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SE - Abandoned/Finished

Discussion in 'General' started by Dragonspride, Apr 1, 2018.

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Should Keen Release SE as open source if they abandon it?

  1. I agree

    49 vote(s)
    53.8%
  2. I dissagree

    34 vote(s)
    37.4%
  3. I don't know

    8 vote(s)
    8.8%
Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. beelzerob Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    429
    I'm playing the latest Super Engineer Adventures and it has grind to learn...I highly recommend it as well. It's crazy how many hours I've put into it without drilling for ore once.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  2. aka13 Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    77
    Marec defense squad can say anything they want, but the game is now completely dead. I give up my hopes, which I had since the very beginning. It still remains a large lego playground for those " I build yet another one startrek ship replica" guys, while absolutely shitting on any and all survival which was present before.

    It was a fun ride guys, I enjoyed it while it lasted.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 4
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    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,368
    No you didn't.
     
    • Funny Funny x 3
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Informative Informative x 1
  4. Taemien Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    468
    As of writing this, Space Engineers is #90 of top played games on Steam. So what you've said is either a lie, or ignorance.

    http://store.steampowered.com/stats

    Good luck providing a source that contradicts mine. I recommend retracting your statement.


    On another note. Why is this poll even allowed? Aren't these one sided polls against the forum rules?
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  5. PLPM Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    850
    Company of heroes 2 has more players than SE?

    Counter Strike Source? The hell. That`s from 2004.

    Damn, even the divison which dwindled incredibly in player numbers due to its mechanics, STILL has more players.

    I mean I`m not impressed that L4D2 is still heavily played, but that`s a game from almost a decade and it has twice the players SE has right now.

    Anyone that has frequented the forums since the start should outright know how much the community has shrunk from its peaks, that`s not something to be proud of, inevitable, most definitely, but don`t wave the victory flag like it was one.

    I commend the developers for continuing with the project, its hard. But no, SE`s numbers are not something to be proud of, if anything but sales and some player hour counts.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2018
    • Agree Agree x 1
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  6. Taemien Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    468
    If you consider that a failure, then every game NOT on that list is trash. Which is obviously not true. I gave a reasonable standard of success. SE a early access game that has been in development for years is in the top 100 games on steam. But yet you want to move the goalpost further. So what its got to be? Top 20? Top 10? Top 5?

    Think about what you are asking. Steam, one of the widest gaming markets out there, heavily advertising new games. Complete with AAA titles as well as Indie ones. And you're asking for SE to be better than the best of the best of a 15k+ catalog. And its proven that its in the top 100, but that isn't good enough? Is your favorite games even this fantasy bracket you've concocted? Cause I have alot of games I play normally that aren't even in the top 100 and they are populated just fine.
     
    • Agree Agree x 6
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  7. Wicorel Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,262
    Can I have your stuff?
     
    • Funny Funny x 4
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. PLPM Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    850
    I only wanted to expose just how skewed something can be if we want it to be.

    Just as you say "Wow top 100" I can say "Wow CS:S a game from a decade and a half beats it significantly"

    But alright if you want to use that as a measure of sucess, I can`t stop you.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. Dax23333 Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    657
    It certainly feels like this forum has been getting far far quieter lately. I remember when the forum used to almost die on thursday evenings as people checked in to see if the update had hit. A lot less discussion too, perhaps because most things have been discussed.

    When space engineers does finally get a golden release, I can see sales picking up a fair but. But here's the thing: An awful lot of the people that look at this game and think it's the best thing since sliced bread like I did when I first got it a few years back, already got it. I cannot see how early access would not negitivly affect final version sales, of course that isn't the point of it but there we go. The more smooth income has got to be a big plus side of early access, the alternative being burning money for 4 years and then hoping you get it all back after.
     
  10. Erzherzoghans Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    12
    I wonder if they might have any quick patches if needed since they might not be able to find everything, especially if it might be something to a specific hardware or software issue.

    I am surprised it is not at over 9000 hours.
    I do not recall the amount that they sold but the amount sold did help them make the game to what it is today as well as helping to fund them for future development. They might have had to take loans and or maybe get some investment funding and those can be difficult for small teams to get and they would likely be under pressure to release something in a year or two. Some times that can work out for a first game if it is something small like Torchlight 1 (Runic Games - now closed down)
     
  11. Logi Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    170
    I'm quite interested to see what kind of scores Space Engineers will have when they release after marketing the game as: "Space Engineers is a sandbox game about engineering, construction, exploration and survival in space and on planets. Players build space ships, space stations, planetary outposts of various sizes and uses, pilot ships and travel through space to explore planets and gather resources to survive."

    It should be: "Space Engineers is a sandbox tech demo about construction in space and on planets."

    If they want the focus to be "engineering", they should at least have a few more basic things like rails, hinges and cables and complex builds to be more easier to build and actually useful in the "manual mode". The engineering part is a joke outside of creative showpieces.

