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SE - Abandoned/Finished

Discussion in 'General' started by Dragonspride, Apr 1, 2018.

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Should Keen Release SE as open source if they abandon it?

  1. I agree

    49 vote(s)
    53.8%
  2. I dissagree

    34 vote(s)
    37.4%
  3. I don't know

    8 vote(s)
    8.8%
Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Malware Master Engineer

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    9,664
    You mean noone with decision power does.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  2. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    3,212
    So, then, how do we get @Petr.Minarik promoted? :D
     
  3. Sarekh Senior Engineer

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    1,182
    He would not be happy. Never seen a programmer who was really happy doing a game designer's work or vice versa. They both got valid opinions but there's a reason for them being in their jobs.

    Let's hunt a GD down and force him or her to actually play the game for a while. They will flood KSH with ideas, trust me ^^
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. Malware Master Engineer

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    Whoops ... You just tagged the guy who's only outranked by Marek himself, I don't think he needs a promotion ..
    --- Automerge ---
    Oh I wouldn't say that :p
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  5. Petr Beranek Developer Staff

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    206
    I really love when people use generalizations. :D
    --- Automerge ---
    Don't know actually, he definitely likes programming, but dunno about designing.
    --- Automerge ---
    I think it is not only about "if person would like to do it" (which is still very important), but also about the actual thing if that person would even be good in said thing...

    From my point of view, I, for example, know things about programming, but have completely no knowledge about design nor having the experience in it.
    I think it is always better to have a designer who actually studied something about design and has some experience in it. Also it usually does not work the way that if person is good in one thing, he will definitely be good in completely different thing too.
     
  6. Malware Master Engineer

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    It also does not mean that one can't be good at a completely different thing ;)

    Not having knowledge or experience about a thing doesn't mean one can't have a potential of being good at a thing. Being good at one thing does not exclude being good at another thing as well. I see people being good at multiple things all the time :)
     
  7. Petr Beranek Developer Staff

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    206
    I think that such things are good, but problem is that they don't change much things from gameplay point of view. Yes, it makes ships look better from the inside, but for gameplay itself it does not matter if they are in game.

    One of the problems I can think of right now is the cost of creating such props.
    Creating high quality model cost money and time. I can create some props in blender in 10 minutes, but it will have quality that definitely cannot be compared to quality of our current models. It is not only about model, but creation of textures, LODs, keeping triangle count as low as possible and other things (definitely forgot creation of design)... it takes time (which in this case equals money).

    You might say that we could add some popular modded props, but still it would take time, as most are not in the art style of our models, are not in necessary quality or are in too high quality.

    What I want to say it would have no additional value to game itself for certain amount (I think there will be a lot of players) of players (I for example like more the survival aspect of games, not much fan of building nice looking interiors... mostly because it usually has no purpose other than looking good). Creation of props would keep artists busy for quite long time as the would need to create sufficient amount (it would be strange if they gave you chairs, but no table)... and they still have things to do. Even though you not see new models does not mean they are just sitting here doing nothing... So it would also delay other stuff they need to do, so it would delay actual release of the game, cost money and it would benefit only to some players.

    What I would do is to create some DLC. Like pack of decorative blocks and put it on steam, so who wants it, can buy and use it. But of course such thing would have to be done AFTER the game itself is finally released. If I recall correctly, the last time there was a cosmetic thing added to SE for purchase (Ghost skin), the community went insane even though no one had to pay anything. It was up to you if you wanted to buy that skin. Yet lot of people went completely crazy about it and started with hateful reviews on steam of "how do we dare to sell things for unfinished game" and that "we are turning SE into usuall microtransaction game" and "if we add some loot boxes. Better if you need to buy keys to open them" and such things.

    So, I think it healed some devs (I am definitely one of them) from thinking it is good idea to provide any cosmetic items (People still forgets that we are actually paid for work. If there is lot of work to be done outside of what was planned, yet it is added for free, the work still has to be paid for... so Keen is at loss. )


    PS Don't take it as any official statement of anything. This is what I think, I actually don't know the real reasons why props were never added to game, but this is what seems as the mos reasonable to me.
     
