Infinite free respawns with tools and that sort of smurfing aren't a justification for why things should be a certain way, they are evidence that PVP meta is kinda trash. Suicidal throaway avatars is only mildy better than just spamming respawn ships as pmws.
     
  13. Dax23333 Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    657
    Yeah definatly as a single game mode. Space Engineers can do so much more than that it would be a waste not to. You raise a good point about speed though. Other games of this kind in my experience typically aim to last about an hour, and in an hour in Space Engineers you can't really do that much. I'd assume everybody would start out in a small starter ship with materials for a refinery (or a refinery) in it, and then go from there. But in an hour you'd likely end up with upgraded starter ships almost all of the time, rather than custom built ships for it. Would be interesting with drones - you can attack someone safely, but give away your position to everyone nearby in the process. Respawn ship ramming would also not be an issue as you'd kill yourself in the process and then lose.

    Any radar implementation that eases stomping of not developed players is a flat out terrible idea. Not just bad, monumentally terrible. You don't put greifing tools into your game if you want any resemblence of good multiplayer. A lot of the people calling for it I would put squarely into the greifer box, they're not wanting PvP they're wanting to stomp somebody with no hope of fighting back.

    This really shouldn't be possible I think. No way should an astronaught be able to weave past multiple gatling and interior turrets of bullet wall to take down the fortress with just a hand grinder. Its a balance issue more than anything else but as it stands you can't expect a base to stand up to an assualt from even a single person with a grinder and that sucks.
     
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  14. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    4,955
    You've explained the history and lore of a feature. But that doesn't answer the the question of features only getting half-baked, respectfully.
     
  15. Malware Master Engineer

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    9,861
    Because I'm speaking only of "the history and lore of a feature". And it would be very difficult for me not to interpret your comment as an indication you believed this one was one of those half-baked features, so I answered about that one because this is one I know the answer to. I'm not defending all the features. I'm defending one (if defending is even the right word here). Please don't make this more complicated than it needs to be :)
     
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  16. halipatsui Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,253

    I think grinder infiltration should be possible if station builder has made mistakes.
    Current situation is that there is no risk involved in attacking with grinder only. You just spawn again until you get trough from somewhere. Or bounce around until base runs out of ammo.
    Now it is quite hard to make a base that could withstand a player attack alone for a significant amount of time.
    Turret sniping is simply too easy.


    What if missile turret would shoot homing missiles for range of 1000 meters if it was located in a station instead if ship?
    --- Automerge ---
    Keen should also decide what is the cost of death.

    Taking your heavy gear with you should be to keep you alive.

    Now the situation is that you leave them home and dig/grind away because there is absolutedly no punishment for dying.

    I think increasing spawn time each time you die would be good punishment.

    Along with ability to "buy" the time shorter in dire situations. For example when your base is being attacked you could throw 100 kg(just an example) of uranium to the medical room to materialize yourself faster. Anyway the cost should be fairly high so it would only be used when players prospers-> he has earned the luxury or he has to do it in order to survive.

    This would significantly slow down griefers making griefing a lot more boring.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    4,955
    Dying in the vanilla game comes at no cost. If you spawn with tools, it's actually a benefit.

    They could require that a medical room require a special consumable component to spawn a player... much like the parachute in the parachute block. If you respawn, you use one of these components. This would make the cryo chamber actually useful. It would also make using the medical room as a poor man's transporter costly... as well as spam respawning in order to drain a base's defenses.

    Again... it's about developing the GAME PLAY... as I said... is only half-baked at this point.
     
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  18. PLPM Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    850
    In general spawning starting players in a planetary lander all the time by force is stupid. Not by it itself, but because you become a fish in a barrel, in ANY scenario, you`re simply too limited, can`t wander too far from your base, it simply is a terrible situation to be in, yes it gets worse with radars, but that`s the nature of the game, radars won`t magically fix the game, there are still a lot of things to change.

    Making resources more plentiful near the center is a good idea, but as long as hiding is more rewarding and less punishing, well, hiding will be the go-to tactic.
     
