Welcome to Keen Software House Forums! Log in or Sign up to interact with the KSH community.
  1. You are currently browsing our forum as a guest. Create your own forum account to access all forum functionality.

PVP Talk

Discussion in 'General' started by Bullet_Force, Sep 8, 2019.

  1. Bullet_Force Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    347
    With whispers floating around that the next big Space Engineers update will be the much awaited and long overdue PVP Update, I would like to discuss the current state of the PVP game and what could be improved going forward.

    As a veteran PVP player I feel there are a few pressing PVP issues that need to be addressed by the developers.

    The first issue is the most obvious, the new shield system added to the game completely breaks PVP and cannot be countered in any form once activated. I would like to see this given at least a health bar, or only allow it to auto activated 15 minutes after the last faction member logs off.

    The second of which is Grav Drives. These things effectively break the balance of the game with regards to ship weight and thrust. They give enormous thrust for little cost and even allow very large ships to move about very fast. They do have some drawbacks but not enough for most players not to use them. I feel it's time for the Grav Drive era to come to an end, make it so that gravity generators cannot act upon mass blocks built on the same grid. This would solve the issue of Grav Drives while still allowing gravity propelled missiles.

    An additional issue is Jump Drives. These blocks allow players to jump around the map which is fine but in PVP they also allow for players to constantly escape during battle. There currently is no counter to these other then to destroy half the enemy ship to disable them all of which has to happen within a very short period of time. I would like to see a new block introduced called a Warp Inhibitor. It would be similar to how a spherical gravity generator works in that it would create a large sphere around it except in this case anything inside that sphere would not be able to use their warp drive. Make it expensive, use a lot of power and large say 3x3x3 ie same size as a large reactor to balance it.

    Another problem is Medbays and constant respawning of players. Currently it's free to spawn at medbays, you can die as many times as you want (on non hardcore mode) and it doesn't cost you anything. This creates a problem in PVP as a raiding faction can constantly fly in with suits to attack over and over to wear down the base ammo and slowly cripple the base, while effectively costing them nothing. The recent update made this issue worse by allowing small ships to also now mount medbays. I think a good solution to this would be to add a new component say call it "Biochips" that are consumed everytime someone spawns. If a medbay has no Biochips then it cannot be spawned at. The biochips should be moderately costly but not too expensive.

    The alternative solution to this would be add to spawn times. In other games for instance such as ARK, if a player dies to the same faction the time for them to spawn goes up. This was added to prevent naked people doing suicide attacks on bases over and over and would also work well in this game.
     
  2. Thrak Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    535
    In past streams, Xoc has talked about updates to economy and weapons, not necessarily PVP. I actually hope the focus is more on PVE (and finally fixing some odd turret behavior in general).

    Your first three points could be read as, "I am frustrated that people who don't want to fight me can get away." Just sayin'.

    Your fourth point, about medbays... can't the respawn delay be changed in world settings? And if you're so concerned that Zone Chips aren't enough to reasonably limit the safe zone shield thing, how are "biochips" any better?
     
  3. Lord Grey Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    344
    The spawn time setting in the world setting only affect the spawnships, Medbays and Survival Kits aren't affected, there it's only if they have power or not.

    And there is already a YouTube Video how to disable or circumvent the safe zones. So Bullet_Force, I can't fight the feeling you just want bash some easy Prey and don't realy put efford into your Warfare. Griefer is an other word for such Players.
     
  4. Thrak Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    535
    Thanks for the info. Did not know that!
     
  5. KissSh0t Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,496
    Absolutely this, the game has PVP for years, as someone who does not play multiplayer I've felt disappointed since Keen shifted focus to "skins" as paid DLC for multiplayer with me being like wtf the game is empty....

    The new Economy update is basically the first update to have made the game actually really fun to play, prior to that I hadn't really played SE for about a year, just watching the forum, the game still lacks what I would consider NPC, although the empty ships that move around looks to be a first implementation of a larger AI system, if those ships get NPC characters added to them I feel like that would be a good step in the right direction.

    It would be pretty awesome to see other Space Engineers in a singleplayer game and be able to interact with those NPC characters in various ways whether it be friend or foe.

