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SE - Abandoned/Finished

Discussion in 'General' started by Dragonspride, Apr 1, 2018.

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Should Keen Release SE as open source if they abandon it?

  1. I agree

    49 vote(s)
    53.8%
  2. I dissagree

    34 vote(s)
    37.4%
  3. I don't know

    8 vote(s)
    8.8%
Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Petr Beranek Developer Staff

    Messages:
    206
    Wow... I think I will have to split this into separate statements and take some time to think about it to determine with which statement I disagree the most. :D
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  2. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    460
    In typical English use, failure is the opposite of success. "Fail" has no 'fault' portion. The reason why something was unsuccessful is separate, and is usually implied by the context of the statement.

    The problem as I see it is that if someone fails, a justification for the failure is often necessary. Apparently this trend to justify is absorbed into the Norwegian version.
     
  3. Cetric Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    809
    No it isn't.
    It is about five years in development.
    If they publish it next month, it would be... a newborn baby, zero years old. How long it has been in the incubator does not count.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. Calaban Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    927
    I think its time to play the following meme card:


    Someone said something silly an illogical. Fine. We all get to roll our eyes and feel better by way of judgement upon reading it. But it is-and forever will be- unwise to feed the originator the notion that what he said or thought actually mattered in any sort of way.

    In the end benefit of hindsight, talks of Unicorn farts would still have been preferable.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    4,845
    Before we sink headlong into analogies, strawmen, ruby slippers and flying monkeys... Keen had several things that they WANTED to do. But in interest of all factors considered, they won't be able to bring them to fruition. They've always maintained that all features are subject to change. It's a little extreme to say that you were lied to or intentionally misled. You are disappointed. I won't argue the merits of your disappointment. You're entitled to feel that way. I have several disappointments about the game.

    But that's it. It can't be everything to everybody. My opinion is that Keen kept their side of the street clean. They have had a lot of issues. Some of the decisions have left me repeating "why" like Nancy Keragin with a swollen knee. But you were not lied to. They've gone about SE in a sophomoric manner. But they didn't lie.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. beelzerob Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    429
    I think you mean "womb" and not incubator, since premies can get put into incubators but their "born time" has still officially started.

    So ya, it's been in the womb for about 5 years and the labor pains have kicked in. Everyone wants Keen to have an emergency C-section, and then they'll complain when the baby comes out and is missing the left-arm feature because it was taken too early. So everyone just relax and let Marek take some deep breathes and push out this next major update.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2018
    • Agree Agree x 4
  7. zachusaman Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    74
    If it was a game like Bannerlord yes, but considering we've had access to this game for the last 5 years, then I consider it a game thats been "out" for 5 years.
     
  8. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    460
    For the record, I never said they did. I said IF someone didn't fulfill their commitment then people aren't insane for being unhappy about it.

    Apparently, this is breaking new ground or something.
     
  9. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    4,845
    I guess it's been page after page of semantics. But if that's the core of your argument, then it's valid. Funny how all of this comes down to one short statement that needs no further clarification. But the problem is what WAS the commitment and what was the expectation?
     
  10. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,593
    All this fighting is harshing my mellow. :(
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. Roxette Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,408
    So just unsubscribe from the thread, it's been a waste of time for at least the last 18 pages anyway :)
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  12. Malware Master Engineer

    Messages:
    9,663
    I would say the last 22, tbh... The entire thread is quite pointless. No amount of votes would ever make Keen release the game to public domain :D
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,192
    The English meaning of the word isn't significantly different from any other culture. The English use of the word (and particularly the U.S. use) is much broader indeed. Particularly amongst gamers, fail is more of an expletive.

    They didn't lie. They were mistaken. Why they stopped is immaterial if a good faith attempt was made.


    Well, you didn't say Keen lied, but you did say this:
    So what we have is a discussion about Keen's failure to make the billion kilometer world they created playable half a billion kilometers from the origin. An assertion was made that when Keen announced the increased size they apparently also promised that the entire area would be playable. The fact that the area currently is arguably not playable beyond 200,000 kilometers (I'm sure @Malware can provide the exact figures) means Keen... was dishonest. This discussion, in turn, arose because Keen's failure to make the fringes playable is but just one example of Keen's failure to keep promises that they made. The existence of other examples implies that Keen is knowingly not conducting it's business honestly.

    This thread was started after Keen announced that weekly updates would end, thus creating speculation that Keen was going to release the game as is or abandon it entirely. I saw this thread as an attempt to fan that flame, and joined the discussion in order to offer a different opinion. The discussion went from "what should we do if Keen abandons the game" to "Why would Keen abandon the game?" The response to that became "because Keen promised more than what they knew they could possibly achieve." I don't believe that is true, and that is what I argue against. I don't believe I created a strawman argument. If I have, feel free to burn him down and tell me what the real issue is here. If I agree with you (and I'm not saying that I won't) I"ll say so.
     
  14. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    460
    This is the straw man. I'm talking about commitments, you're talking about things said in trivial conversation. I'm talking about situations where a good faith attempt wasn't made, you're ignoring that. I'm talking about having the strength of character to do the difficult thing, you're talking about excuses.

