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Reached a crossroads.....

Discussion in 'General' started by FlakMagnet, Jun 19, 2017.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. FlakMagnet Senior Engineer

    As far as my interest with this game goes.

    There has been much 'behind the scenes' stuff going on, but it is not actually addressing ANY of the key issues with the game. Age old problems have returned, and age old problems have still not been fixed. There is still much banter about new features and what people want the game to have, but it will never get these things.


    So...personally speaking I have reached that point. I am bored of playing the game in it's current state, fed up with the current state of key elements which remain broken, and fed up with the complete lack of any clear path or objective as far as the overall game is concerned.

    What Grinds my gears:
    1) Lack of a clear road-map since Beta. What is planned over the next 6 months, what the primary focus is, and what are the additional things. That is a management issue. hat areas of the game are just being fixed, where might new things be brought in and what area those things are intended to expand. What's the point of hoping for aerodynamics on planets if it will never be done. Might as well hope for water.....

    2) Bugs. Yes...I understand the complexities of the code etc. but why are there STILL areas of the game that are embarrassingly shite. Why are wheels such a mess. Why can't I execute a jump with a ship connected via a connector in MP without mayhem. Why can a patch be released that breaks things so obviously. That bug cannot have been there in the testing phase....but it was in the released code. How about PLAYING the release code before release? Read the forums. Same people moaning abut the same issues.

    3)Content. Not blocks...we got plenty of those. I mean CONTENT! life on planets. life in space. AI controlled, wandering about, activity. Not cargo ships on a fixed trajectory at a set speed. Something other than wolves or sabiroids. Wolves are stupid and mindless. Some passive...some aggressive. JUST GIVE ME SOMETHING TO DO!!!!!

    In short...be it in SP or MP, I have done what I want to do and run out of reasons to do more. The game is stagnating and I am finding it increasingly difficult to find a reason to fire it up and play any.
    • Agree Agree x 13
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  2. Forcedminer Senior Engineer

    wheels and something to do other than collect a piece of each ore...build a base...great now build another one.
    has been a gripe of mine for sometime. :/
    each update i wish something gets fixed to make things exciting but its not.
    oh well.

    reviews on steam have gone mixed or something so at least we're not the only ones
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2017
  3. GrindyGears Senior Engineer

    Well, I think what you have said is fair, but you're someone who tunes into the twitch streams aren't you? Xocliw has said big changes are coming albeit they are a little ways off.

    We saw the teaser of the new wheel systems running like they realistically should have since the first iteration.

    We didn't really see anything about more fauna/flora, but I'd wager keen is leery of them at this point, people aren't really happy with wolves and spiders, so to add something new and meaningful will take time

    Based on Xocliws and aragaths banter back and forth, major survival changes are coming at some point, they apparently change things so much that aragath didn't really want to play old survival on stream. I'd assume that means everything is just that much better and more interesting.

    I personally enjoy the game just as a way to build stuff, I can sit there with Lego for extended periods, so I guess that should come as no surprise.

    Maybe this will be your opportunity to take a break, and come back to what I expect may be an entirely different game.
  4. Commander Rotal Master Engineer

    I agree with a lot of this, to varying degrees of being-bothered-by-it, but there's one part i respectfully disagree with quite a bit:

    I absolutely agree that the game could use (and outright needs, if you forgive my using the N-word) SOME form of NPCs, even if they're just standing or sitting around like World of Warcraft questgivers (can you imagine the stuff the modders and scenario builders could do with that?), but i view building in a block-based building game to be essential, and there are OH SO MANY blocks we don't have yet it's not even funny. And i'm not talking about my more subjective wishes like a Shield Generator or a Toilet. Also not physics blocks like Hinges or Rails. I'm talking simply, essential, basic stuff that should have been in years ago. I'm talking Halfblock Slab. I'm talking some of the more useful missing Armor Ramp connection blocks. I'm talking LADDERs. I'm talking clean glass untinted on both sides. I'm talking slanted Cover Walls and Catwalks. Speaking of Catwalks: i'm talking variations of Catwalks and Blast Door Corners that can be easily mirrored without looking stupid. I'm talking Airlocks that don't take the size of a large minivan. I'm talking thin walls. Survival players have been asking for concrete for years. Smaller Solar Panels. Catwalks in the Window-block-shapes for hull pannelling. Chairs that don't look like melted bananas or treadmills. SMALL GRID EVERYTHING. Or at least Small Ship Glass, Pilot Seat and a hatch or door. And while i really hate the waste of resources on the n-th Power block and a redundant Assembler (for the record i see nothing inherently wrong with the Parachutes, i just won't be using them a lot) i do NOT think that block variation are inherently a bad thing when the base version is insufficient (though i've come to prefer the idea of tweaking the already existing version, but that seems a hassle with balancing); case in point: Capital Ship Blocks (especially in light of the recent discoveries in regards to Havok's shape limit).
    Do i think ALL of this has to be in the game to consider it finished? Nah. But some of the more basic stuff (like the small grid stuff or Halfblocks) not being in yet does grind MY gears when it comes to content.

