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SE - Abandoned/Finished

Discussion in 'General' started by Dragonspride, Apr 1, 2018.

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Should Keen Release SE as open source if they abandon it?

  1. I agree

    49 vote(s)
    53.8%
  2. I dissagree

    34 vote(s)
    37.4%
  3. I don't know

    8 vote(s)
    8.8%
Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Dragonspride Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    460
    We've all seen the videos we all have our own opinions. Mine is this is Miner wars all over again. Or as I have said in the past Silent hunter 5. I would like to start a petition that if keen intends to abandon a arguably unfinished product they should release it to the public in the form of open source. Just dump the files into the wild and let the modding community clean up the mess. Irregardless of your opinion on keen, would you support this?
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 15
    • Agree Agree x 5
  2. Jikanta Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    418
    You want someone else's vote on something they may not agree with you on? I don't agree with this poll.
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
    • Disagree Disagree x 4
    • Funny Funny x 1
  3. Dragonspride Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    460
    Yes, if keen abandons SE should they release SE as open source. Simple question. I dissagree with your disagreement. Keep up your hope, didn't know the keen fanboy dislike brigade still existed
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. haibusa2005 Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    40
    I am against releasing it as open source - Keen have put a ton of work-hours into it and suddenly code goes free. It might be better to de-obfuscate the code and make it available to the public - similar to the way done about year or so ago.
     
  5. Malware Master Engineer

    Messages:
    9,836
    Releasing the game to open source would be a seriously bad business decision and whether we like it or not Keen is a business. It exists to make money like every other business. The game has already gone way way beyond the original specs, and who knows what it'll be in the very finished version - they're not done yet - although it certainly won't be what some people want. It's a sandbox. That doesn't make for a good game in my opinion, but I have to accept the fact that they never ever said it would be anything else but just that. Any further expectations than that we in the community can only blame ourselves for and frankly, given that 90 % of what the game is now is purely based on what the community has suggested and wanted, some things Keen was originally even adamantly against (oxygen/pressure comes to mind) we can't really demand anything. The game has sold and still sells very well. They'd be fools to release it to the wild before that sale dies down.
     
    • Agree Agree x 19
  6. Dragonspride Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    460
    "game" Unfinished tech demo is more like it. Don't have to preach capitalism to me, im just saying that we are under-respected beta testers, keen does a bad job of communicating, even worse listening.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 11
    • Agree Agree x 2
  7. Malware Master Engineer

    Messages:
    9,836
    If they hadn't listened to the community there wouldn't even be multiplayer. Yes they're bad at communicating. No they're not bad at listening. This was supposed to be a small, simple ship builder. Nothing more. The rest is from the community.

    There's plenty to berate Keen for. Listening to the community, not really an issue.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2018
    • Agree Agree x 10
  8. TenshouYoku Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    103
    Making it easier for modders and programmers to build stuff is one thing, but making it open source is killing themselves.
     
    • Agree Agree x 6
  9. Forcedminer Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,227
    I don't know.

    but i know one thing.
    if they cease updates for good modders can rejoice and be able to create mods with the knowledge that an update won't mess their mods.

    sad as it will be at least modders can sort of....take over and add what they wanted.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  10. NoThanks Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    463
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
  11. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,368
    Under-respected beta testers? I don't remember getting hired. Keen owes the US Government payroll taxes. Are beta testers required to buy the game before they qualify for reimbursement? How many hours of testing must I do to get paid? I have nearly 7000. Not to mention that I suspect very few of my fellow testers have put SE through the paces I have on a regular basis.

    Having spent the last twenty years of my life engaged in negotiations between employees and their employers, I can confidently say that there is nothing here at all that even remotely resembles any sort of contract between Keen and the people that buy the game. While your personal opinions about how well the game works are appreciated, they are not mandatory and neither is their response to them.

    As to whether or not we are "respected" as beta testers, respect is earned. I suspect the more respectful testers are better respected than the less respectful testers. It just about always works that way. No one respects crap data obtained by lazy means. Continually repeating "it's not good enough" or "you still haven't fixed this" is not the kind of data Keen should be compelled to respect.

    These days it's easy to forget that Keen is a small company. As such it was easy to start out with everyone on the same page and focused on a single goal. It was also nimble enough to make mid-course corrections in order to take advantage of things they learned along the way. If you add to that the fact that a lot of things they tried actually worked and it's easy to see how everyone involved got a bit carried away.