    It's all already been said numerous times. So I'm done explaining it. If you don't get it it's not my problem.

    The consensus is right about this vibe sucking, so lets move on to something people care about like whether this next MP test on Friday will be the last one before the patch is released.
     
  15. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,192
    Oh, I get it, all right ;)
     
  16. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,593
    I could, but then I'd just be accused of being a quitter. Remember...winners never quit, and quitters never win!
     
  17. Roxette Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,408
    An internet forum is a strange game. The only winning move is... not to play.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  18. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,192
    It's not about winning or losing. It's about having the discussion. There's no thread anywhere that ended with everyone in agreement over who "won". The point is to learn from the conversation.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  19. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    460
    I read that in the Wargame synth voice :p
     
  20. Petr Beranek Developer Staff

    Messages:
    206

    Come on man. You can't say such things... It is rude to break the only support that keeps this thread from crumbling :D Let people have their fun :D
    --- Automerge ---
    The problems with size of space is just a bug. Still have no idea how many times I will have to repeat this. :D It just have low priority (what is more important in multiplayer update? Multiplayer improvement that affects all people playing multiplayer or space size that affects only small fraction of players?).
    --- Automerge ---
    From your posts I am getting that: someone says anything + it does not happen -> he is being dishonest (did I get it right? I got lost somewhere around strawmen.:D )

    What about case when someone would say for example, he would put something into game (as we still turn around games, it could be good example :D ), but he does not because of:
    A) technical problems (like engine does not support it)
    B) it does not suit the game (it would be there just for a sake of being there/looking cool)
    C) there are more important things and it will be added later
    D) the game went in bit different way and it became unimportant
    E) you found out it would bring more problems in the long run (like implementing it would cost too much resources and time, which would bankrupt you and you would have to release early or stop development to find another job to feed family, so you rather discard it.)

    In what cases is it lying, being dishonest and so on? (If someone comes up with other cases, add them in :D )
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  21. Cetric Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    809
    I don't care about the whole 'fail' and 'dishonesty' thing people dance in circles around, I am still busy with the issue if Space Engineers, once published, will be born out of a womb or incubator. As it is artificial life, I tend to the word 'incubator' alright. I can agree though on the fact Marek Rosa is the biological father.
    :D
    Don't forget treebeard is a clone, too. Each time getting respawned teaches you such things...

    [​IMG]
    I am sure sci-fi fans recognize that picture.
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
  22. Petr Beranek Developer Staff

    Messages:
    206
    How can anyone make so much mistakes in such simple word... I will never understand, but let me help you. It is spelled A N D R O I D. ;)
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  23. Malware Master Engineer

    Messages:
    9,663
    Meh, how boring. Means that there's no need even for pressurization or oxygen.
     
  24. Sinbad Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,788
    component cooling using a fluid to carry away heat (like air) is more efficient... doesnt explain consumption though :(
    i imagine treebeards breath to be about 120C and smells like the inside of a cheap clock radio.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  25. Petr Beranek Developer Staff

    Messages:
    206
    Well, it seems he is built and programmed in such way that he detects lack of oxygen and simulates dying and then shuts down. This is why he is able to sprint with no problem even though he is suffocating. Why he needs no food, water nor toilet. Does not need any furniture nor bed. And so on. :D
     
    • Funny Funny x 3
  26. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    460
    This is why I say Malware did the smart thing by keeping his mouth shut. There are things beyond ones control that may look like they are. Unfortunately, trustworthiness is decided by the observer so looks are important here. This is also why I do not think KSH has lied (yet).

    A) This is vague, but I would say that if you committed to doing something strongly enough to that you received monetary support we can assume you argued you would be able to overcome technicals. So, this falls under the "but it's hard" excuse.

    B) Did you say you would do it?

    C) Assuming you do not have an official deadline, yet can still mean 'eventually'.

    D) Does what you're doing meet and/or exceed the spirit of the original commitment?

    E) "Ought implies can". My concern here is 'why did you say you could, and was this new information predictable ahead of making the commitment'?

    Regardless, even IF you do have good reasons for breaking a commitment, those that you committed to are not 'insane' for being unhappy with you doing so.

    I think we're ignoring the real issue here, and that is the genius of SE allowing you to have a medbay that you can name 'Unicorn' that can fart out Rainbow clones. (side note: that also explains why my suit smells).

    [​IMG]
     
    • Like Like x 1
  27. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    4,845
    How about a nice game of chess?
     
  28. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,192
    As far as I am concerned, the problems with size of space is not a problem. I don't think most people realize how much space they have to work with. All I know is a lot of issues I had with sim speed, frame rates, etc. went away when they increased the size.

    Then they did other stuff to bring things down again, seems like, but I never intended to try and go to the edge, not even just to see if I could. Complete opposite to my approach to ship building :D
     
  29. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,593
    Hey, I want rock to look like...well...rock. After the visuals upgrade, all the rock looks like shiny metal rock. I think it should look like dirty, dusty rock. Then this game would rock. (Notice that I'm getting boulder with my statements? I'm really just graveling to get attention.)
     
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  30. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    460
    Boy do you know your audience :p
     
Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.