    I see your point and i understand it, but to be blunt people shouldn't need to tune in to technically unofficial streams to gleam that kind of insight into the game. At the same time i don't support the teasing of stuff that might not actually make it into the game either. A new road map or a less "official" format than the update video teasers would do wonders here. In regards to the road map i have my own pet theory that we won't see one because i firmly believe that it would spoil my estimated release date of Christmas 2017. Which would probably not go over very well with many players, as threads like this one show. The stuff they call "Major" releases now, the (welcome!) focus on optimization, the lack of any properly announced new features* and the (in my oppinion unwarranted) BETA label set off ALL of my alarm clocks in this regard.

    * i am dickishly including the upcomming Survival stuff in that statement. Not because i dislike Survival but because none of the blocks added are actually offering NEW mechanics: the Basic Assembler is just going to reuse Assembler-code, the Parachute comes closest but is likely just going to be a hacked, highly limited and speciliazed Thruster in terms of coding and both the Ice Generator and the Wind Chimes will likely repurpose whatever code the Solar Panel and Reactors already use. Don't get me wrong, i'm not calling it NO new content but we're looking at relatively minor stuff here in terms of programming.
    • Agree Agree x 10
  5. GrindyGears Senior Engineer

    I agree you shouldn't really and truely shouldn't have to tune in to get the possible leaks about upcoming things, but to that same note, if something important comes up (with sufficient details) we tend to make a thread about it and discuss it. Should people have to come onto the forums to find the information? Xocliw is Keen's official community manager, I cannot say his streams are really any less official than some random thread here on the forums.

    As far as road map is concerned, I personally don't think they are releasing it because they got a little burned by the deadlines last time they put one out. They also probably don't quite have a rock solid feature list that they can stay rigidly adhered to, if you'll recall a few months back we had those threads asking us what features we like to see (in theory we were supposed to get all of them, our votes are more so in what order we want them) if I'm to believe that, this recent bout of optimizations and improvements are quite literally like the first thing on the list. I'm not super willing to try and Dredge up the old polls, but if I recall: optimization was near or at the top of the list.

    Maybe I'm just seeing the world of SE dev through rose colored glasses, Lord knows everything else is a haze....

    While I can somewhat agree to this, from what I've interperated from the way aragath was talking about survival (old vs new) it seems like there will be a fairly major transition. If it were just adding in some more types of the same block it would be no different than playing with mods on, but I feel (and hope) that they have something much bigger in store for us*

    *side note that I may have had due to sleep deprivation: aragath said there were a lot of bug issues with the new stuff, which would lead me to believe it's new code, not just rehashed or copied code.
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  6. FlakMagnet Senior Engineer

    @GrindyGears :
    A roadmap doesn't have to include deadlines, and doesn't necessarily have to even actually deliver everything, just to tell us they intend to try. It's a way of telling us the direction they want the game to go, and whether there is planned expansion of elemetns of the game. Keen chose the EA route to develop, and it's common for people to remind unhappy players that it is 'EA', but means we are funding development. Doesn't give us the right to control it.... but we ougfht to at least have an idea where the thing is heading.

