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SE - Abandoned/Finished

Discussion in 'General' started by Dragonspride, Apr 1, 2018.

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Should Keen Release SE as open source if they abandon it?

  1. I agree

    49 vote(s)
    53.8%
  2. I dissagree

    34 vote(s)
    37.4%
  3. I don't know

    8 vote(s)
    8.8%
Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    463
    Try reading the whole post before calling other people broken.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
  2. Malware Master Engineer

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    9,861
    @Burstar I did read the whole post. I don't agree with you. Feel free to point out something I misunderstood, I'll apologize in a heartbeat.

    I stand by - and will repeat my viewpoint that people who feel the need to expect foul play are broken and I sincerely feel sorry for them. If you choose to take that label onto yourself, that's your choice.
     
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  3. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    463
    The problem is you're taking a narrowminded view of the point. The 'failure', as you specifically mentioned, is an inability to do that which was declared possible given the resources claimed are needed to do it'. Therefore, to fail is to break the tautology. A good definition of dishonesty if ever there was one.

    As for people who anticipate foul play being 'broken' and worthy of pity: I call it 'capable of critical thinking', 'having a memory capacity greater than a goldfish', 'experienced', and not 'naive or gullible'.

    The reality is you've shown greater moral character by keeping your mouth shut regarding what your supposed project is. Unfortunately, that also means that someone else with a similar idea willing to risk moral certainty and publicize their intent will likely get more support, and resources.... At the risk of the investors rational ire if they fail.

    "I failed my marriage because I slipped and fell onto another woman in her bedroom. At least I didn't break my vows!"

    I'm not arguing that if meteors fell from the sky and smashed all the servers at the office and on the cloud backups, and simultaneously the global market collapsed because of the disaster, that a Dev would be considered dishonest in this case. The fail I'm talking about infers 'due to their fault'
    --- Automerge ---
    Actually, no it doesn't.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2018
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  4. Malware Master Engineer

    Messages:
    9,861
    @Burstar There's a huge difference between expecting foul play to happen and being aware that it might happen.

    There's a huge difference between anticipating foul play (which is the word you use now) and expecting foul play.

    Software development isn't that predictable. So with this definition all software engineering projects are per definition lies.
    --- Automerge ---
    Then that must be a language barrier issue, and it most certainly might be, my English isn't perfect - because my understanding of the word does.
    --- Automerge ---
    Actually, I'm not gonna waste any more time on this argument. It's pointless. You don't understand what I'm trying to say, and it would seem I can't understand what you are trying to say. We're worlds apart. The very fact that you try to pull naiveté (or whatever that word is) into it proves that. And as I've stated earlier, I don't argue just to argue. So I will stop right now.
     
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  5. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    463
    [​IMG]
    --- Automerge ---
    http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/expect
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
  6. Morloc Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    264
    Sometimes those meteors fall from the ground.

    They mostly come at night though. Mostly.


    -Morloc
     
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  7. odizzido Junior Engineer

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    684
    I expect foul play, lies, the use of slavery and torture, murder, and anything and everything companies can do to make money. Not from keen, but from large older companies like nestle. It's true though according to the best available information so I don't consider myself broken.
     
  8. Arcturus Senior Engineer

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    1,649
    Current data indicates there are ~10 investors in Keen Software House. I assume except for the current SE developers in the bunch that they don't automatically get a copy of the game. In many countries, sales of securities/investments to the public is regulated, and involves much more paperwork than a Steam sale. Early Access or Kickstarter = not investment. Actual Investor = net negative fun related to the game.
     
  9. zachusaman Trainee Engineer

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    75
    Imagine explaining to investors that you've been working on a game for the last 5 years, you aren't charging 60 dollars (typical AAA price), and that you really dont have any DLC. I can assume these investors would not be impressed/amused by this.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

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    463
    Well it would depend on whether the investment is meeting or exceeding the return expectations projected in the initial offering.

    To continue the English lessons: 'disagree' does not mean 'I don't understand'.
     
