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SE - Abandoned/Finished

Discussion in 'General' started by Dragonspride, Apr 1, 2018.

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Should Keen Release SE as open source if they abandon it?

  1. I agree

    49 vote(s)
    53.8%
  2. I dissagree

    34 vote(s)
    37.4%
  3. I don't know

    8 vote(s)
    8.8%
Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Arcturus Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,649
    Following your conditions 1, 2, and 3 above leads to developers having to either work forever on the game, or abandon it 6 months after it is finished. In theory there is an escape condition 4 that allows a developer to finish a game, release some final bug fixes, and then move on without the "abandoned" stigma. Where "move on" might be DLC, an expansion, a fresh new project, or even nothing at all.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  2. halipatsui Senior Engineer

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    1,253


    No engineering going on?
     
  3. LFCavalcanti Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,378
    Wrong, condition 2 talks about target functionality, if you specify: "Our target is to have stable multiplayer on vanilla game for 20 players". If they get stable for 40, great! They exceeded the expected target, if not, they failed as a business.

    Not setting targets allows them to fail under the excuses, that's a blatant problem on the Early Access model, developers can do whatever they want, when they want and if they want, that's not good business.

    Look at Subnautica, while it's developers are not that Indie(neither is KSH anymore), they defined where they were going with the game from the start and released out of Early Access couple months ago.

    You can bash me all you want, but not having clear answers to what functions and features will be in the final game is not "the KSH way", it's plain bad business, for them and for us consumers and player. But I guess it's a good strategy, since all this noise we cause here either analyzing, criticizing or praising them, takes away the fact they have 3 big project in their hand, failed in a previous one and for all real tangible evidence have a high chance to fail at another.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
  4. Arcturus Senior Engineer

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    1,649
    When I look at "2 - There must be a target on core features that need fixing, like for example multiplayer, make clear what is their target functionality.", it seems to be a communication condition that feeds into the timing on condition 3. There isn't anything stopping any hypothetical devs from always avoiding "abandoned" by setting low expected targets, or deciding that a feature isnt bugged and doesn't need fixing. It boils down to the subjective meaning of "core features that need fixing"? If something feels like "abandoned" to you, but all conditions are technically met, there is likely another condition out there.

    Subnautica did have the nice open development history on Trello. They did have to exclude certain initially planned features like multiplayer/co-op, procedurally generated maps, and permanently deformable/buildable terrain for performance/technical reasons.
     
  5. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    4,940

    The folks at Subnautica are organized better, have better relations with the community, and communicate MUCH better. I think they understand better how to interact with players during an early release. Hopefully Keen understands this better the next time around. If they put a little time and money into infrastructure BEFORE setting out on their next early-access venture all the better.
     
  6. Malware Master Engineer

    Messages:
    9,858
    Last edited: May 16, 2018
    • Like Like x 1
  7. Calaban Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    992
    I still hold out hope a few of us die-never admirers of this incarnation will be considered for the closed beta of the Next one.

    I bet KSH lul'd a bit at their earlier consideration to Early Access- the Pro's sounded so good:
    "make it early access to get thousands of beta testers and bug reporters essentially for free!"

    Without fully appreciating the true horror of the Con's:
    "#The Internet"
     
  8. LFCavalcanti Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,378
    No condition but a contract signed will guarantee anything besides a refund, I understand that, my point is about communication, that's the core issue with any business nowadays really... but when dealing with hundreds of thousands of players online in forums, Reddit, Youtube, you have to be smart. Xocliw seems a smart guy, but he is tied to the order he is given.
    Core features should always be the main theme of the game, for Space Engineers, a stable physics that allows all the blocks to perform their functionality with any other given block, either that or you define scenarios not applicable, like Subnautica did(more below).
    If KSH states their target is Multiplayer stable for 20 people with structures up to X triangles and X physics interactions per second, that's a clear target and if people bitch about it, it's their fault. If you don't specify anything and leave for fans to debate on any level of functionality, that's where things become subjective. They really don't go outside that bubble with the community for one reason: Divided mobs are easy to deal with.


    They NEVER promised multiplayer, the same as they stated to never implement tools which the sole purpose was to cause damage to the fauna in the game. While they didn't implement procedurally generated maps, they delivered a hell of an experience.

    The key words seems to be "focus". KSH have 3 projects, none of them progresses with the same pace The Fun Pimps(proportionally they have 1/10 of people) and Unknown Worlds Entertainment.