    @Commander Rotal
    Not complaining if they DO add new blocks, but really....new block novelty is not something I would prefer over solid gameplay improvements. New forms of power generation and a variant of assembler does not make up for a world with things in it to interact with. Nor does it make working wheels with working handbrakes, working rotors and connectors/landing gear that don't fail when you hit warp speed.
    • Agree Agree x 4
  7. FoolishOwl Junior Engineer

    I keep thinking I'm new at Space Engineers, and yet, I've logged a lot of hours in it already. I can't make up my mind whether this is the greatest game ever despite its flaws, or if it's horribly crippled by bad design and I should just delete it from my hard drive rather than spending more time on its steep learning curve. And from what I can see from where I am, I'm not sure I'm interested in what I'd be able to do higher up that curve.

    While at work over the last week, I'd been daydreaming about the big mothership I'd design, but, I thought it made more sense to work on smaller craft for specific purposes, before I tackled a big project like that. I'm still learning how to use the tools, for one thing. So, I worked on a couple of things whose simplicity I think experienced builders would laugh at: a ground antenna relay and an orbital antenna relay. Then I set in on working on a general purpose ground-to-orbit shuttle.

    Long story short, the "engineering" part is pretty easy and straightforward. Block placement? Very difficult. I can barely see the ghost of the blocks, have a hard time figuring out their orientation, have to relearn which key rotates it which way by trial and error almost every time, and the guide in the upper right is useless. It's a lot easier to place the functional blocks, which are easier to see and offer feedback on whether they'll function in an orientation, then it is to place the armor blocks.

    The worst of it is, as far as the "engineering" goes, there's only so far to go. The game design seems to assume that your end goal is to create the infrastructure you need to begin with: you need the refinery, assembler, and power generation to create the tools and vehicles you need to get the ores to build all the stuff you already have. If you can build anything on a planet's surface, you can build a ship that can leave the planet. There are challenges in doing the same things in more complex ways, and basically, building stuff that looks neat, whether it's functional or not.

    (I know, there's also combat, but what I've seen of it in this game, it's so crude I can't imagine enjoying it.)

    I'd like more blocks, but ideally, there'd be more functional blocks. In general, I'd like for there to be more interesting things to actually do in the game.
    • Agree Agree x 2
  8. jemccro Apprentice Engineer

    I have not really played the game much the last few weeks due to a few issues. One was trying to establish a communications network, but then finding out it was limited by view distance. Then I had an issue where some of the files in my saved game are too long for Windows. Then after back-tracking because of that issue, I then realized that my earth-like planet had disappeared at some point when I went to the mars-like planet. Then there are all the bugs that crop-up with each major update. I am almost always a full-version behind in the game to avoid the usual new and reoccurring bugs. Someone mentioned that one or a small team of devs work on a change/feature so long, that when it is finally pushed to public, it has all the old bugs in it.

    Having to limit my gameplay to work around long-term bugs/issues gets tiresome, and I just find something else to do. I'm just assuming that this is normal for a game that has been in development for a few years by a small to mid-size team of developers. They seem to always be looking for new programmers, so maybe they have a staff-shortage or high-turnover of devs we do not see. Someone said that it was all-hands on-deck for this optimization push they have been working on, and that any other changes to the game are on-hold due to that. It makes sense in that they would not really want to add a lot of new features to the game without having a solid base to build on in the first place.

    I still follow the game and updates, but cannot really get back into actually playing the game for now. This is a good game to practice patience on :)
    • Agree Agree x 3
  9. Ravric Apprentice Engineer

    Reliability is something that both SE and KSH has long lost. When and if they ever get it back is a depressing question.
  10. Draygo Senior Engineer

    !Remind me 3 months.
  11. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

    At some point they are going to have to fix rotors and pistons. They are the only blocks that allow for any kind of actual "engineering." Everything else is just block stocking.

    When browsing the workshop... builds with rotors and pistons are fun to play with, but not anything you'd seriously consider implementing on a server and even a lot of single player games.

    Retractable landing gear? Klang
    Boarding ramps? Klang
    Elevators? Klang
    Parts of ships that can extend or transform? Klang Klang.

    It's bad enough that you cannot project grids attached to rotors or pistons. But if they aren't even serviceable? Klang.
  12. May Rears Apprentice Engineer

    Here is something KSH needs to bear in mind: Building anything with Pistons/Rotors is to be avoided unless you want to tempt klang, building anything with wheels is to be avoided because they are broken right now. Empyrion is IMO the closest competition but their focus is more on survival content rather than construction content but if you cannot build anything that works reliably using blocks that make up that difference there will be people making the switch and possibly not coming back.