    Heck, I'm still waiting for a reload animation for the player held weapons to be implemented, maybe that will be a part of the "Weapons" update?
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2019
  6. captainbladej52 Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    374
    I'm going to repeat what I said in the other thread, I find it ironic Keen chose a block like the safe zone when they said they didn't want to add shields in the past. I do wish they had chosen another system but I don't fault them for going with what was the easiest solution and gives people more blocks to play with. The safe zone blocks were NOT made with pvp in mind as not every block needs to cater to pvp or be built with pvp in mind. The safe zone was meant to be a deterrent to "that one guy" who always tries to ruin it for everyone else, and in this case would just roll around destroying the npc stations so no one could interact with them. The safe zone is meant to be an anti-griefing tool and also has a 30 second charge time to activate, so it's highly impractical. It also requires uncraftable zone chips that can only be traded for in order to stay operational, as well as requiring massive amounts of power. You claimed previously that you weren't interested in raiding people while they were offline, yet asking for a 15 minute window of them being offline before their safe zone can activate is exactly why I don't believe you in that regard. Your first point here just screams "I don't like this mechanic I have to play around that prevents me from raiding them while they're offline, please nerf it and let me pillage them while they're unable to fight back." Yeah sorry but this is a hard pass from me. The safe zone is meant to guarantee people can interact with the economy stations and such without someone being a douche and just nuking all the stations purely because. As far as it being countered, turn it off for your server(s) if you don't like folks using it. The block shouldn't have to be changed just because one tiny minority of "sup3r l33t harcor3 pvp" people don't like it. You already have a solution in front of you.

    I agree on this one that grav drives need to go the way of the dodo and stop existing, but not for any type of pvp reason, but purely because it's already been acknowledged as an exploit. It's for that reason alone I think grav drives need to be removed.

    Roughly translated "I don't like that people can hit their jump drives and escape instead of letting me kill them. Please make it so they can't get away." Jump drives are fine the way they are and are a legitimate item that can be used in a pvp situation. Why am I going to sit there and let some guy destroy my everything when I can hit the jump drive and at least salvage what's left of my ship? Simply creating the block and making the same size as a large reactor does NOT balance the block. All you've done is make it require alot of space. Still you would need to answer several questions. First, how much power would the block require to stay active? How many of each component would it take to build? Would there be any sort of charge up? What if part of a grid is inside the inhibitor field but part of it is not, and the part that isn't contains a working jump drive. Would that drive be able to be engaged, and if the answer is no, why would it not be able to since it's outside the field? How large would the inhibitor field be? There's much more to balance than strictly the physical size of the block itself. For me though this is again going to be a hard pass.

    You can already adjust the spawn timings server side and such. Allowing small grid ships to mount med bays is a new one on me. With that said your "biochip" function is no different than zone chips and would render the med bay block completely useless. Furthermore, what happens if heaven forbid someone dies just doing regular stuff, such as running out of oxygen, and their med bay has no biochips? Does that person have to just pray that when they respawn it puts them next to their base, do they have to start over, or what happens to them? This can be settled easily enough by just adding a timer before someone can spawn again. Could be as little as a few sections, to 5000 years if you wanted. Once again, the biochips idea is a hard pass from me as it defeats the purpose of even having a med bay to start with. Again the med bay was NOT designed with pvp in mind.


    Overall you're entitled to believe whatever you will about the state of things for SE pvp scene, but as I said in the other thread, you've still not defined for us what "true pvp" actually is or so on. You've done little more than just spout things you want to see changed without giving adequate reasons as to why it should be changed. You say it ruins pvp and is not true pvp, yet you never define what that is. Thus I can only conclude based off statements you've made elsewhere, that it's your own subjective opinion and not a concrete definition. It's also a safe conclusion that you just want to grief and destroy people's stuff while they're not online, and the safe zone is preventing you from doing that, thus you want it changed. So aside from removing gravity drives for being an exploit, everything else is a hard pass from me.
     
  7. Bullet_Force Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    347
    No my point about jump drives relates to how their is currently no proper counter play other then destroying a large amount of their ship to hopefully damage the jump drive. It's too easy at the moment to skip PVP by using a jump drive.
     