  19. tankmayvin Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,864
    After a while though, almost everything gets cheap in SE.
    --- Automerge ---
    The planetary start is IMO the worst aspect of the whole survival meta, PVP or otherwise.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  20. Calaban Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    994
    Best idea I had to counter the PvAP meta, yet still have a reasonable scale of conflict, as well as keep grandfather griefers from travelling and, AS WELL AS encourage player cooperation all in one fell swoop is.. well, rather scary server setting.

    Its open for discussion in this topic:
    https://forum.keenswh.com/threads/mp-server-player-limiting-idea-medbays.7400298/

    But is summed up very simply: Block restriction- Just. One. Medbay. and permanent death wiping your gps marks if no spawn available.

    :eek: I know kinda scary sounding, but think about it for a minute or twenty:
    -- It gives us that much desired cost for death- and eliminates "respawn avatar over and over as a tactic" abuse -resulting in better turret effectiveness
    -- how would travel and scout other planets/moons be much different now (go abroad without respawn or take it with you and leave base unvisitable?)
    -- how would approach a hostile base without a respawn handy change things
    -- how big of a personal fleet you would want to bother having now (less strain on the server)
    -- how you would want freindly relations with other players, for community "teleport" and planet spawn-travel networks.

    Sure there are drawbacks, and maybe problems to be discovered and discussed, but I think its worth a try by some intrepid Admin. I would sign in. :)
     
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  21. Taemien Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    468
    The scale of size and distance of the map is what is killing PVP.

    In Conan Exiles, the map is about 53km^2. In Empyrion a playfield on planet is about 32km^2. CE has a larger play area due to it being scaled to walking speed. Empyion has a max speed of 40m/s vs SE's 100m/s. Yet the area of a planet in SE is quite larger.

    And then there is space which is very very large. And as others pointed out, its just hide and seek, and PVPa at that point.

    First thing that needs addressing is people losing stuff when they are offline. There's a few ways to address this.

    Conan Exiles simply turns off PVP during 'off hours' which means everyone knows when things will open up and some interesting fights and raids can happen right at scheduled times. Of course if you're not present, you risk losing everything. And then there is a time zone difference that can hurt players. The benefits though is that everyone PVPs at the same time. If you're on during those times.

    Empyrion uses offline protection as a block that can be built on a base or large ship. It activates protection once the owner has been offline for a time set by the server. I think its 2 minutes by default. It makes the attached structures invulnerable to fire and turrets have infinite ammo to discourage scouters. The benefit is you only ever have to defend your stuff while online. The downside is if players log in at different times, PVP won't happen.

    IMO Empyrion's method would work better for Space Engineers. The reason for this is you can implement a method with attributes that govern how long you have to be offline and can even have a server setting that limits how many offline protections a single owner can have. One of the other downsides of offline protection is a player can expand over a large area and then limit what others can do while he's offline. SE doesn't actually have an issue with players taking large areas and denying stuff due to the scale of SE. But servers may run custom maps and the like so this would aid with that.

    SE would need to adjust how ownership works so that faction owned stuff only activates protection when all members are offline and you cannot switch ownership back to an individual. This is obviously to prevent exploiting.

    That solves one issue, and arguably its the smaller of the two. The other is if players are online, at the same time... how to find one another?

    In other games, you may simply scout around. In SE.. that's daunting.

    Some have suggested Radar/Sensors.

    How they are implemented could be one of two extremes. First one is you still have a ton of space to cover.. and lets say you had a 25km range radar... You could easily pass someone slightly off the beaten path between planets. And if radar was too much then there's not much point in hiding.

    Hiding ought to be a valid tactic, it allows players to get setup. Getting established should be struggle, but not impossible.

    However with enough effort.. a player looking for another player ought to be possible too.

    A paradoxical problem to say the least.
     
  22. KissSh0t Master Engineer

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    3,765
    PVP exists... I'm still waiting for PVE since AI was teased back in 2014.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2018
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  23. halipatsui Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,253
    Btw also disabling jetpacks makes griefing ALOT harder. It even forces you to engineer yourself some welding craft.

    Having no jetpack pvp server could also promote vehicle usage overall.

    Underground bunkers would also bevome more powerful when you cant just dig in and expect to move as you wish vertically while inside.