    For every suggestion from the community worth pursuing there are about twelve hundred Keen should definitely NOT pursue. These DOA suggestions constitute the bulk of what Keen ignores and makes it difficult for them to deny they are not listening. Hearing for the thousandth time that the game would be better if it had liquid water and aerodynamics and orbital mechanics when they made it abundantly clear years ago those things would never happen could be construed by some people as proof that Keen has some sort of institutional flaw with the way they deal with good, solid suggestions from a community that just wants to help.

    It is my fervent hope that these recent changes in the way Keen is going to develop it's product means that Keen has decided to remember that it is their product and way back when they knew what that product was and they are still willing to produce that product and not some Frankenstein monster so bloated with barely used code that no one remembers anything about but they're unwilling to cut cause it might turn out to be critical.

    I hope that they have come to grips with the fact that Space Engineers is what it is and while this, that, and the other thing might make it better, it's probably best if they finish what they started first. After all, bells and whistles aside, the game that got our attention is still the game they put on the market back in 2014. That is the game I have been playing for 7000 hours over four years. If anything, Keen needs to remind people that Space Engineers is not just their game. it's their idea, and it remains unique. What they currently risk is having their product become known as "The-Game-You-Use-to-Play-All-the-Other-Games-You-Like-but-for-Some-Strange-Reason-It's-Better-to-Use-SE-to-Play-Them." They need to define what Space Engineers is and communicate that to the community, and they need to stop giving the impression, intentionally or unintentionally, that SE is undefined and they are waiting for a definition from the community, and when they figure out what that is they will bend and twist SE to make it seem like that's what they were after all along.

    We, the community, need to remember it's their game. A lot of people seem to believe their personal reputations are at stake if the rest of the world does not embrace SE as they have, so they have built themselves an "escape route" by establishing a highly skeptical presence online that insists it knows better without having to prove it. We need to let Keen make their game, and if they are screwing it up they need to understand why. I don't think they are, but I feel like I'm the only person that just wants a game where you build working spacecraft.

















    OK, large working spacecraft ;)
     
    • Agree Agree x 6
    • Like Like x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  12. tankmayvin Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,863
    Yes it is a sandbox, no that doesn't make it a good game.

    However, Yes Keen did "say" it would be something else by stating that there would be survival and by adding in half-baked PVE features that we were told were just place-holders for something more.

    So far we haven't gotten this "more". Even as of the latest Q&A and other discussions we've been told that the survival experience is not complete.

    I don't have any hatred towards SE, I've more than gotten my money's worth. I am, however very disappointing that PVE/survival has not been developed beyond the skeleton that was put in ages ago.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  13. Malware Master Engineer

    Messages:
    9,836
    @tankmayvin Keep in mind even the survival bit is there because the community wanted it. I'm disappointed too, but I find that to be my own fault. It said sandbox on the tin when I bought the game. When you buy an early access game, you buy what is there right then. That's what Valve advices on their page explaining what Early Access is. If you don't like what's there at the point when you're about to push the buy button, if you don't can't live with it being just that as far as features go, don't push the buy button.

    Can't say I really regret it though, got lots of fun hours. But it will never be what I hoped it would be, especially because I don't play multiplayer. Still, if nothing else, it's taught me not to buy into early access games, because you never know where it will go. At any rate the game isn't finished yet, I'll reserve my end judgement 'till then. The final gameplay update isn't here yet, knowing Keen I would assume this to be of the later majors closer to gold release. But it won't ever be anything but a sandbox game, perhaps we might call it sandbox+, because that's Keen's vision of it. That's what they set out to make.
     
  14. PLPM Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    844
    @Malware

    True, but you can`t go the "all my fault" way.

    There were some bad manouvers Keen has done that could have been prevented. For example showing an Astronaut AI navigating some obstacles some three years ago, this was huge back then, and it made imagination break loose as to what it meant. Players won`t sit tight and expect to be fed information with a spoon, they`ll make a mad dash to any hint of what could be next door.

    Hinting towards a massive survival overhaul is TONS more dangerous than saying something small, like "next update we will focus on rebalancing grid characteristics like mass and components between different grid sizes, and possibly some extra stuff" So you could be in reality developing something much bigger, but you have something basic to fall back to in case it fails to avoid hyping something you aren`t sure if it`ll ship in the update.