  8. Lord Grey Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    344
    How so? The med bay is still the fastest method to recharge energy and costs only a part of the pcu of a survival kit. The Survival kit is the small grid respawn point, even it was labeled a medbay by Bullet_Force.
    You really try to force the game your way of gaming. I just used a ship to engage a large pirate ship. One pass-by and the schip was only junk metal and lose blocks. Didn't take more than 10 sekunds... OK, my ship is fast and has more than 20 guns and one missile launcher, but it is possible if you really want destruction and not disabling for resources...
     
  9. Bullet_Force Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    347
    Your pirate ship was probably made out of plaster/light armor. My point with the jump drives is if you play on a PVP you should expect regular PVP, I am not talking players on PVE servers.
     
  10. captainbladej52 Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    374
    Before the survival kit existed there was only the medbay that one could respawn at, as far as dedicated spawn point blocks in the vanilla game. It wasn't until the survival kit came along that we got an all in one assembler, refinary, medbay, and recharge station. Now the medbay serves as a dedicated spawn point, a place you can color your suit/change it, and much faster recharge station. Anyways the chief purpose of the medbay and one of the chief purposes of the survival kit are serving as respawn points. adding some kind of "biochip" cost to them essentially nullifies them and makes them little more than glorified charging stations. At that point we might as well just add an additional interaction to the reactor, as well as hydrogen and oxygen tanks and call it a day. The other question I asked was if/when the someone were to die with no biochips available, and pvp is not going on, what happens to the guy? Does he just have to hit a respawn ship and pray he lands near his stuff? Does he lose everything and have to start over? I suspect I already know what his answer would be but i'll let him be the one to give it if I'm right.

    You keep throwing terms around like "true pvp" and "regular pvp" but you keep dodging the question when myself or someone else asks you to define either of those. So I'm going to ask you point blank one more time, please define what you mean by "regular pvp" and "true pvp". If you're going to use those as standards to say something in game needs to change that would effect everyone else in the game, then you need to be able to define what those standards are. If you can't define those standards then it's just your own subjective opinion and is not a valid complaint or argument. You say a change needs to be made because folks can skip PVP or so on and should expect "regular pvp" or that it's not "true pvp". Okay fine, define those standards and then a true debate can be had about whether or not those changes should occur. Even if they don't agree I'm willing to bet a better majority of folks on here would at least listen as you make your case. As it is right now however, it's a hard pass from me as it sounds like you just want to be able to grief people. Prove me wrong.
     
  11. Bullet_Force Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    347
    My approach to PVP is to include all aspects including economic, militaristic and physiological. I don't believe in having set battles and gentleman's agreements where each side agrees to go to the middle of the map and fight it out. That seems artificial to me. I believe in total war, where everything is a legitimate target including their combat ships, their mining ships, their base. If you can wear them down and prevent them from gaining resource that too is winning. It also the case if you can lower their morale enough to the point that they no longer have the passion and energy to keep playing that is also winning. If the enemy team eagerly recruits players and you are able to slip in a spy then that's legitimate gameplay as well in my books.

    Whatever is needed to achieve victory I am prepared to do it short of using cheats and game breaking exploits. I have adopted this approach in every PVP survival game that I have played and it works great.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2019
  12. captainbladej52 Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    374
    It appears my assumption as to what you would actually say was correct. You pretty much want to be a one man army if at all possible and do not want real pvp where everyone starts out from an equal or as close to equal position as possible, and letting skill do the rest. This along with other comments demonstrate to me you are not interested in true pvp in actually fighting the other person when you can just raid their stuff when they're offline. If you want that kind of game then ARK Survival is the third door down the hall on the right. This game clearly is not going to be a great fit for you based off some of your previous statements. Honestly folks with that kind of "sup3r l33t hardcor3" "pvp" type attitude are the exact kind of folks that typically ruin games for other people and the people that get banned from any servers I host instantly. PVP is simply an option in SE and is NOT the end all be all of the game. So now that we know what you mean by true pvp, then all this stuff is still a hard pass from me, and I guarantee quite a few others.
     