    Better be, because a fourth try wouldn't be well received given it's not only MeowCaptain who does crazy conspiracy videos.
    If they want to deliver Space Engineers 2 with a new engine and yada yada, the best damage control is to offer it under a reasonable discount to anyone who bought SE.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
  9. Helaton Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    208
    You can speak for your wallet, and I can speak for mine. For example, if they pitch a SE2 that will be built from the ground up for 24-32 player multiplayer (amongst other features), I will buy it Early Access alpha without looking back. The only thing I would ask is at least monthly or bimonthly progress report if no update is being released that month. Stinks to feel left in the dark on progress at times.

    I've enjoyed SE immensely and also ME. They have a very good (almost guaranteed) chance at opening up my early access wallet if it will be a solid progression from SE. They would continue to have that benefit of the doubt until they blow it by not delivering (as bad as the No Man's Sky debacle for example).
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. Dax23333 Junior Engineer

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    657
    Whatever happens I don't think they can do as bad as No Mans Sky on release. Keen is so much better in that regard because they're not overhyping things which is what did it for No Mans Sky. Granted, they're not telling us barely at the moment anything but still. Better than outright lying and i'm sure they'd get accused of that if some feature or other turned out to be impractical.

    As seen in Mareks block about the physics update (http://blog.marekrosa.org/2017/11/physics.html) keen has admitted what they cannot do before. The shared intertial tensor (ran into the problem described here just an hour ago actually) and the phantom forces sections (shock horror - this too in the same play session, must be poking a sleeping clang in the eye lol) in that blog. Really quite interesting how these problems crop up, and great that they did admit this along with an explanation of what the problems are. Unfortunatly with the physics these two issues are often the most destructive, shame they couldn't squash them completly but hey if it can't be done it can't be done...
     
  11. ViroMan Senior Engineer

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    1,123
    No Mans Sky on release was a complete flop but, from what I have read about it, they have taken that failure and turned it around. I have become slightly interested in possibly getting the game... even if it is horribly repetitive.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  12. LFCavalcanti Senior Engineer

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    1,378
    Agreed, to me is more a moral question as a consumer. We can't complain when developers don't deliver if we buy and support games with bad practices behind them. Greatest example of this I can think of is EA and the whole Star Wars micro-transactions. Because of this, I can't support a company that don't finish a product or have done questionable things like KSH did taking funds raised with SE sales to start GoodAI before finishing SE. This is the part I find more subjective, it's a moral question, and I understand that.

    What is not a moral question is how KSH behaves as a business, will they deliver a finished product? The Early Access was created to support development, but aiming at finished products being delivered.

    The benefit of the Doubt is something you reserve to someone who is about to commit the first mistake, what you are giving KSH is a leap of faith.

    Let me say something: On a top level analisys, No Man's Sky was at least delivered...:baby: no sorry, I can't defend that... biggest flop ever, their lead developer even went to talk shows, great chance to give everyone a better view on games, but no... they screwed up.

    I'll consider buying it when they deliver all the features promised, period.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. Sir_Kings_Alot Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    68
    What exactly is wrong with keen taking SE proceeds to fund another project.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  14. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    1,949
    You know, I take a simplistic pragmatic approach to anything I buy, whether it be a product such as a game or airline tickets. You pay your money and you take your chances. Sometimes things work out great, and other times not-so-great. Life isn’t full of guarantees.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  15. Tenzo Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    285
    I recommend it.

    There is another huge update coming up, I am watching for it to drop... Then I will once again do some trips around the universe. I'm not sure what the new update will feature but they are working on multi-player, so I am guessing it will make an entry in the next one. Don't expect anything like servers though, but maybe exploring and playing with a friend, something like that. I think there is already limited co-op but don't quote me as I haven't used that feature. When they added the limited co-op they said 'this was only the beginning', so I wage this next big update will expand on that.

    These guys have been hard at work on the game ever since the release fiasco, and they've really done a lot of stuff with the game since. The only thing that I feel gets really repetitive is the lava biomes, they just share too many assets. No matter how many lava planets I've visited, they sort of look too similar.

    But there are awe inspiring moments in the game that you just can't expect, like encountering a huge life form when you don't expect to, crossing a new valley and ending up in some weird lilly pad/mushroom valley with an awesome sunset in your eyes. The game is full of stuff like that, so if you like to explore it's definitely not repetitive in the discovery aspect. There's always something new to see. (It's awesome eye candy for a fancy rig)

    And the photo mode is really nice to play with, I spend most of the time playing space photographer in game. Whether documenting new flying species to taking that "perfect screenshot" of a sunrise or a conflict scene, it's definitely not a waste of money if you are into that kind of thing. (Photo pauses the game and you can place the sun anywhere or pick just the perfect angle, plus you can use filters on the scene. Pretty cool.)
     