    It`s ridiculous someone would have to cover their asses so much for so little and to read between the lines to try to make sure there`s as little as possible for players to alucinate, but that`s real life.
     
  15. Dragonspride Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    460
    I define early access as under-respected beta testers. I want the game, again IF ABANDONED as I've stated. To be released open source so that the modders can actually craft a game out of this mile wide, inch deep pit that keen has made.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 4
  16. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,368
    Well, it doesn't look like they're abandoning it, and they're definitely not giving it away.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  17. tankmayvin Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,863
    I don't disagree, I just expected more based on the way things were when I bought the game, and where one could reasonably expect things to progress. Survival is one of the "central pillars" of the game from the very first bit of the description. The others being: engineering, construction, exploration.

    Now I purchased the game right when MP was added to survival so for me I was investing in the development of a PVP/PVE survival game. You will notice a huge uptick in sales/player counts when these features were released (MP in particular) so a lot of people were also buying into this as well. Possibly most buyers were.

    The problem is that the game still is basically stuck with the prototypical PVP/PVE survival/exploration features that were put in that original update. Meanwhile we had a huge detour into planets and whatnot that were in huge demand, but ultimately diverted a lot of resource away from fleshing out pillars 3/4. Practically speaking, pillar 2, construction, hasn't been touched in even longer and they keep screwing up welder and projection behaviour constantly.

    Some balancing out of the game mechanics and block costs, and the addition of PVE content that wasn't a complete joke (ie meaningful procedural spawning of pirates that can fight just a little) would be enough to get me back into the game. There are mods that do this, but they constantly break.

    So the issue isn't really about my hope/unrealistic expectation, it is more about what I was reasonably let to believe based on progress and promised content at the time I purchased. I'm mostly just disappointed since loved this game to death for 1500 hrs.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  18. Malware Master Engineer

    Messages:
    9,836
    @PLPM Not denying that, hence the "enough to berate keen for" part. But it goes both ways. It's also not right to put it all on Keen.

    @tankmayvin I'm sure you know that it wasn't even going to be called "survival" mode. I don't think they ever originally considered it to be more than it is, build by mining resources. I know certain people at Keen wants a game as much as we do, but that doesn't help if they don't get the time from the management to do it. Anyway, like I said, it's not done yet, might still improve. But as I've said before, it will never be the huge gamechanger some people have been imagining.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  19. halipatsui Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,253
    I suspect keen will keep improving the game after release.
    Would not be surprised to see more missions encounter types etc being added afterwards.
    Kinda like end and ender dragon in minecraft.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. Malware Master Engineer

    Messages:
    9,836
    @halipatsui I think so too, but I have a sneaking suspicion that will be in the form of paid DLCs. And honestly I don't blame them for that.
    --- Automerge ---
    Incidentally, @tankmayvin, the "leading to believe" part is why Keen don't want to talk about the future of the games, every time they've strayed from that rule it's gone wrong... because software development is painfully unpredictable. It's also stated in Valve's guidelines to Early Access developers that they shouldn't talk about what will be in a game in the future - although Rosa apparently doesn't remember that, according to the stream... it's all Keen's decision according to him, based on their earlier experience. If they hadn't teased and talked about this, people wouldn't have started to generate images in their head of what this should be, and the situation would have been different now. Not saying whether this is a good or bad thing. Just stating facts.

    Oh, and they keep screwing up welding and projection because they're trying to optimize it. Optimization is highly likely to result in bugs, since it's pretty much all about removing code ;)
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  21. halipatsui Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,253
    @Malware

    I dont mind dlcs either. Especially if they are missions or stuff like that.

    But if they leave some grand features behind paid dlc wall people are going to get really pissed.
    (And a week later someone mods it in)
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  22. tankmayvin Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,863
    Agreed, but they did very little to manage the damage once it was done. And sure, while survival wasn't supposed to be called survival, it was called survival when I bought the game. I had been following it for quite some time but took the plunge because things looked promising with stable-ish MP and some things to fight.

    I'm fine with there being bugs, I'm not fine with there being the same bug over and over and over again, that's usually not a positive sign of progress after years. Same goes for the tool radius thing. This is the sort of stuff that should have been settled by a round of balancing patches much earlier along than it has been. Tools are so utterly fundamental to the SE experience that it makes no sense that they aren't the #1 priority to move to stable.
    --- Automerge ---
    If you want pissed, imagine if they add paid DLC for stuff modders have already done, or go the "creation club" route.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  23. halipatsui Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,253
    It is actually pretty hard to think of gold dlc content for this game apart from skins. Which they apparently dont intend to sell.