  13. Bullet_Force Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    347
    It's funny you mentioned ARK, I actually have several thousand hours of play time in ARK on Official PVP servers and have found these scorched earth kind of tactics work exceeding well in that environment. That said ARK is definitely a more brutal game then Space Engineers where as this game tends to attract the more gentler types. For that reason I don't go out of my way to try and make players quit in this game like I did in ARK because the player base here is so much smaller and you need people to shoot. I used to run a full PVP server and when a faction got weak and were clearly routed, I would drop them a gift box consisting of a large storage box with loot in it to allow them to get back on their feet. I am nice when I need to be :)

    As to your offline comment I don't offline raid in Space Engineers, unless I just joined a server In that case I will admit I will happily take advantage of any opportunity that I come across to get ahead. I am sure most other players would do so likewise.

    Once established though I will GPS mark the bases and ships that I scout and wait for them to come online, at which point I will warp there and engage them. There is nothing more satisfying then seeing a player login, then watching him through the lens of my camera move about his ship/base before then shooting a specially made PMW at his base/ships. Knowing that they are there to watch the fireworks is very satisfying. Also makes for good Youtube content.

    With that said though you strike me as a closet PVE player, full of morals and ethics that don't belong in a proper PVP environment. My ethics are more simple - I don't use cheats and I won't use game breaking exploits if the other guy isn't.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2019
  14. Calaban Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    901
    I'm still not clear on what is meant by "Safe zones break pvp"

    Safe zones break "base raiding", as any kind of ship moving around by definition can not be under a safe zone.

    PVP is relegated to ship to ship combat, and doesnt render one side or the other back to the stone age as the result of a loss or mis-step.. while the victor retains superiority to just do it again and again. This game is not Rust nor Ark. Players bringing such notions to this game are bound for disappointment/frustration.

    Such a shift in focus of PVP (ship to ship, bases off limits) is made by the makers of the game.. and any players' opinion on what PvP should mean or be, include or exclude, is irrelevant.
     
  15. RkyMtnDude Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    133
    If you really look into the game and where it came from this is a Sandbox survival PVE game with elements of PVP. It is not a Proper PVP game and to seemingly denigrate people for having ethics or a desire to play PVE over PVP is sorta lame. Even in RUST. KOS is a sad way to play and tends to turn any server caustic in any survival game. SO then, it all becomes Me me me, one-sided thrills. Yes, there are elements of the community that want to turn this into a Major PVP game but then that is easy enough by creating a server with that in mind. And so playing the game, you will find that it is not as well suited to REAL pvp as the universe is so large, the player base on a server so small, and weapons limited. Like I have stated to others, when I need/want a real pvp kick I play games that have that as their primary element. It's really that simple. I do not elect to go out of my way to try and engage people in PVP unless they are looking for it. IE: I do not run around looking for sand castles in the sandbox to kick over when no one is looking or when pre-occupied.
    As to just waiting for someone to login to attack them from a distance through the lense. When did that become PVP? Personally, I want to see everyone have a good time.
    I believe in old school honor and combat where you try to balance the playing field so that it is not a one-sided battle or a "I'm getting my jollies at the expense of someone else's good day". For example, chess is no fun with someone with no skill so I train them so that I have real competition.
    If I want/need to gank someone I play a real PVP focused game or FPS. Once again, the title of this game is telling along with it's development. It is Space Engineers. Not Space Combat Engineers. Yes, combat is an element but remembering that this game was originally designed for low pop co-op for MP, PVP was a secondary, almost after-thought.
     
  16. Bullet_Force Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    347
    The trailers and all the marketing material portrayed this game as having strong PVP elements in it. Just about every trailer shows exciting stuff ie PVP stuff, players ramming their ships into other ships, players shooting one another and so forth.

    That's why I and a lot other players purchased the game, we were sold on the PVP war aspect. That is you first mine your resources, then you build your warship, then you and kill and loot the other's guy base and steal his ships. PVP with meaningful risks and rewards, an ARK/Rust in space in many ways except you can design your own nukes.
     
  17. Namdoolb Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    243
    If I can weigh in with my 2 cents:

    Grav drive: Given. Those need to go asap.

    Medbays: No need for Biochips when you can solve the problem with respawn timers: there's plenty of conditions you could concievably add on to the respawn timer to jack up the respawn time if people are trying to suicide-raid.

    Jump drives: Rather than disabling jump drives, how about a setting that would allow you to automatically execute the same jump as another ship (provided your jump drive is capable of the same range & is fully charged).