    Maybe they should change the "exploration" to "exploration of workshop content" as that's what they are so proud of. "You can get a mod for that" is the goto excuse for everything while most peoples play sessions of SE consists of checking the frontpage workshop contents that has "100% vanilla" in them.

    And "survival" is just there to sell the game for mass markets, even though Marek never wanted this to be survial game and even after all these sales (thanks to the "survival"), Marek still rather sell this as a survival game than what it actually is.

    The vocal Keen defence squad likes to go on about "making your own goals in the game" and other elitist stuff which would be fine if Space Engineers was marketed as that niche game Marek wants it to be. The problem is that Marek choose to market it to appeal for much larger audience and if it would have been marketed as that niche game Marek visioned, it would have never sold even close to as much as it has.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
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    • Informative Informative x 1
  12. Captaindan Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    172
    https://steamdb.info/app/244850/history/ Game is still under development. Just check this link out from time to time... 9 days ago they put something in called "ladders" could be a hidden goddie for later, because many people wanted ladders.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  13. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,368
    Yes. We can all find facts on the internet to support our assertions regardless of how relative they are. This is why people should ignore "facts" in forums and do their own research. Forums generally add dubious facts and emotionally charged rhetoric together. That is almost the definition of a forum. In this case, if your decision about whether or not you like Space Engineers is based on how many other people like Space Engineers there are plenty of people here that would like to convince you that nobody likes it. It's sad but true that many people will not even try a game if their friends state they don't like it. How many times here and in some person's Twitch chat have you seen someone ask the question, "Is this game worth buying?" That's a question from a person that cannot make a decision and prefers to be led. You tell that person to make up their own mind and they get pissed. I don't like it when someone tries to tell me what I should think. I like it less when they use conjecture, information from dubious sources, outright lies, volume (yelling and/or all caps), and name-calling to make their point.

    I think Marek and Keen Software House can hold their heads up high because enough people like their game. Their accountants might say more than enough. Space Engineers was not going to be a game with mass appeal. Most gamers are probably turned off because the word "engineers" is in the name. Engineers use math. THAT can't be fun. If they called the game "Blowing Up Stuff in Space" they would have sold four times as many copies and it wouldn't matter if no one played it. Therefore, basing the success of the game on it's mass appeal is, at best, misleading. If you base your decision to own and play SE on where it stands amongst all the other games out there because you don't want to be on the "losing side" then I guess you are not supposed to like SE. It will never be the most popular game ever. Try Candy Crush.
    Actually, the noise has just gone back to the pre-weekly-update level. There is more talk in other forums about the game and less talk about what they didn't fix in the update. The other forums seem to be less tolerant of people complaining because the game doesn't have liquid water.
    "Space Engineers is a sandbox game about engineering, construction, exploration and survival in space and on planets. Players build space ships, space stations, planetary outposts of various sizes and uses, pilot ships and travel through space to explore planets and gather resources to survive."

    That, my friend, is niche marketing. If you don't see what you like in those two sentences you should look for another game. I doubt anyone could make it any more plain. I see no emphasis on survival here. I see more of an acknowledgement that survival is a part of the game, not the whole game. PLAYERS market SE as a survival game to their friends so that their friends will buy the game and play it as a survival game with them.

    I will say and have always said that putting planets in the game was a bad idea, at least at the time. In my opinion, one of the "surprises" Keen has in store for us should have been planets. This is why "survival" means "recovering from a crashed landing on a planet" and not "managing to remain alive against all odds." There was some concern at the time that another new game that bore an eerie, uncanny resemblance to SE was going to have planets and someone panicked. Thing is you can go back and look at the pre-planet posts in the forums about what people said they would do if SE ever got planets and you will find that almost none of it has come to pass, and it's not because they can't. It all sounded good until they had the opportunity, and now that they can, they don't. I don't know why. In any event, Keen supplied the planets, but players are responsible for anyone believing SE is a survival game.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  14. Dragonspride Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    460

    "Vocal keen defense squad" I think my "Keen Fanboy brigade" is better :p
     
  15. Malware Master Engineer

    Messages:
    9,861
    Meh. Can't really argue against "vocal Keen defense squad" as that's just a simple statement of fact, while anyone actually using the word "fanboy" in a non-sarcastic way is making more fun of themselves than the people they're "accusing"...

    Actual "fanboys" as will just keep defending without regard to facts, thus calling them fanboy has no impact. They're also quite obvious because they can't really defend their standpoint, if they could they wouldn't be "fanboys".

    The non-"fanboys" who are actually using facts and/or experience as their base already know this, and if they're being accused of being fanboys they're just getting evidence that the other part simply don't know what they're talking about, have run out of arguments, and/or simply won't accept that others may have another opinion. This is good information that continuing the argument is simply pointless.