  11. zachusaman Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    75
    Absolutely, and I imagine they are getting a decent return on their investment but the game is 5 years old and just checking steam stats (which is probably not that reliable considering its 11am on a workday) Space Engineers isn't even in the top 100 played games. Same with Twitch viewing. The problem I see is that they want more of a return. Sure you could keep investing in this game, but its been going on for the lats 5 years and purchases are on the decline. Why keep investing here when you can invest in generic shooter royale #34 which is selling for 60 bucks and make uber dollars in a year, not including the 30 dollar season pass and exclusive golden jock strap DLC?

    And in regards to your English lesson, people might disagree because they don't understand. Unless you are clearly communicating a good plan, milestones, etc, have investors clearly communicating what they don't understand (unlikely given peoples pride) they will probably just say no and move on to other investments.

    Perhaps I'm being too cynical though
     
  12. Sarekh Senior Engineer

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    1,196
    Friend, perhaps this is the language barrier again, but you are coming off as awefully condescending at times. This would be one instance. Now, I think you are trying to clarify your point of view - but it looks like you are simply mocking someone who gave you the benefit of the doubt by admitting he could be getting you wrong because he's no native tongue. Especially so as he's excused himself from the conversation. I think most of us non-native speakers get the gist and can dabble around with English words
     
  13. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    4,955
    I think the gaming industry is coming to terms with early access. The folks who bought into Star Citizen are really feeling the burn as the hundreds or thousands of dollars that they've spent on future potential have been nerfed and the whole game has simply devolved into pay-to-play. Early access is a double-edged sword where the developers feel constant pressure and expectations from the user base and the user base feels let down when features are nerfed and game structure is changed contrary to previous builds and promoted releases.

    I think the early access model is valid... but it has to be taken seriously and with much consideration and planning. You just can't swap out investor money for early-access money. The balance of power is completely different between those with the money and those doing to work. Caveat Emptor.
     
  14. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    463
    Ah, but can you dictate with authority what English words mean? I may sound a bit condescending, but am I the only one? Really? Set aside your ESL sympathies for a moment and consider how annoying it might be for tourists to 'correct' you on your native language.
     
  15. Sarekh Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,196
    Actually, I think any language is a complex and wonderful thing. I am German and I'd say I cannot dictate with authority what all German words mean. They mean alot, depending on context, recipient and intention and they can vary. And to my understanding, so can English words. But you know that, of course. We've gathered here, in the online forum of a Czech company, with people from Great Britain, Ireland, France, The United States, Italy, Brazil, Finland, South Africa, Kenia, Austria, Japan, China, Russia, Poland, Ukraine, Germany and many more and we write in English. Because it is an International language, because most speak it. Because it's pretty easy to learn (not to master, mind you).

    If you are getting into semantics on this forum you're bound to converse with non-natives at some point. You can either be annoyed by them and their intention of getting through an argument with you in your language or you can embrace the fact that it's pretty awesome that we can all communicate so easily and try to overlook things that might be annoying to you because it's your first language.

    I love it when people from other countries learn German and would love to be able to speak more languages, always being aware of the fact that they and me would always at some level be not as perfect as a native speaker.
     
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  16. Thrak Junior Engineer

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    536
    Making comments like these on a website for a computer game from publishers based in the Czech Republic? You don't just sound condescending. You sound like an arrogant ass. It's an ugly attitude and not worthy of you. Chill. Move on.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    463
    Again, for clarity: I do not have issues with ESL speakers, nor when they misunderstand or use an improper word.

    I take issue with ESL teaching English to native speakers. Especially when the lesson is incorrect.

    I would not presume to visit another nation and start instructing natives on what their words actually mean. That would come across as.... What's the word? Patronizing? No, that's not it.... Rude? Close, but a little strong I think. Oh yeah! Condescending! That's the word I was looking for.

    Good advice Thrak. The doors over there.
     