    Safe zones: I feel like they have their reasons for existing: best solution would be server based settings to control their use. That way hardcore pvp servers can turn them off, but the less hardcore servers can keep them on. I think that keeps everyone happiest.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  18. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,990
    Heh.

    Well, there's this:
    And then there's this:
    Everything is legit. Except running.

    Heh.

    There is a mindset among hardcore PVP players that once you engage in battle there is no retreat, and the target should not have a way to stop being a target, and once an enemy is targeted, the only possible outcome for the target is destruction. If a player tries to stop being a target, they are just cowards. Hardcore PVPers express the most rage at anything that makes it possible for their opponent to "get away".

    I don't like Jump Drives, but planets are just too darn far apart, and raising the speed limit is risky. I think it's a stretch, though, to say using a JD in battle is OP, and what exactly is the meaning of "constantly" in this context? They need time to recharge.
     
  19. Bullet_Force Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    347
    I wouldn't mind seeing the game divided into two modes PVP and PVE. Each would come with some different default settings and then the devs could add features to either would irritating the players from the other group. Ie this shield thing could be defaulted to on in PVE and obviously off in PVP.
    --- Automerge ---
    Look jump drives are in the game and players are free to exploit them in any situation, my point though was everything should have a counter in order to create good gameplay. That is also my problem with that poorly thought out shield system, it breaks PVP gameplay since it cannot be countered.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2019
  20. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,990
    I will grant you that the safe zone... needs some work ;)

    Keen clearly saw the jump drive being used in battle. That's why they require so much power and have a long recharge cycle. That's also why there's such a thing as a blind jump. No reason for that other than an emergency situation. Given the way battle plays out in Space Engineers, which is unlike any other game I am aware of, I cannot conceive of an unfair way to use one. They should not be in the game at all because the technology will not exist in 2077. But as I said before, planets are too darn far apart (although realistically too close together) and raising the speed limit is risky. Since they are, then, necessary, their use in SE battles is legit. The current limits Keen has imposed upon them are adequate. Of the, now, three Necessary Evils (Jump Drives, Gravity Generators, Safe Zones) I find jump drives easiest to defend/tolerate.

    Those other two, though...
     
  21. Malware Master Engineer

    Messages:
    9,552
    No reason except getting anywhere long range without actually having a GPS point :p Like all the planets and moons, or just Out There:tm:... Remember, most people don't do the long travels you do :p

    Nope, it's not an emergency feature. It's a travel feature and has only a passing relation to battle situations.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  22. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,990
    Fair point. I do have the coordinates for all the planets.






    It's NOT CHEATING. I play creative.
     
  23. Malware Master Engineer

    Messages:
    9,552
    @Stardriver907 Some of us would consider playing creative to be cheating... :p (just kidding, enjoy :D )
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  24. KissSh0t Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,496
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  25. Cyber Cheese Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    456
    1. Safe zone blocks

    Since the same person already has a thread on these, and I have already talked to a lot of the same commenters there to explain how there is no counter to player made safe zone blocks, I am going to put my mostly redundant comments in a spoiler.
    Please link to it. If you mean this video, both of the methods discussed in that video can be prevented--especially if you just want to protect your base, rather than run a player made store. Both of the take down methods in that video will fail if there is no shared connector.

    2. Grav Drive
    I agree. Unlike thrusters, it is trivial to bury a huge amount of force under armor. I have been in well over a hundred fights with large grid warships, and the fight is always decided long before the grav drive is disabled.

    The solution, in my opinion, is to implement Newton's third law, rather than artificially limit grav drives to other grids. The latter would allow things like stone drives to work, or let you push a second grid attached via landing gear.

    3. Jump Drives
    I think for normal game balance, a warp inhibitor should be implemented. It is already possible to fly away from combat at the speed limit--and unless your ship is very slow, you should be able to get out of weapons range to do so. But with a jump drive, the only counter is to disable the enemy in just 10 seconds.