    For what it is worth I want both games to do well, I play both of them depending on mood and assuming both work as intended are different enough to co-exist.
    • Like Like x 1
  13. Syncaidius Junior Engineer

    This. Its been repeated ever since the addition of drones/pirates but Keen haven't spoke a word about it. Since joining the forum years ago I've noticed a repeating pattern, Keen always listen to the very loud minority who are content to keep SE as a creative sandbox. The same people who opposed the addition of survival/realistic mode, who also happen to be the same people who constantly draw on the mantra that SE is an engineering game and shouldn't include much/any survival gameplay.

    That's all fine of course, but as you've already said, there is nothing for us to do with our creations. beyond smashing them into stuff and create mindless carnage, or perhaps the increasingly rare organized-PVP battles.

    But back to the point, what happened to AI controlled players:

    I know that video has been used many times over the years, but it looked very promising and even for a prototype, it seemed to work pretty well. What they showed in 2014 is miles better than what we currently have in game. Mindless, Leeroy Jenkins sabaroid/wolf bots which get stuck in the simplest of obstacles.

    I really do hope Keen start adding some actual content/gameplay to SE before its too late. Also the bugs. I obviously cannot speak for the state of their internal source control, but as an outsider, it looks like a mess. Every other week some old bugs come back to haunt us as if they don't do code reviews or even test the release candidate builds against a list of bugs to see if they've actually been fixed. Which brings me to another issue. Changelogs.

    In the past two weeks we've had a huge amount of updates/patches, yet the changelogs are almost non-existant. We got a few vague notes for the main update and some tiny notes for the next 10+ patches. What did you fix Keen? Do we have to guess every single fix?

    How many players (not just on the forums) have spent weeks waiting for a bug to be fixed, only to find out it was fixed a month ago and Keen couldn't be bothered to mention it in a changelog? Check the Steam reviews. Keen are one of the very few developers that seem unable to produce proper change-logs.

    This is why I and many others (again, check Steam reviews) have given up with this game. Its an utter mess. It has so much potential but Keen are just p***ing it down the toilet. The game itself is awesome and makes a great foundation for more interesting gameplay (which I won't go into because there are plenty of topics on that), but given how much time is spent fighting things like clamp/connector bugs, exploding pistons/rotors/debris, MP sync issues, corrupt worlds, crashes (which also end up losing progress), I no longer enjoy playing it.

    I apologize to anyone who thinks I sound a little aggressive, I'm just frustrated and maybe a bit angry with how SE is going given that it was one of my favorite games for a long time. There was a time I'd come here and defend Keen because they were a small company with just a few developers working on a big game and actually did well, but that time is long past. They're pretty large now.

    EDIT: This ended up being longer than expected. Woops! :stare:
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2017
    • Agree Agree x 2
  14. Roxette Senior Engineer

    Crossroads ? I don't think the game is at a crossroads, it's more like it reached a roundabout some time ago now, and it keeps going round and round because it doesn't really know which exit it wants to take, and the steering is broken. :(
    • Agree Agree x 5
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  15. beelzerob Apprentice Engineer

    Ya, that's pretty much been my depth of SE involvement for at least a year. I keep watching, I'm rooting from the sidelines...but I've no interest in actually playing again until my "what do I do now?" problem is solved.
  16. FoolishOwl Junior Engineer

    The thing that worries me is the introductory campaign, which portrays Space Engineers as an open world CRPG, and scarcely references its sandbox features. Incorporating some open world CRPG elements would be a great way to add things to do, but, it's just obvious that Space Engineers lacks much in the way of features one would expect in a open world CRPG: they couldn't even show an NPC walking around. It just showed a somewhat bizarre confusion about what Space Engineers is, and unrealistic expectations about its course of development.

    As a sandbox, calling Space Engineers "Beta" seems generous; it seems like it's still missing major features. As an open world CRPG, that introduction barely qualified as a proof-of-concept.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. Taemien Apprentice Engineer

    Going to Beta meant no need for a roadmap. Major features are done. For now its bug fixes. This isn't to say they won't add stuff during Beta or after release. But there's no need for a set of roadmap points to reach. They've hit the 'end'. Everything else is gravy.