    Ergo, using such terms is just pretty much guaranteeing that one won't be taken seriously - while posts like Logi's, who are not using such terms, might be. I agree with most of his statements here. He did make the mistake of using the word "elitist", though, which is another word that has become stigmatized against the speaker more than the opponent... Calling someone "elitist" indicates some kind of superior "morality" (my English may be failing me here), making the word reflect worse on the speaker themselves... because then they themselves might be viewed as "elitist".

    It's best to simply keep to facts, without accusations or name-calling. That way you're far more likely to be taken seriously.

    Just my opinion on the matter :D
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  16. PLPM Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    850
    Hmmm

    "Elitist" implies that someone is cutting off access to a certain object/activity from anyone that does not comply with the "standars" put in place by the group. Those standars could be positive, arbitrary, wicked, etc. It doesn`t really speak of a superior "morality"

    It does speak of rejection and margination, which could indeed mean an inferiority complex, but that`s up to the person, not the word itself.
     
  17. Malware Master Engineer

    Messages:
    9,861
    Hm. Maybe. Like I said, my English might be failing me here. I stand by the intent of my post though, and the stigmatizing effect using such words have - whatever their meaning.
     
  18. Dragonspride Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    460
    Maybe this will be more simple.


    If (SpaceEngineers_Abandoned = True) do
    Then (Keen {SpaceEngineers_openSource_Release} = True)
    Else (Keen {SpaceEngineers_openSource_Release} = False);
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2018
  19. Malware Master Engineer

    Messages:
    9,861
    But you see, that's the thing. The question isn't that black-and-white. The concept of whether or not the game is "abandoned" will be subjective, if and when the time comes. In fact I guarantee you that no matter what Keen does, there will be lots of people who will consider the game abandoned because it didn't go the direction they wanted. Keen can't do everything, they have limited resources. So in order for this to even become conceivable Keen themselves must acknowledge the fact that the game is abandoned, and they will signal this quite clearly by making the game open source. Do you really think that will ever happen, ever? I don't.

    Besides, making the game open-source won't work unless someone steps up and takes control. Anarchy will not work. One could not just merge everything willy-nilly, that would not make for a good game. Given that this would be non-paid work and lots of work even just to review and merge PRs I think that wouldn't work out. And even if it did we'd be back with someone staking out a direction and others being angry because they're not getting their work merged, or the game still not going their direction... and we'll have new people talking about the game being abandoned.
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
  20. Amunre81 Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    5
    In what kind of world are some people living today?
    If something is completed it's done, finished, ready to go. Imagine a company would build you a house and calls you and says "hey your house is completed", what do you expect?! RIGHT! A house that is done, finito, you can move in. No more workers in THE HOUSE.
    If your auto-repairshop calls you and says your car is completed, do you expect your car to be done, or that two doors are missing and they still have to install a cylinder into the engine??
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  21. Malware Master Engineer

    Messages:
    9,861
    Well only certain people in the community is claiming the game is abandoned (or finished), Keen themselves are still working like crazy on it, so... we're not in any of those situations, not yet ;)

    Also, the analogue towards houses and cars don't really work. Those have some rather specific demands that must be met in. Unfortunately you and I don't get to define what "finished" is, what features are to be included in a game. As much as I resent it, they've been calling it a "sandbox" from day one. That term is rather specific as it defines games which does not have goals, where the players - like in a real sandbox - have to define the goals themselves. Like, what was it called, Gary's mod or whatever. That's another sandbox game. I guess I need to repeat here that I myself do not consider that good game material. We may resent it but it's been there in the open all the time, never hidden, often repeated. It's on us for not understanding what that meant. For me, well... it's a bit worse since I knew very well what that term meant, I just... chose to ignore it because I didn't want to believe it. The "survival" bit, well... I will reserve my judgement of that until the actual gold release. We're not there yet.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2018
    • Like Like x 2
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    • Disagree Disagree x 1
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  22. Dax23333 Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    657
    You could only say it was finished/not finished by comparing it to a list of features that was planned to be added. Get all of them done? Great, out the door with one great game. Diddn't get them all working well enough? Never mind, we can scratch those ideas. That would be thier internal plan, which they're not gonna give us because if they did and they missed something off it the forums would be filled with whining about features that were 'promised' but not added.

    One of the wonderful (and worst) things about making games as apposed to making something like a house or a spanner - you can move the goalposts quite a long way from where they origonally were.
     