    A warp inhibitor should work like a beacon, give a warning to the affected people, and also disable the user's drives and any friendly drives in range. I play a modded server with a similar block, and people still escape combat frequently because the range is limited to 8 km--and as soon as it is activated, you know exactly who you need to run from.
    In space engineers it can be a very long time in between battles. I often sit and wait for people to come to me. However, a jump drive gives people the ability to charge in and take pot shots, safe in the security that they can leave at any time. This actually promotes non committal, hit-and-run combat. It also makes it pretty much guaranteed that any fight will either end with one ship completely obliterated or with one ship escaping. There is no salvage, no long chases, or other interesting outcomes.
    Exactly. As long as there is no counter, jump drives are an unbalanced, get out of jail free card. I don't blame people for using them--but I think the balance should be altered for these combat situations so you need to do work to escape.
    Sure, but a well-designed large grid PvP ship can last for 30 minutes or longer before internal systems are destroyed. I once fought in a 2 hours long end of the server brawl in vanilla. My ship still had working internals at the end, even after it looked like a junkyard on the outside.

    Medical rooms
    I think this goes too far, similar to what you call the "hardcore" spawn system. A better solution would be to combine your two suggestions. If you run out of bio chips, you have to wait 1 minute to spawn at a med room.

    Combat
    That was my understanding. I think more weapons are needed. Maybe one of these will be some flavor of warp inhibitor, or safe zone destroyer, but even for plain Jane ship combat I think we need some variety:

    1. We need stronger long range weapons for hitting big ships. Heavy armor soaks gatling practically indefinitely already, but it is not really possible to HIT enemy ships with missiles at long range due to their slow speed. I suggest a direct fire only mass driver that is very heavy, takes a lot of space and power, and can make a decent hole in a layer of armor with 3 or fewer consecutive hits.

    2. Missiles need to be fixed. Their collision has been bugged for about 3 months as explained in this bug report. This video makes the collision problem painfully obvious. Missile turret accuracy while moving also needs to be fixed.

    3. Stationary defenses need to be stronger. Safe zones probably shouldn't be permitted for turret bunkers (which they currently can be), but it should be easier to make effective fortifications. Current balance is that a sitting duck will die very fast, both to conventional weapons and particularly player made weapons, whereas ships can dodge almost everything aside from gatling.

    The number one improvement here would be something like sandbags or cinderblocks. Extremely cheap but extremely heavy blocks that can soak damage better than armor. It should also be possible to make solid steel walls that are heavier and stronger.

    4. Turret spam is a serious issue both from a fun perspective and a technical perspective. In my opinion, having a battle decided because the opponent brought 100 gatling turrets while you "only" brought 50 is just gratuitous. That many turrets is also a huge source of sim speed trouble.

    I currently play a server with block limits, but actually the main counter to turrets is something of an anti-turret missile--a missile that is somewhat difficult to hit with but explodes in a wide (7 meter) radius and disables turrets in 1 to 3 shots. This weapon can quickly knock out turrets that are placed unwisely, so battles are more dependent upon ingenuity and aim than just the number of turrets.

    5. Fixed weapon systems should have more options to be defended. Launchers in particular are very fragile. I would love to be able to armor my missile launchers, or make torpedo tubes, but the game's questionable understanding of inherited momentum makes this pretty unworkable because the projectile will collide with your own ship if you set it back and try to fire while not flying straight.

    I don't know exactly the best solution to this problem. Certainly, for missiles, I would prefer simulation improvements. Barring that, it should be possible to make armored tubes that extend the firing position of the launcher (but still need to have a fragile launcher behind them).

    6. Similarly, player made turrets can be very deadly, but are always as weak as the underlying mobile systems like rotors, connectors, and pistons. I think these "physics" blocks should simply have armored variants.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019
    • Agree Agree x 1
  26. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,990
    I would say most SE players came to the same conclusion for those reasons. Heck, guns were in the game from the very beginning when there was nothing to shoot except other players. However, it wasn't long before we got space pirates, then sabroids and cyberhounds (or was it the other way around? I forget).

    But let's face it. PvE is OK when you just want to relax and have some fun, but PvP gets the blood circulating. No matter how sophisticated NPC enemies get, they will always be predictable and eventually players will learn how to defeat all the biggest, baddest bosses, and it never seems to take long. The unpredictability of other actual human opponents always keeps things fresh. The beauty of a game like SE is that you not only don't know what your opponent will do, you also have no idea what they will bring.