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  8. Malware Master Engineer

    Messages:
    9,664
    That's where we differ in opinion. This entire game is based upon players creating their own gameplay. That's the entire concept of a sandbox game. Such blocks are part of creating a living world, to create immersion which I would definitely consider part of gameplay. The game lets you create space ships, it is designed around a player avatar in first person (for the most part), and yet it only truly include a way to create ship exteriors, it doesn't really include ways to create interiors for said avatar - not without having to rely on amateur content from third parties.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  9. Petr Beranek Developer Staff

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    206
    But you do agree that:
    1. it would benefit only fraction of community.
    2. It would cost money/time only to create visual stuff that would only enable things to look pretty, but has same function as placing there armor block.
    3. Work on cosmetic block would not get SE anywhere closer to release
    4. People are already getting mad that Se has not yet been released
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2018
  10. Malware Master Engineer

    Messages:
    9,664
    1. No, I do not agree with this at all.
    2. No. It would cost money and time, yes, but it would add things that people will actually use. A sandbox game is all about creating your own worlds. That's hard to do if you don't have the tools to do it and again, we shouldn't have to rely on mods for the basics.
    3 and 4 are related, and those people needs a reality check. Those people don't understand that faster release will get them less of a game. If they understood that faster release means a worse game, they wouldn't say a word. Software development takes time, and as opposed to most other games - even other early access games - they've been privy to a lot more of development in SE. Most other early access games I've seen have reached beta before they even go early access. SE was barely alpha.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  11. Petr Beranek Developer Staff

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    206
    Yet those are the people who yell and complain the loudest. And there is still more and more people complaining, so there is probably no other way.

    I think about first SE release more like of an Proof of Concept than actual game. I don't remember the actual number, but wasn't it after 7 months of development? Some games take way more than 5 years to develop.
     
  12. Malware Master Engineer

    Messages:
    9,664
    Then we know who to actually blame when the game is released in a lackluster fashion, won't we. This has happened before. Planets too were released too soon because people were screaming for them. I just don't get it. One would think this would be perfectly logical.
     
  13. Petr Beranek Developer Staff

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    206
    Well... I honestly don't care is my ship has interior, so unless I am not part of community, then only a fraction of community cares about it. (yes, that may be 999999/1000000 of people, but still a fraction :D )
     
  14. Malware Master Engineer

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    9,664
    Pffft. You're a Keen dev, you're automatically excluded :p

    FINE, fine, you're right.

    Still claiming that it's a significant fraction though :p
     
  15. Petr Beranek Developer Staff

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    206
    Are you saying some people are not significant? That's discrimination!!! :D
    --- Automerge ---
    Well, but SE was never intended to be ship interior designer... I understand unusable props in games like House Flipper (or how it is called), I understand usable props in any game (like vending machine for food, sink for water, table, for eating/storing some things, fridge for storing food, bed for sleeping, wardrobe for changing skins, coffee machine for coffee (temporary energy boost) and so on), these would make really good sense to me and I would love them. But unusable props just for decoration... I don't care much about them. Sorry :D
    --- Automerge ---
    PS For me useless prop is just a waste of time and space even though it looks good. As long as it does not provide any use, boost or interaction, it is useless (aside from painting on the wall, statue or fishtank (but you have too feed the fish), they are probably just for decoration even in real life, these I could probably suffer :D )
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
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  16. Malware Master Engineer

    Messages:
    9,664
    @Petr Beranek Yes I get you don't get it, but lots of us do ;) Ask Aragath what he thinks ;)



    I mean, just seeing what people build - with interiors, by repurposing what they can to simulate these decorative things we're talking about, or using mods to fulfill what the game should at least provide a minimum of. Honestly, man, take a look at the bases that are provided as vanilla. Even Aragath is doing it. Even he has to repurpose things that really don't look like what he wants it to be. He's on your team. That alone should provide some evidence to why these things are actually important.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2018
  17. Petr Beranek Developer Staff

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    206
    Yeah, ask level designer if he wants more props... That's like asking child if he wants another ice cream. :D Nice try :D
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
  18. X_Wing_Ian Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    61
    Someone say ice cream give me some.
    Lol
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
  19. Malware Master Engineer

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    9,664
    @Petr Beranek That was my point. Your own level designer doesn't have enough tools to do his job.