    When you purchased the game in a Early Access state, you told Valve (through Steam) that you wished to test this game for the developers (KSH). So the game is being tested before its released. But I think you misunderstand when release actually happens. It hasn't happened yet. When they are happy with the state of the game and its playability, it will be 'released' as a full game and no longer be in Early Access.

    I know that isn't what you want to hear. But its the truth. There's no better QA team than us. We can find bugs the devs would take days or weeks to find. We can find bugs that they couldn't find even with the best QA team in years.

    This isn't one of their strong points. In both SE and ME, there is very simple AI's that are dumber than the AI's of enemies in NES games. Just being honest. I think much of it has to do with getting the AI to work with a dynamic world as they can't have set pathings and so forth. But to be honest, I just think they won't do this. They just don't know how. Coders are great at what they do. But some things they just can't do. This is one of them apparently. They need a guy who can just figure it out. They may not have that guy. I don't know.

    There might be a chance you've 'beaten the game' as we called it back in the 80s and 90s. When you've completed World 8-4 like for the umpteenth time, its time to move on. Not every game is meant to be played forever. Many times they come to their conclusions, for some its quicker than most. If you've got 50 hours into the game. Congratulations. You've literally got 5-6 times more enjoyment out of it than most $60 AAA titles out there. You're not paying a sub, so you can stop playing, maybe try it again when it releases and maybe you'll respark something. If not, you didn't lose anything.

    Basically if you don't have a reason to stay, then don't. It serves no purpose. If your goal is just to be a bitter lurker, trying to warn new players away from the 'evil's of the game' then you're ridiculous. You're trying to impose your likes and dislikes on other people. They can play it and come to their own conclusions. Its like those reviews on steam trashing a game, yet have 300 hours of play on their profiles. That's not going to be taken seriously.
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
  18. Jikanta Apprentice Engineer

    I will play this game forever. =D
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  19. FlakMagnet Senior Engineer

    @Taemien :
    They have no direction. Sometimes trying to map out where you are going helps to crystallise the direction. WHAT is the game trying to be. That's a management issue

    QA ? Sorry..that's an old smokescreen. I refer to the bugs we all know about, we have all reported, and are common knowledge. Wheels, rotors, bugged MP connectoirs and landing gear. Those bugs. We don;t need to find them. We already did. Then there are the bugs that get fixed but keep coming back. Or the bugs that creep into release code that were not there in test builds. It implies issues between testing and code control. Testing feedback isn't driving the process. That's a management issue

    If they don;t have someone able to create even basic levels of AI that do more than spawn and move toward you, or spawn and move in a straight line at a steady speed, then they need to find someone who can manage that. No idea where you can find coders who understand AI. Good AI. That's a management issue

    Lastly...it's a sandbox game. You DO NOT beat sandbox games. That's why I like them. Trouble is, the PvE element is mastered in very short order, and that ends the threat challenge, and the game just becomes 'creative' with grind. Exploration....no. Nothing to explore. No reason to explore. Build? For what? I have played the game since survival first becamer a thing, and to be honest.....it has not grown. There are several modders who have done a lot to show what CAN be done, but these concepts were not explored in vanilla.

    In simple terms. Not bitter. Not lurking. I never impose ANYTHING on ANYBODY. I am making my own conclusions, and expressing them. If I point out any 'evils' then they are real ones. Are you denying my right to do so? That's not going to be taken seriously. I would happily edit any statements that are not correct. It is also, I have to point out, not a set of opinions unique to me. Perhaps by stimulating conversation on 'the elephant in the room' some good will come. No good comes from sticking your head in the sand.
    • Agree Agree x 2
  20. jemccro Apprentice Engineer

    They have redone the AI, but not implemented it in the game yet for some reason. Maybe they intend on doing that in the upcoming survival re-balance/revamp. When they demoed the new AI awhile back I got excited, but then they rolled it out unimplemented which I thought was kind of odd. Not that I'm complaining, they can do whatever they want as it is their game/company. If they do indeed roll out the new AI in the re-balance/revamp then that move will make sense. Why put in the man-hours to implement something that is only going to be redone in the near future. The same goes with tutorials and such.
  21. chrisb Senior Engineer

    I pop in and play from time to time. Its still a game i consider one of the best purchases I have made, game wise..

    However I agree with the OP. There are lots of issues still.