    Story? = FU sell engine and story seperatedly.

    New blocks?= well look at EA

    Skins?= you broke your promises

    Ladders?= money and salt spewing boner???
    --- Automerge ---
    @tankmayvin
    Oh didnt even think of that.
    Pay to win race to workshop front page. That would really piss people off
    --- Automerge ---
    I dont know how mich public expectations of the game are outside the community but i do think keen hasnt really marketed SE strengths as a building platform enough. To me it seems that it might be possible to get a picture from something like empyrion tries to be.

    But this is just a guess. No idea what people outside the community actually think.
     
  24. Malware Master Engineer

    Messages:
    9,836
    I don't really see it being anything beyond that, except perhaps certain features they might need to create said "missions or stuff". Although the features might of course just be an update.


    Anyway we're going into speculation territory now, which hasn't done this game any favors so far :p

    Speculation and assumption are cousins. Bad things comes from those.
     
  25. halipatsui Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,253

    Why are you talking so negatively about completely reasonable, almost confirmed core features like metropol cities with full fledged learning ai npc citizens and a sevage system with actually flowing volumetric liquid water being part of a moving solar system guided by planets orbiting and constantly ridden with war by multipile death stars whise favorite tactics are ramming into each other?
     
  26. tankmayvin Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,863
    Based on total review counts and total active owners (something like 2.5 mil owners but most have zero or ~9 mins of play time), versus concurrent player counts and their play times its safe to say that most players are not captivated by SE for a really extended period time.

    Outside of a very core community SE is basically ignored.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  27. halipatsui Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,253
    I have heard that many people dont really play early access due to bugs so it will be interesting to see how community will develope after release.

    Id also carefully would count some of those people @tankmayvin mentioned to this group if they have nlt really tried the game
     
  28. chrisb Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,460
    Keen have gone too far and not far enough... :?

    Too far, because they gave us all sorts of different things to play with.. Planets being the largest and they weren't in the original scope of the game, well I don't think so. So a few things have been added, that were not really part of the original idea.

    Then not far enough, mainly with some fixes. Passing fixes off as major updates of late, which is not a great idea, when all your doing is fixing your game. Fixes have been many, but problems have been more, unfortunately.
    Some problems being caused by adding new 'toys', so 'shooting yourself in the foot' springs to mind.

    But give credit where due. This sandbox is very playable, its just that players, well me certainly, can't trust the game to not produce problems. If building a gaming world, which lets be honest is a fairly large chunk of players time, which by the way, most of us that play sandbox games are willing to do, thats why we buy this type of product. The idea of a sandbox is the buyer, builds their own gaming world, the dev provides the 'toys' lets say.
    But we need the toys to be reliable, which in some cases they're not.

    How to move forward..
    Well SE-2 sounds o.k. to me, I've had my monies worth out of the current game, although I'll not get to finish my gaming world. But I can put it down to practise.
    I wouldn't want to buy the second SE, if the same engine is to be used, or not have at least a good update.

    But we'll see. It is a let down of sorts, but I can see why they are moving towards this end result, the engine can't really handle the game/sandbox. It could if it was still as first envisioned. But it isn't now, its moved on and shot itself in the foot in the process. Well, to a certain degree.

    It can't be compared to Miner Wars, this was a project that gave too much, which caused it to falter. Just one of those things. We in the community pushed for extra stuff, they should really have said 'no', but we would all have moved on, long ago (probably). So we're partly to blame. ;)
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  29. Cetric Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    812
    Yet another defaitism embracing thread by people who never learnt to be patient and appreciate the milestones reached along the path. Seems I am immune to contagious diseases aiming at the fundaments of great projects. So I won't join in the chant about the end of something which is alive and under work.
    --
    Or is this the 'self-fulfilling prophecies' department?
     
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  30. Lord Grey Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    412
    I'm strong for a SE2, with an engine that can support higher speed and orbital mechanics, maybe less physical interactions. SE has its charm, but I don't think you can get much more out of it, the engine has its limitation, and that would hinder SE to get to full potential of this genere. It would be nice if the multiplayer part and DS would work better, especially with large constructs like orbital lifts. But I already mentioned on other places, finish SE and start SE2. In that concept it would be not advisable to release the code as open-source.
     
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