  23. Cetric Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    814
    Oh yes, sadly that's true. As if there wasn't enough "blowing-up-stuff" games for two or three decades. And still get published all the time, that's a sure ticket. Kids never get enough of "blowing up stuff".
    Oh, I am afraid that is an "elitist" point of view, again...
    How grateful I am for the niche, the engineer focus. Does not mean I do not equip my builds with weapons and occasionally "blow up stuff". However, that is happening marginally, for a test, or when pirates are bothering me. This content of "blowing-up-stuff" may sell well, but it is as unimaginative as can be. Like a movie you wonder if you had seen it before, because the plot is so damn copy+paste-like...
    As it is said in English, KEEN 'stands out of the crowd' with SE, for good reason.
     
  24. Lord Grey Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    421
    I still like SE, even the bugs and the non-functional stuff sometimes get to my nerves. But I didn't found an alternative that is better than SE, even in its unfinished state. Empyrion? Doesn't have the long therm fun of SE for me. It has planets and it has water, but seriously? The planets have a transition, you can't fly to the poles, the water is nowere dynamic (It works, but won't meet Keens quality standard). Nope. Doesn't work for me.
    Oh yea, can sing a song about that. I also like to play Natural Selection 2, a first person shooter on the first view, but a tactic game really. There are so many children playing it and loosing because they just want to go shooting the aliens...
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  25. Taemien Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    468
    What I think is amazing (and I can't think of a better term for it), is you have players with over 2000 (some even far more) hours sunk into this game and they are flipping their lids about how its Miner Wars all over again, how the game will be abandoned, and how it didn't live up to their expectations.

    They have more hours sunk into SE than I did my Intellivision, NES, SNES, and N64 combined. And possibly eating into PC gaming time too if it weren't for a few MMORPGs. I just can't understand that sort of a commitment to a game over that amount of time. Even when I play MMOs, a good chunk of that time is afk, chatting, or waiting for something. But it isn't that way in SE, you're always doing something.

    I'm sorry to say, but the opinion of someone with an excessive amount of time in a game is going to have to be taken with a grain of salt. Something attached to them enough to get the several hundred or several thousand hours out of them. And those are the games I typically look for. Games that go for $20-30 and people can play them for a thousand hours before complaining. Not like some AAA $60-80 game you get 10 hours and done.

    In this case most of us are going to have to attribute the negativity to burnout. Or in some cases, simple sensationalism. Some of these players have been dooming and glooming on here for over two years.
     
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  26. Cetric Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    814
    Exactly.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  27. Amunre81 Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    5
    I know Malware I don't think nor did I say that I think that keen is done with the game yet. There is still a lot to be done especially in the performance departmend.
    What I said was, that I don't understand people who claim, that completed projects aren't abandoned.
    If a company is done with something they abandon it from a development perspectiv. There might be the occational patch but there is no more MAJOR development done.
    And I know that comparisons are never onehundered percent accurat.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  28. PLPM Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    850
    That`s a page back.

    "I can spend a thousand hours banging my head at the wall, that doesn`t mean I liked it.

    True, you can`t deny that you spent so much time with something, but sometimes, people get tunnel vision and only think of the "finish line" without actually enjoying the current status quo, only happy and continuing through because of the mirage they`re chasing.

    That`s how many toxic relationships can be described. If someone just had come out from one and you said that they`re stuck up because they came from a two year relationship and they`re complaining about it not being what they expected after all this time and be somewhat regretful of it, well he doesn`t get the nature of it.

    It`s human nature, its not ideal but it`s one of the ways humans go through life, letting hope be the driving point sometimes."

    There are some people that are trolls, but others are just rightfully disappointed and annoyed at Keen from their own perspective, I myself am one.

    I agree that the "buck/hour" ratio is terrible on most AAA titles, especially compared to SE, but you can`t use that as a measurement to a game`s quality.
     
  29. Taemien Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    468
    I really do not think that's the case. If this was about 3-4 years ago, you might have a point. But we're talking over 5 years. I've never played a game that long before (come close with EQ and WoW). And even with games that I enjoy heavily like this one, PS2, and many other MMOs, I do tend to take breaks of a few weeks to months inbetween. I don't think these people do. Hence the burn out.

    In nearly 4 years I've got 562 hours played. That's a fraction of even people who bought the game 2-3 years ago. I'd wager that if they took breaks for weeks at a time like I have and play during major updates only. Their opinion would be different. Everything has to be done in moderation. Even SE.
     
    • Like Like x 1
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  30. PLPM Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    850
    Bro, I`ve taken months off, usually when something broke, like projectors or when simply I grew happy with my designs and called it a day. Still I do have a rather negative view towards the state of SE right now, yet not disgusted at its core, I`m not tired of it on itself.

    I have no doubt that some people burned out too, but I don`t think such a wide stroke can be used to paint everyone who was or is dissatisfied with SE at this moment.

    Some people expected too much, something akin to a MMO with 64 players in scale.
    Some others played until it no longer made them feel anything, it got stale.
    And some people just disagree with how SE`s gameplay is balanced.

    It would actually be interesting to have a poll for that.
     
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