    The most disappointing part is... the want of us the players (especially those that like sandbox games), to make a great game for ourselves from SE.
    My initial thought long ago, was to make a whole universe of interesting things, I even started building it out. But so many of those things are now broken or not working, or working how they should.. Well it just makes for a sad and disappointing gaming experience.
    Swapping between creative and survival was great, building something with a view to placing it in my gaming universe, that was to be based on survival 'eventually', gave me a, unique to this game (at the beginning at least), want to build and make my universe. Even if that universe never really got used, the way I used it in my head whilst building. That was o.k.... it was there to be used..

    But you can't do that, if disappointment and trust in the game starts to wane. That is what i found happening in SE. I love the game (the sandbox). But once I found space is small, it took everything away for me. I hoped it would be fixed, but to no avail. That was sort of the last straw for me.

    Its sad, really is. But that is for me and others to deal with. The way I dealt with it was to stop playing with a view to the future. Instead pop in from time to time to mess around, which really isn't what a sandbox game deserves, they deserve much more input than that.. But that input has to be based on a 'trust in the game'.
    That, for now, isn't there. For some of us, at least.
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2017
  22. FoolishOwl Junior Engineer

    Yeah, everything points to a conclusion that I should just shelve this game for a few months, and come back later if there's a significant content update.
  23. Syncaidius Junior Engineer

    On the forums this may be true, but for Steam reviews, given the current state of Early Access, I think warning other players of the flaws in a game/developer/studio is a very sensible thing to do. Same goes for the positives.

    Most reviews help others make an informed decision on whether to buy it or not, instead of jumping in head first into what might be a game that hasn't gone anywhere for years.

    Sure, they can get a refund, but for a game like Space Engineers, the 2 hour refund threshold is far from enough for a new player to experience enough of the game/bugs to decide whether they like it or not.
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2017
  24. SpecFrigateBLK3 Senior Engineer

    I'm going to chime in as the voice of dissent here.
    Why in the absolute fuck do people think they're entitled to know everything a year in advance or something? Look back, not just on SE development, but video game development as a whole. This early access concept is a relatively new phenomenon. Used to be we'd get a full game all at once and if it sucked, it sucked. People dealt with it. Nowadays though, entitlement culture has spawned a loud bout of complaining when things aren't exactly their way, and they tear apart all of the SE team's hard work as pointless because, oh my god, I can't deal with people not hanging on my every word.
    For the record, I'm 27. I've watched this entitlement culture come into being. If someone who grew up in it can rise above it, you can too. Stop being entitled shitheads. Have some fucking patience. I don't give a damn how many people say the game is "unplayable" because some minor thing goes wrong. EVERYTHING goes wrong for me. I engineer my way past it because that's the fucking point of the game.
    • Funny Funny x 3
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  25. Forcedminer Senior Engineer

    go build a rover and try to drive across the surface of mars or the desert without a gyroscope. :)
  26. FoolishOwl Junior Engineer

    For the record, I'm 46. I've been playing computer games since Pong was new. I work in software QA testing.

    Because this game is early access, and we're beta testing it.

    So, for one thing, in order to test it effectively, we'd need to know what changes were made. That's how QA testing works: you do some combination of running standard tests, using the thing as it would be normally, using it in extreme ways to push its limits, and doing tests that are focused on recent changes.

    For another, the conventional recruitment pitch for beta testing is that you get to see the game as it develops, and have some influence on how it will develop. That's the kind of feedback a software developer wants from beta testing, anyway.

    Yes, it's a new phenomenon, in which people *pay* to be beta testers. It used to be that you'd have a small group of professional testers who were paid to do that work; then, late in development, you'd give the beta for free to volunteers; often you'd get the finished game for free as a reward for participating in the beta testing. (I did that once in my early teens.)

    Yes, we dealt with it by complaining that the game sucked.

    "Entitlement culture", as a concept, seems to be based on the sarcastic use of "entitled" to describe people who get angry when they're denied something they *are not* entitled to; recently, it's extended to be used as a term of abuse for people who complain when they're denied something they *are* entitled to.

    If this were a finished game, then we'd be entitled to complain about bugs, because it doesn't work as promised. If this were an unfinished game, still in beta (as this game says it is, right in the logo), then it's expected that there will be bugs, and we are expected to complain about them. If the same bugs exist for years, then we're going to complain that there's something wrong with the process of responding to bug reports.