  16. X_Wing_Ian Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    61
    So this happened

    [SE] flexx-This pastTuesday at 8:28 AM

    Hi Engineers, We plan to run a public test of new multiplayer improvements from 16.5.2018 (10:00 CET) to 17.5.2018 (18:00 CET). Keen Software House admins will be managing the test for the whole period and we'd like to get your feedback about the "work in progress" version of the game. The upcoming version focuses on a number of Space Engineers multiplayer improvements, so we hope you'll enjoy it and that you'll provide us valuable feedback before the actual release. We are aware of many unfinished things and bugs in this version. If they are not multiplayer related, please ignore them. We are going to fix them anyway, but we didn’t want to postpone this public multiplayer test any longer. For providing feedback, please use this questionnaire. https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSdOUjvd2HTGD9KqygHA9Zma96BlnPz75Ygzhq7eqaRwSbno1A/viewform Steam Beta branch password will be provided when testing starts


    [SE] flexx-Yesterday at 8:38 AM

    There is now active testing going on for the new server update. You will need to go into the beta settings in your steam game settings and enter the below information.
    Steam branch: mptest, Password: nt7WuDw9kdvB, Server: MP testing You can join the below servers for testing.
    Owner: KSH (Official) Location: Prague, Czech Republic steam://connect/86.49.189.202:27016 - Creative steam://connect/86.49.189.197:27016-Survival
    Owner: PhoenixX Location: Victoria, Australia steam://connect/119.17.149.228:28795 -creative
    Owner:Xero Location: East US/Canada (Xeon Processor) steam://connect/158.69.116.89:27777 -survival
    Owner: X_Wing_Ian Location: East US/Canada (i7 Processor) steam://connect/144.217.11.143:26994 - Creative
    this will enf in 10 hours

    This is on the KSH discord in the SE MP channel
     
  17. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    463
    So KSH haven't ab... finalized the product yet? I watched like half of 2 videos from disreputable sources which said they had, instead of reading the official posts on what KSH was actually doing. Hunh.

    The Beta Inception servers only had 16 people and the sim dipped to 0.7 once while I was on it. This is such BS. I paid like 25 whole dollars and I expect moar from SE!

    SE should be like using a Creative Suite in Virtual Reality with Newtonian AND Quantum physics, with (insert arbitrarily large number here) players simultaneously, and run smoothly regardless of what potato I'm using it on! Keen did use the word sandbox once, I think, so I'm right even though I read the disclaimer saying 'experience will change in early access'!

    Arguments to the contrary are a waste of time because even though I've clearly demonstrated an exceptional capacity for rational/critical thinking I will just pick the one sentence I can misread and counter-argue pointlessly.

    Here are some links that I think clearly support my ego:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_is_not_a_reliable_source
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2018
    • Funny Funny x 3
  18. LFCavalcanti Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,378
    Legally speaking, nothing. Morally speaking... if you paid a shop $500 for a smartphone, but instead of buying the smartphone on the distributor and delivering it to you, they bought a TV and installed it in their own shop for marketing purposes.

    Agreeing or not with this action is a personal rational, I wouldn't be bothered if they did not only started GoodAI but also used that money to start Medieval Engineers(to raise even more money), all that WITHOUT finishing Space Engineers. Had they finished SE, I would call that a smart business move.
    --- Automerge ---
    @Burstar Power to your freedom of speech! The same liberty you have to post like you did now, you can't argue others have the same exact right.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 4
  19. Dax23333 Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    657
    I assume this 3rd project you're talking about is GoodAI? That was funded by Mareks deep pockets, and what he does with his money is his concern. One of the benifits of starting a company like he did is raking in vast amounts of cash, and he could just as well have spent it on a big mansion, private jet, lifetime supply of top quaility biscuits and wine etc etc etc etc. So what would you want? A castle made of shortbread for Marek, or some actually productive project? Sure, it could have gone back into Keen but it was gone before it got anywhere near GoodAI.

    I fail to understand how this example is relevent to the situation of (early access) games. Could you explain? From what I see this example is about a shop that does not ever actually sell you a phone and simply spends the money you gave them to expand its fraudulent activities. And last I checked, I had a game called Space Engineers in my steam library and it was rather good despite not being finished.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. LFCavalcanti Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,378
    Yes, GoodAI.
    That project was funded with some millions that came from KSH, there is no other fund raise, sorry to burst your bubble, but if you believe all that money came from Marek's own pocket... I'm sorry for you.