    You're practically making my argument for me, thank you :p


    Come on now; are you seriously saying you don't see the problem with that? Frankly I would consider it an embarassment to be told to create things like bases, buildings and ships and not be given even the absolute minimum to do that.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2018
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. Petr Beranek Developer Staff

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    206
    He has tools, but who would say no, when there is possibility to have more... This is more case of "always wanting more" not "not having enough for work".
     
  21. Malware Master Engineer

    Messages:
    9,664
    @Petr Beranek And I disagree. Desiring the minimum is not "always wanting more". Not having anything is not "always wanting more". He does not have the minimum.

    But I see this argument is pointless. You're blind to the issue.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  22. TenshouYoku Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    103
    Working with pistons and rotors currently and I am sitting here thinking why there aren't any slanted blast doors/reduced hitbox piston-friendly sloped blocks instead of square-only ones, nor there are any bigger airtight hangar doors that are not mods. (please stop telling me to use mods because it was precisely the lack of mods caused a fighter duel to be delayed from immediate to maybe next time today)

    Interiors are also a problem, though. We have dudes that are building interiors with rotor subgrids and we all know that usually wouldn't end up very pretty.
     
  23. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    460
    Well, at least you see what everyone wants clearly enough to tell us.

    It seemed obvious to me that the blocks in SE were a basic amount. Just enough to do everything the devs needed to test. I've always assumed, hopefully correctly, that once the bugs were ironed out that simple additions to the limited set of blocks would appear. This would cost time and money and so it was clear to me that is why it was put on the back burner.

    My assumptions have some support though. Marek has stated that after the MP patch the team would be working on a survival one. This is where I hope all the missing blocks and core imbalances in the game would be fixed.

    That said, I feel like some have forgotten that the core design philosophy of the game was akin to Legos in Space. There is something to be said for not having cups and plates in the game. The lack of detail blocks forces creativity much more so than being spoon fed the artwork of someone else.

    What is missing exactly that needs to be added (art block-wise) that already hasn't been agreed to? I would like to see a 1x1 half corner block, and half-slabs in the centre of a block like blast doors only not 4000lbs each. Paintable wireframe versions of the armour blocks would be nice too.
     
  24. Petr Beranek Developer Staff

    Messages:
    206
    Hmmm minimum... Which brought me to an idea... It may be a derailing of a topic (but in this case it might be a good thing).

    For everyone minimum is something completely different. I for example can live with only those blocks that are in SE. Maybe I would like to see 1x1x1 small batteries and coal/methane burning generators (to make easier to acquire power sources, that would have easy to get fuel, would produce energy but with high consumption of fuel + making uranium really rare, as it is pretty easy to acquire tons of fissilable uranium which shouldnt be common nor safe (critical mass of weapon grade uranium is 20 kg if I remember correctly)) those are of course functional block, not decorative.... But I don't need anything decorative.

    I would like to know, what you all think that is minimum and that what should be added. I aim mostly for decorative blocks, but functional can be good to know too.

    So If you have spare time, then create here a post with list of decorative, posibly functional blocks, that are the minimum for you (best if they are separated to decorative and functional).

    I will definitely not promis anything, but I will save those lists and if one day the time comes and new blocks will be on a plan, I will mention those lists when discussing it. Especialy things that appear in more lists.

    Probably it would be better to create new thread, but I am lazy and don't expect that many lists... (I expect one or two, definitely not more than 3) so I think it is ok to stay here. :-D
     
  25. Malware Master Engineer

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    9,664
    • Bunk beds, for all intents and purposes a variant of cryopod.
    • A simple table - maybe designed to be possible to combine in order to create different sizes. Either designed to work with the current seats, or with a bench or something to go alongside it.