    Unless you spy on them ;)

    Hardcore PvP players, though, are a tough bunch. Every discussion starts with what is supposed to be "fair", which usually ends up with a list of what hampers their ability to win. When Bungie was creating Halo: Reach, they based the characteristics of all the UNSC weapons on actual weapons. Accuracy, rate of fire, range, etc were all pretty much realistic. After the game released the hardcore cried foul. "Realistic" screwed up their "skill" ratings, and they were having none of that. The new developers (343i) agreed with the hardcore (because they wanted to identify with them) and agreed to change the specs to their liking, but then the hardcore argued with each other over what was "right." In the end 343i gave up.

    What was "right", of course, was the original specs based upon real weapons. Try telling them that, though.

    I think we're in for some of that as Keen rolls out their PvP update. There will be things the hardcore will not be happy with. They will probably be right about a great deal, but not everything. Sometimes you just have to play with the cards that were dealt to you.

    What should be avoided is any talk about what is "fair" or "balanced," or what "requires" a "counter." This isn't your grandpa's game (I should know. I'm a great-grandpa ;)). This isn't football or basketball or any of those kinds of games where you choose up sides with equal number of players and you play on a defined court with boundaries and rules. Nope. Not that game at all. Don't try to make it one. If it's war you want, then war you shall have, and war is not "fair" or "balanced". Players should not be able to jump into safe zones, but not because it's not fair. It's because that shouldn't be possible under any circumstances. If you are shooting at someone's ship and they have a functional jump drive, they would be stupid not to use it. A jump drive should be able to do what it does, so long as it happens outside of a gravity well. Or a safe zone. Weapon characteristics should be based on physics, not player preferences. No one should try to rig the game by getting the developer to make it hard for your opponent to surprise you.

    Which brings me to the subject of unattended bases and offline raiding.

    I have a problem with anyone that believes their stuff on a public server should be left untouched after they log off. This is why I have a problem with safe zones. I mean, for years we have built stuff and defended said builds to the best of our abilities. Then we get some blocks for trading and all of a sudden they need shields? Because they're trading blocks? All this time, "friends" were allowed to approach my ships and enemies were not. Enemies were met with ordnance. Now that's not necessary. Now I can buy a shield and sleep soundly at night.

    So, tell me. Why am I wrong about this?
     
  27. captainbladej52 Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    374
    We agree the grav drive needs to end, though I doubt for the same reasons. I personally believe all exploits need to end along with any bugs that are found. Too often those are cheesed to give advantages you otherwise should not have. I have zero tolerance for those that cheat and exploit. The only exception to that is folks screwing around on their own private servers. Far as I'm concerned folks that exploit on a public server should be perma banned first offense they're busted and made a very public example of. That's another debate for another day however. As far as that goes, You can easily hide thrusters behind armor and use an internal thrust system in this game. In fact I have exactly that for my starbase station that has a complete internal thrust system. Simply because something can be hidden doesn't make it bad. What makes grav drives bad is they're using gravity generators in a way that was never intended and has been called an exploit.

    I've already covered this in the other thread and see no need to repeat it here.

    You've been saying how "everything needs a counter" yet you're advocating for a warp inhibitor block that has no counter itself and could be hidden behind those same layers of heavy armor you're lamenting over others sticking their jump drives behind. Thus contradicting logic yet again. Roughly translated "I don't like that people can hit their jump drives and escape, we need a block that prevents people from getting away because it makes them harder for me to kill and I can't win as fast as I want." Welcome to war where if you're wanting true hardcore pvp, anything goes by what you all of have been saying, which includes jumping away. You don't get to have it both ways.

    The much simpler solution would be just put spawn timers on medical rooms for each person. Even if it's just 30 seconds, alot can happen in that timeframe, especially depending on how many people are out of the fight for the moment. Sometimes when it comes to coding and modding etc, less really is more.

    First I'm going to say on this point that I don't think anyone is going to complain about new blocks and weapons etc they will get to play with. The big question is what weapons we could add that wouldn't just be carbon copies of what we have now.

    Far as the other bit, if everything goes then so does turret spam. Far as I'm concerned I see no reason why someone shouldn't be able to bring as many turrets as they can fit on a ship. Part of pvp is learning to adapt, and if they're able to bring more guns to bear, then you can render that largely ineffective by learning to adapt to it. If they have too many guns to engage head on, then you will need to alter your strategy. Afterall turret spam is part of the game and if you want hardcore pvp that comes with the territory.