    This game's been in "Early Access" for over three years now. That's a long time to be in the public testing phase. There are several games on Steam that describe themselves as inspired by Space Engineers, which suggests the developers of those other games had already played Space Engineers before starting the development of their own game.

    We'd not be doing KSH any favors by ignoring issues and pretending everything's fine.
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2017
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  27. FlakMagnet Senior Engineer

    Engineer your way past what exactly? Broken rotors, broken connectors, broken wheels .... 'engineer' is clearly a new fangled term for 'do not use' because that's what it actually means.

    Wheels are so broken I am going to build a flying machine instead is not engineering.

    Engineering a solution is being stuck in a hole with a limited supply of raw materials and working out how to build a ladder. Simple engineering that anyone could do .... but engineering. Building a ladder. How hard coud THAT be.....
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  28. Roxette Senior Engineer

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  29. sioxernic Senior Engineer

    Despite this, quite a few people manage to build extremely stable contraptions with rotors.
    Pssh... They've never been more stable... ever... They are amazing as they are right now.
    And see point 1... Despite that quite a few people manage to build extremely stable wheeled vehicles.
    --- Automerge ---
    Oh no, daddy didn't tell you why they have no road map?
    Well they did for Miner Wars, discovered how shitty it felt and how shitty the PR is when people get hyped on on features that can't be released, or didn't make it, that is why they don't have a road map.
    It is so entitled for you to demand a road map, are you kidding me? If there is a road map, whenever a feature gets scrapped there will be complaints. Tons of 'em.

    Understands complexity of code, but asks completely insanely stupid questions.
    Why are wheels such a mess? Please, use a semi-realistic physics engine and make wheels work absolutely perfect. Please... I dare you... Do you have any idea how complex physics are? Especially if they are trying to simulate real life forces, do you honestly understand how many things that needs to be taken account of? There is a reason why developers uses physics engines, and not making them from scratch...
    And you are also asking why a patch can break obvious things?
    Okay... Well...
    They probably can't do tests on the same scale as a game like League of Legends, and that game has obvious game breaking bugs on some champions, especially on release. So... Really?
    Also sometimes you just have to ship shit with a bug, so you can get bug reports and data on where the bug is happening. Bugs aren't just tiny snippets of code marked "Bug, fix please"
    Bugs are usually the result of extremely complex behavior spanning several classes, with tons of inter-referencing lines of code where a single +1 somewhere wrong can give you insanely different results than expected.

    They probably do play the release code before release, but I don't think you understand how they have been developing the game. You have PAID to be tester, I see nothing wrong with that.
    Same stuff popping up again and again? Well, ... you "understand complexity of code"... Try yourself.

    Yes, you add content before features are done, and you want a bug free game, but you want content...
    Every time any new content is added to a game a potential new bug arises, so dude, what do you want?
    You are whining about two things that are contradicts each other.

    Sure, I can see some content being nice, but the game is not release ready yet, and to be fair, they have some bigger priorities right now.
    Also, how many hours do you have in the game? If you say anything above 40, then you saying there is no content is a lie. There was 40 hours of content...

    You are super entitled here, like super entitled. If you don't want to play early access, wait until release and then start whining and complaining, because at that point a lot of your complaints would have merit.
    Everyone complains constantly about this and as someone said, we are in an entitlement culture right now. People are like: "'ey, I paid for it so now the game has to be exactly what I want" which it sounds like you are asking here.

    Go ahead, go to Keens office and offer up your help, because you "understand the complexity of code" and your incredulity towards the wheels not being fixed seems to me you know how it can be fixed.
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
    • Funny Funny x 1
  30. FoolishOwl Junior Engineer

    Who said, "absolutely perfect"? There are thousands of games that involve simulations of wheeled vehicles. If the wheels don't behave realistically, the simulation isn't realistic.
    You mean, like using the Havok engine?
    Either this is a finished game, in which case we are *literally entitled* to complain about bugs, or it's a beta test, in which case we are *expected* to complain about bugs.

    Or to put it another way: since it *is* a beta test, if you don't point out bugs and critique the game, you're failing to uphold your end of the bargain in participating in a beta test.
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2017
    • Agree Agree x 2
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