  18. Sarekh Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,196
    You were in an argument about semantics in your primary argument. You both used keywords that have complex connotations and nuances. What's one supposed to do? Not explain or defend his point of view because he's not a 100% pro? Just because you were brought up in that language does not mean you hold any rights to it. Malware was trying to work on your level and argue his point against yours. You catapulted this out of the boundaries of the argument by using English "lessons" in order to depreciate his standpoint. This is either the result of you being overly focused on the semantics and thus condescending. Or it is, and that would be much, much worse, intentional - and ad hominem.

    You now got two responses from bystanders calling you out on that - you can either contemplate on this and get back to the topic or escalate this and ignore the feedback.

    I am not attacking you. I am trying to give you a perspective. So is Thrak. Your tone is uncalled for. Make of it what you will, good sir.
     
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  19. May Rears Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    430
    They are probably both after derailing the thread so much with arguments and posturing that it gets locked. At least Keen have not had a disaster like the weekend public beta of Defiance 2050 so there must still be some life left in the old girl :D
     
  20. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    1,994
    Where's my popcorn??
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  21. May Rears Apprentice Engineer

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    430
    It was ground down to make the Mr Coffee machine then Michael Jackson ate the remaining supply :)
     
  22. Malware Master Engineer

    Messages:
    9,861
    @Burstar I may be missing something more here, but if you're under the impression that I was trying to teach you the meaning of English words, you're way off. Not even once. I was under the impression that you were deliberately changing your argument, based on my understanding of the words you used. I was not telling you the meaning of the words. I was trying to convey to you my understanding of the words, and why I am so opposed to what I believed it was you were saying.

    In short, how I read it: Going into a transaction being certain that if anything happens it must be foul play, as opposed to going into a transaction expecting it to be on the up-and-up, but keeping one's eyes open for possible foul play... and accepting that even if something goes wrong it might still be morally grounded.

    My understanding of the word "fail", for example, is colored by the Norwegian word "feile" which - it would seem - is more rigid in its meaning and not a literal translation of the English word.

    In the Norwegian meaning, if you fail something, it's because you're not able, not because you choose to.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2018
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  23. Farindark Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    418
    Greetings

    I think on forums one should stick to generalities and broad ideas, specifically trying to avoid fine points in anything as much as possible. Even without the differences of countries/languages forums cannot convey inflections and emotion when written as experienced when talking face to face. This can often lead to misunderstandings and pages of "arguments". @Spaceman Spiff I stole your popcorn..I have it right here! :munch:
     
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  24. Malware Master Engineer

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    9,861
    @Farindark Of course one "should". But that's an utopia. People have good days, and they have bad days. Some times - like here - a certain perceived point of view pokes a wound and causes a reaction. I usually do not do these kinds of arguments. I regret it, but what's done is done. I just find it so sad that the world has become a place where people put a shield of hostility around themselves because they fear the world - and thereby creating the world they fear. Now it may seem that Burstar is not necessarily such a person, and this all is just - as you say - a big misunderstanding... but unfortunately there's plenty of people who truly are like that. And it feels like it has happened in these last couple of decades or so. It feels like it didn't use to be like that.

    All I can do is apologize to @Burstar and move on.
     
  25. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    463
    This all stemmed from a throw away line from a KSH employee which suggested that if someone commits to doing something and fails to do it, that those relying on that person would be "insane" for not being happy about that.

    In my neck of the woods, if you say you are going to do something, and don't, you are less than honest. At the risk of unintentionally sounding condescending, it is my understanding that 'Fail' just means 'did not succeed'. You can fail because it was your fault, or you can fail because you were thwarted by something/someone beyond your control. For example, I failed to see that you were not being condescending, and for that I apologize.

    Also, when I say 'one ought do something', there is always an implied "if you can". I admit I sometimes assume this is common knowledge and that is my mistake. So if that person failed for reasons beyond their control, then they are, of course, not dishonest.

    The problem is when you look at what is 'beyond ones control'. Too often a company fails because of a 'downturn in the market', or some other poor excuse, when in reality the company should have been prepared for whatever the eventuality is. "We ran out of money, but not because I was taking trips to the Alps every 3 months".
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2018
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  26. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,368
    If being an investor was simple, we'd all be doing it. I'm fairly certain Keen's major investors are not some college kids still living in their mom's house. They're definitely not prone to dropping a current investment because something else is shinier. They were probably well aware of how long this project will take long before they handed over a penny, Investment is more than just a modded version of buying a copy of the game on Steam.