    But is anyone brave enough to play without jetpacks? They could very well make playing a lot slower.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  24. SoftwareEngineer42 Trainee Engineer

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    10
    I'm new and content to experiment in creative and mess around in survival alone, especially when everyone talks about how MP is broken, but what about implementing a scarce component that cannot be manufactured which is fundamentally necessary for play?

    Say some NPC ships are derelict alien craft and have, oh I don't know, Xanorian Power Relays or something and those are a vital secondary consumable in O2 generators. The details aren't super important for discussion; basically what if there were components that everyone needs but cannot be manufactured, only stolen. I don't know if you can mod in a component with a null recipe, but if you can, such a mod would be useful for PVP motivation, combined with extra NPC ships that have said component.

    In addition to map size because y'all know better than me on that topic.
     
  25. halipatsui Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,253

    Something absolutedly essential should not be totally deniable from new players that cannot combat established ones.
    Imo luxury items like powerful weapon materials, gravity manipulation materials, jump drive materials, upgraade module materials could all be tied to some resource to compete from.
    Not essential, but very nice luxury.
     
  26. TangentialThreat Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    5
    You're doing it wrong.

    Everyone wants SE to be a natural survival sandbox PVP experience. This is a terrible platform for doing that. Stop wanting that, it's a terrible genre anyway.

    What you can do with SE is objective-based PVP. It is (barely) stable enough for things like king of the hill. The Last Bastion is a PVP server with a complex and rewarding ruleset that amounts to DIY king of the hill on a small map with concentrated scarce resources. It relies on modded invulnerable blocks for the central bases that generate points, and has and rules against offline raiding of a faction's (limited) home base. Basically sandbox PVP but with some sanity checks.

    The second greatest service Keen could do for TLB besides game stability would be an option for selective admin-designated invincibility and nondeformability of blocks and voxels.

    Let server admins easily designate trade hubs and goalposts, and the players will build a fun game. This request makes more sense if you understand that unlike most PVP servers we manage to have enough constant shooting to erode the base asteroid and occasionally break the allegedly indestructible modded blocks.

    Also for Nye's sake smooth voxel damage with LOD instead of exaggerating it. Right now even the tiniest dent in the voxel sphere is visible from space. This is one of the methods griefers are using to find all your bases.
     
  27. SoftwareEngineer42 Trainee Engineer

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    10
    I hadn't considered the potential for players cornering the market and excluding green players. Luxuries being tied to economic scarcity is indeed better.
     
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  28. SpecFrigateBLK3 Senior Engineer

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    1,133
    Agreed. Every time I hear someone complain about not finding people, it's about people who have jumped out far away. People jump out to avoid being trolled. I at least tend to spend online time near planets and moons, though that's mostly for the challenge of engineering a base with wheels and thrusters for all environments.
    This is why I ALWAYS start with a space start on multiplayer. Yes, it can be tricky to break gravity, but still possible if you're smart with your power.
    I can roll with this. Is this possible using the current block limit system? Or a mod?
     
  29. halipatsui Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,253
    I would also like to tell about good form of pvp me and my friend sometimes play.

    First we fibd a site for "war"
    We have hour or 2 prep time in creative with some set of rules and limitations(turrets usually) to what we can build.
    After building these crafts and bases etc we can switch to survival to actually battle each other.

    I have noticed it is quite a nice form of pvp that

    Does not take weeks of play to set up

    Fun

    Active, lots of stuff to do. No weeks of looking for other players.

    Measures ability to engineer.

    No one ragequits due to months of work vanishing to thin air.

    Allows using quite complex structures for fights.

    Which kinda mitigates many of traditional pvp problems.

    Im not sure if pvp players like this kind of approach but it is good to remember that pvp can be played in VERY many ways.
    Our current "meta" just seems to be a bit problematic.

    I could personally see server with 2 hours of prep in creative 2 hours of war in survival being quite possible concept.

    What you guys think about something like that?
    --- Automerge ---
    I add to this that your base does not get looted while you are afk
     
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  30. Taemien Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    468
    A bold statement, and one I doubt you could back up.
     
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