    I don't get your meaning here... those funds could be reserved to GoodAI, hell they could even invest a portion in GoodAI, but opening a second project to fund the first with more money was a bad decision in the long run.

    You have an unfinished product, that while there is no rule that requires a set release date, one of the objectives and agreements in EA is that you help that game be developed and delivered. I really don't understand this whole argument that just because you enjoy the game now, it means it is complete, that's why I said in previous posts here you need target functionality for each feature, so everyone understand when and how far the game has progressed.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  21. Dax23333 Junior Engineer

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    657
    http://blog.marekrosa.org/2015/07/announcing-goodai-keen-software-house_7.html in case you had forgotten.

    From that blog, there you go.
    So yes, there is other fund raise. Marek could spend that on whatever he wanted. Granted, he only has that money because of Keen and the blog does not specify any other investors and I suspect it simply could not if there were any.

    Also, I did not say the game was complete.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  22. Sir_Kings_Alot Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    68
    @LFCavalcanti Your entire analogy seems to hinge on the idea that SE is abandoned, this is simply not true and therefore renders your analogy non applicable.

    As far as the facts are concerned, regardless of how they have conducted themselves on the communication front, Keen has yet to violate the good faith of early access.
     
  23. Tenzo Apprentice Engineer

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    285
    If Marek was in a school play, the play did really well, so everyone gave him the proceeds to buy the crew a pizza and he used the proceeds to go buy himself a model trainset.

    Money doesn't come out of nowhere. Marek is not a multi-millionaire, and if he is, it wasn't an inheritance. If you don't think that 10m USD was part of Keen you are letting other things cloud your judgement.

    It's very common practice for companies that develop a net overhead to sink that money into what is typically R&D (research and development).

    What's not cool, is to be throwing around money while the teams of SE have programmers who are gone and the ones behind are trying to patch code and fix bugs from employees that no longer work there. SE development has been stagnant for a while now. That visual update they did was on a "deadline". And another visual update major in a string of visual updates. ME is not going anywhere soon. The studio have changed how they do updates in order to make the workload easier to handle. Even though they used a previous framework like clockwork since launch.

    The team is rushing to finish and release Space Engineers even though one can hardly consider it feature complete. They plain up stated that if you want more features, it will have to go into Space Engineers II. On the first Q&A livestream of "No, there are no plans". The one with the cat.

    But you know, some years back, Marek sank a cool 10mil into another "childhood dream" project. You know, like Space Engineers was a "childhood dream" and Medieval Engineers was another of his "childhood dreams". He is reckless with money and one of these days I fear Keen as a whole will suffer because of his decisions (if that hasn't happened already). Because the early access bubble has burst. The influx of early access titles that used EA to fund their ongoing development is gone. Even though that was against the early access guidelines, teams used it like a kickstarter.

    Just a few days ago, I found out another one of my EA titles that I bought has gone under after development ceased for 6 months. They ran out of money. Could no longer pay their employees and they went on to find new jobs. Really nice title, incredible art style, showed a lot of promise. But they didn't sell enough during EA as they intended in order to pull in the last amount of revenue to finish it. The developer said that himself. Users recommended he use the Nintendo platform as Valve isn't what it used to be. It's over-saturated with EA.

    This business is cut throat and you are telling me Marek pulled 10m USD out of thin air, his "deep pockets" to launch another "dream" project. When I first read that, it simply gave me pause, I was in the mindset that "oh well, so it's not update news", that's okay. It was the height of ME hype and I was caught in it. The titles are doing well. After all there is an update every week, so what. Now, I don't think that so much. And yeah, every time I hear about GoodAI, it triggers me.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  24. Dax23333 Junior Engineer

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    657
    He pulled it out of KEEN obviously. I clearly said that he had that money because of KEEN. But that is one of the benifits of being a CEO of a start up like he is - you can do that.

    He could just as easily have spent it on anything he wanted. Would you be less triggered to hear about Mareks private island he could have bought instead?
     
  25. Tenzo Apprentice Engineer

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    285
    Nah, I would have been more okay with a private island. :)
     
  26. Malware Master Engineer

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    9,858
    Clearly he is. We've shown documentation in other threads that he indeed used his own personal money to fund GoodAI. That it's money he's earned from Keen, that seems obvious but so what? It's still his own personal money. It's like you being told that you can't use the money you've earned from your dayjob to buy yourself a new TV. He did not pull money from Keen that was intended for development. Oh, and by the way, even if he did they still would have had plenty. The games have sold pretty well over the years. It's complete and utter bullshit. Of course he can, and of course there's absolutely nothing wrong with it and claiming anything else is the pinnacle of unfair and tells a lot more of the people making this assertion than Marek.