    At the end of the day balancing is a delicate act. You will NEVER be able to balance something purely around pvp. Instead you must balance around individual item performance then adjust from there. you're asking them to balance purely around pvp and it will never work, namely like scenarios Stardriver outlined. The game is fine the way it is for the stuff you're naming.
     
  28. Cyber Cheese Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    456
    Why not? Both the shields and jump drives are made up, so your reasoning is not about realism but about fairness. We may disagree about what's fair, but Keen is trying to make a fun game and unfair games are not fun.

    I don't want people to be able to easily run from fights with jump drives. That basically makes every fight optional, even after you engage and potentially do a lot of damage. That is not fun: I want to risk something when I engage. I want my attackers to risk something when they engage me. My problem is that with unlimited jumps, people can use hit and run tactics and choose to disengage as soon as they decide the fight isn't going their way. That makes it less challenging and detracts from the stakes, which is less fun.

    If you want a realistic reason, the jump drive needs to teleport your atoms around, and maybe it cannot do that if there is a jamming device close by. Hell, Star Trek and Star Wars both have tractor beams, let's call it that.

    As to J52's idea: having a delay on the jamming effect, or even a requirement that the jammer maintain line of sight (so it's outside the hull), is not a terrible idea. In my experience on a modded server, people can get away without those limitations, but I don't mind the idea that warp inhibitors/tractor beams can have some limits to prevent people from easily using them in an ambush.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2019
  29. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,990
    Wait... what? That quote was not about realism or fairness. It's about a violation of the current jump drive mechanic. You should not be able to successfully jump to the inside of a safe zone. Jump drives have not exhibited that much precision as previously pointed out by @Malware. It should not be possible. Jumping out should be possible, although that should be inhibited by the zone.

    The only reasoning in the entire post is that the zone should not exist, because the technology for it will not exist in 2077, and therefore Keen does not need to give players yet another excuse to allow other things into the vanilla game that will not exist in 2077. Unlike the jump drive, it's not needed.

    If we're going to talk about reasoning:
    That is disturbing on many levels.

    You know what? I don't want people to be able to use jump drives at all. Said as much right here in these forums the day they were announced. I gave a lot of reasons, but the primary one had to do with the reason Keen put them in the game: planets. I said planets would pull players away from space, and jump drives would make it easy for players to avoid spending time in space. But, I eventually conceded that the way most people play means they probably wouldn't even try to find ways to pass the time between planets, and raising the speed limit to a more appropriate level carries some significant risk. Therefore, the jump drive is essential for the vanilla game. Given those conditions, jumps during combat are approved.

    I'm troubled when someone characterizes any mechanism at a target's disposal that gives it an opportunity to escape as "easy", "allows it to escape death", "get out of jail free card", etc. This mentality that any encounter with an enemy ship means they must stay and fight a duel to the death is worrisome. This isn't boxing. This isn't wrestling. It's WAR. I don't care who doesn't want me to run, or thinks I shouldn't be able to run, or how fast they think I should be able to do it. If it's in the best interests of my ship and my crew, that's what will happen. There's no time limit in the game. No score is kept. Living to fight another day is how it works in Space Engineers. Especially vanilla Space Engineers.

    Then, there's the notion that if someone "got away" it's the game's fault. Anyone that finds themselves constantly frustrated by targets that "just jump away" needs to seriously review their strategy and tactics. If it happens once or twice, well, shit happens. If it happens all the time, I seriously doubt it's just because they have jump drives. Seriously.

    Lastly, I'm in my unarmed Crew Transfer Vessel that has a jump drive, and someone shows up with their 200MT Death Star. They flip a switch (for the drive inhibitor) and now I don't even have a jump drive. I know. I get punished for not being prepared to duel to the death with a battleship. My bad.

    Jump drives are part of the vanilla game. Play the cards you've been dealt.
     
  30. Malware Master Engineer

    Messages:
    9,552
    @Stardriver907 Frankly; of the more interesting PVP battles I've seen W4stedspace do, are the ones where they're using the jump drive to get a tactical advantage. It's quite fun to see them jump around trying to get in front of their enemies. Succeeding, more than once, even.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1