    I recall the day when, after several years of closed Beta and literally thousands of dollars donated by fans that wanted to see the project happen, the outrage when it was announced that MechWarrior Online would be free to play. 80 pages on their forum of the most caustic, hateful vitriol probably ever assembled in one place.

    I can. It was part of my job the last 10 years before I retired. Just sayin.

    In my neck of the woods there's this big mountain called Denali (some called it Mt. McKinley). It's the tallest mountain on the North American continent (nearly 22,000 feet). It's not the toughest mountain in the world to climb, but you better know what you're doing. Point is every year lot's of people make the attempt. Not everyone makes it.

    Every last one to a person said they were going to climb Denali to the summit. You're saying the one's that didn't make it were liars.

    And that's what we call, in my neck of the woods, bullshit.

    Keen said they made a playspace a billion kilometers across. Today it's difficult to play that far from the origin. At this point I am having a lot of difficulty finding an actual lie. Especially in light of the fact that they are still actively writing code and no one at or associated with Keen has said the game is complete in any way, shape or fashion, which leaves open the possibility that Keen might still make good on that statement, which was never a promise, as the game itself was never a promise.

    It's like that guy that said he was going to climb Denali, got halfway up and found his intended path was not going to work. Is he a liar now because he can't use the path he planned to use? Is that you sitting in a comfortable chair by the fireplace back at the base camp telling everyone that will listen that Joe the Mountain Climber is a liar because he said he was going to climb the mountain, but he hasn't? Even though he hasn't finished? What if Joe finds another path? Is he still a liar? He hasn't reached the top like he said he would, but he's still trying.

    If it were up to you, Joe's pants would already be in the fireplace.

    I think this discussion goes to the very heart of the thought process that lead to this thread: that Keen is going to abandon the game and they should make it open source so that people could just take all the work done so far, throw in a few tweaks, and call the game their own and charge for it. These are statements and assumptions made by people that have never even tried to work on a project of this magnitude. This isn't passing the spelling pop quiz your teacher gave you on the last day of school. This isn't passing Finals so you can be a Junior instead of a Sophomore. This isn't getting a Degree. This is actual serious business using real money (not just the 20 bucks or so you paid for a copy of the game and nothing more).

    No one says you shouldn't be upset because you can't play the game half a billion kilometers away from the origin. Go ahead, blow your stack all you want. If you really believe Keen has done something illegal, tell someone that can do something about it (and, good luck with that). If you said you could get any rational thinking person to agree with you on this subject, you must be some kind of liar. Because you haven't.

    Your logic, not mine.
     
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  27. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    1,994
    Preach it, brother!
     
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  28. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

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    463
    Your rhetoric is such a straw man I know it's pointless, but I will say this anyways in the hopes that maybe you'll get it.

    If they said they would, got halfway and said "f it, this is too hard", or decided to take another path, then they lied. Not difficult to figure this out. It's not reinventing the wheel here. Lies can be understandable. We all lie after all.

    If they climbed halfway and passed out from oxygen deprivation and had to be carried back for health reasons, then no they haven't broken their word.

    If you can't see the truth in this, then you must be so proud of your participation trophies.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2018
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  29. Petr Beranek Developer Staff

    Messages:
    206
    Yeah, that's exactly how I would define "fail" too. If you fail because you have chosen to, then your goal is to fail and thus you are successful. :D Unless you are unable to "fail" and it is still success... you fail to fail? :D

    Aside from that... that's a lot of posts... that will take me a long time to chew through it. :D
    --- Automerge ---
    Now I wonder that if it is still fail, if someone sabotaged you and that causes you to "fail". Probably yes?
     
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  30. Malware Master Engineer

    Messages:
    9,861
    In the Norwegian meaning of the word, I think so. Sabotage could be considered an outside factor, yes? Something you cannot control.

    Apparently, though, the English meaning of the word is broader.
     
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