    For one it tells that they're using assumptions, guesswork and speculation to fuel their anger, without a single speck of evidence. They just assume foul play.

    Sorry, it's late and I'm tired, and unfairness really irks me.



    Oh, and frankly... even if he did pull the money from Keen, clearly it has affected nothing. It just doesn't matter. At all.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2018
    • Agree Agree x 5
    • Like Like x 1
  27. sioxernic Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,535
    I know it is unrelated to the thread, I have no where else to post it, but I've been doing 4 years of posting -.-'
    Not going to start a new thread for something as irrelevant...
    Blame the keen achievement system
     
  28. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    1,949
    Preach it, brother! :tu:
     
  29. Tenzo Apprentice Engineer

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    285
    What's so unfair about expecting someone to finish a project they started before starting something new?

    I'm not an investor in Keen, expecting a share in the company that I bought to increase in value. Nor is the company a publicly traded company.

    I paid this person, who said it was his dream to work on this "game", in order to support said product, to finish and release it. Then, in the middle of the project, they turn around and turn their attention onto something else, in a completely different software space.

    It's common decency to finish something you started, for which the consumer has paid you in good faith, to deliver said product, before you pack up your things and move to a different country to help orphans.

    Yes, he can do whatever he wants with his time and money, but it doesn't make it ethical or decent from the viewpoint of the consumer.

    A person working at McDonalds for example, has no say whether or not McDonalds decides to sell burgers or fries tomorrow. They earned their pay based on their work, whether they flipped burgers or fries. It is not an implicit contract without an *end*. The contract ends when their work day ends, whether they flipped burgers or fries. Upon the conclusion of that contract, that money *then* becomes private money. They can do whatever they want with it, because they fulfilled their obligations.

    Mr. Rosa fulfilled none of his obligations before taking his personal time and attention, and sinking it into something else.

    Before *any* money becomes "private money", the contract upon which you received said money, must conclude.

    The ink is not even dry on said (common sense and decency) contract before he's moved on to something else. He hasn't finished anything he promised.

    Mr. Marek Rosa has not finished Space Engineers, Medieval Engineers, before packing up and starting work on GoodAI, a *private* project. Expecting him to be accountable for that is somehow being unfair to Marek Rosa? Um, what? And all of the sudden, that somehow also makes the company's moneys irrelevant, too? Because the company's CEO chose to pursue frivolous pursuits? What if your government took taxes for social security, and instead funneled that money into private jets and extended vacations for their employees? Would that make it irrelevant money, too?

    If not wanting to be walked on as a consumer makes someone unfair, then I guess call me unfair. You know what's unfair? Xocli in a T-shirt holding a cat, next to a man in an expensive suit and pants, talking down to users who just want simple features in a game, like ladders and maybe a female face on an engineer.

    Or you know, holding him to his own previous blogs, where he talked about bringing compound blocks to Space Engineers, which he doesn't even remember, calling it an "interesting idea". Like it wasn't an idea he pitched in the first place.

    I think Xocli and the rest of the people working at Keen, you know, the ones who do the real work, day in, day out, deserve far more in terms of money, than Mr. Rosa. Unfortunately, it is not so. Mr. Rosa decides where the money goes, and the only place I can tell where it has gone, is to line his pockets and fund his frivolous pursuits.

    Now that, that is unfair.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 5
  30. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    3,368
    You have to understand that it was originally called Manual mode by Keen. It's simply a mode where you don't have the magical powers you have in Creative. Initially even Keen staff could see that there was nothing "survival" about the mode. They got talked into the name change by fans, but they never seemed to waiver (at least to me) from the "survival" mode being just the "Not Creative" mode. Unfortunately, by using that word they unwittingly brought a whole world of expectations they never had any intention of fulfilling. At best Keen only confirmed that the game would have survival elements. Never claimed it was a survival game. Always claimed it was a sandbox game.

    How about no one, anywhere on the planet, in any kind of remotely business related venture of any kind, throughout history, has ever waited until a current venture is complete before starting the next one.

    Seriously, why would you do that? Why would you wait? You've got a full staff of people, many of whom are not needed for project A any more that have all the time in the world to work on project B. Wait! NO! Everyone works on PROJECT A until the last digit has been coded, checked and verified. We should give our competitors every chance we can to get ahead of us. We can worry about catching up later. You know, when all those people doing nothing on Project A finally get a chance to work on project B.

    I'm glad you're not in charge of any project I'm involved with ;).
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
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