    Borderline, these are technically not part of the general minimum but they sure would be very nice for people like me who loves to build small and compact:
    • A chair/desk combination thing for personal quarters.
    • A set of thin walls akin to the catwalks, and a door to fit them. Actually I could probably live quite nicely with there just being added a thin door to fit with the catwalks.
    • A variant of this wall above with a built-in light and/or just a variant of the catwalk block with a built-in light.
    • A variant of the interior block with a built-in light.

    See? I'm not asking for too much. Pretty sure someone talented (like Aragath) could give you a better answer though.

    Also, trickssy hobbitsses want to hide the question so there won't be too many responses... :p
     
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  26. Sarekh Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,182
    Okay, okay, wish lists... I am happy to provide - but in case something goes wrong: the community managers will haunt you for this, just saying so I can say I told you so ^^


    Decorative:

    • Bed / bunk (if functional: cryopod function)
    • Table (if functional: storage function)
    • desk with chair
    • Thin interior wall
    • Shelf (if functional: storage function)
    • Interior Wall block with light
    • light armour block with light

    Functional:

    • Upgrade module for gyro
    • Upgrade module for thrusters
    • more weaponry blocks
    • T part for conveyors
    • conveyor-Vent
    • dedicated recycling unit
    • larger thruster variant
    • smaller and larger aithright hangar door variant
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  27. Thrak Junior Engineer

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    536
    Many, many players like to do something with their creations once they complete them. Keen would be silly, from a financial perspective, to ignore those of us who see "gameplay" in SE to be beyond building. Especially if Marek's plans are as long-term as he hinted in those interviews this past spring.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  28. Petr Beranek Developer Staff

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    206
    Well, you can spread it if you want. I am not that savvy in forum technologies, So I have no idea what would be a good way to get more answers (Not sure if creation of new thread would atract that many people, dunno what category could be most visited (and where this should go :D ) + not sure if there is way to increase visibility of thread). I mostly live in this thread and few last change log threads. :D
    --- Automerge ---
    Ehm... that would be what? We got air vents that can be attached to conveyors... we have connector for "venting" stuff out... Can't imagine anything else you could have meant. :D
     
  29. beelzerob Apprentice Engineer

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    429
    If you really want responses you can use later, start a thread for this. This is so buried most people won't notice.

    Decorative:
    Water
    Ladders

    Functional:
    Hinges
    Rails
     
  30. Petr Beranek Developer Staff

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    206
    Not sure what you were trying to say/suggest by that whole sentence(whole post, not just quoted part).... probably long day and not enough sleep made Petr a dull boy. :D Can you elaborate more? :D
    + As you are saying financial perspective, what financial perspective there is?

    Hmm... today I have a really dull and inquisite mood. :D Today I should not play Factorio for that long. :D
    --- Automerge ---
    Like water block? Hmm... probably would require lot of jelly added to it to remain in a block shape. :D
    --- Automerge ---

    As I said. I am lazy. :D Let's see how many people will answer here, if it will be worthy, I may start it elsewhere.
    --- Automerge ---
    For me it is really simple. Beds are spawnpoint for player as there were no medical bays in medieval times. :D Also in SE you can sleep in cryochamber... It would be very deep... freezed :D sleep.
    With tables.. and other furnishing such as tables wardrobe chairs and so on... ME is more focused on house/castle building, but SE is more focused on technical and industrial things and on vehicles and ships. Not much on house and overall interior building.
    --- Automerge ---
    No? It would be probably very hard to make wooden space ship... If they implemented gunpowder (Which is a thing I am always poking Deepflame with, end of 15th and begining of 16th century is best part, not only because of really nice plate armors, but also because of firearms), we could probably use enough gunpowder to blast ourselves with enough force to reach the orbit... our character would probably be dispersed in that orbit all around the planet, but technically we would be there. :D


    PS having such beauties like on the picture below in ME would make that game so much better. :D (btw the top one is mine, now you can start adoring it, I won't be stopping you. :D ).


    --- Automerge ---
    What the ....??? Why do my post keep appending to my last one even though someone made a post inbetween? Am I going... insaner?
     
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