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SE - Abandoned/Finished

Discussion in 'General' started by Dragonspride, Apr 1, 2018.

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Should Keen Release SE as open source if they abandon it?

  1. I agree

    49 vote(s)
    53.8%
  2. I dissagree

    34 vote(s)
    37.4%
  3. I don't know

    8 vote(s)
    8.8%
Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Malware Master Engineer

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    @Cetric Or I'm just simply tired of people reading more into a situation than there really is... which is the point if this entire exercise, even the reason why certain people are making angry youtube videos... and also why certain people are reading more into a comment about conspiracy theorists than there really is :D Thank you for helping me prove my point :)

    Occham's razor: Essentially... the simplest explanation is usually the correct one.

    Look, I'm sorry, I really didn't mean anything personal here; to any of you. I've simply lived long enough to have learned that assumption and speculation rarely leads anywhere good. Which is why I've taken Occham's razor to heart, because of it's very view on assumption, it's premise is that the explanation that requires the least amount of assumption is the most likely to be correct.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2018
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  2. Cetric Junior Engineer

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    Sure. That is why 'cui bono?' is such a rubbish and never tracks to the profiting offender. Criminalists and law enforcement all over the world know this. Much over-estimated. Old school. A myth. ;) Look anywhere else, under a stone, up in the sky. But not into the greedy face of economy which is sometimes handled like warfare.
    --
    We have to get rid of the idea that youtubers are nice guys like you and me, gamers in the heart, honest to the bones and never ever following other particular interests than their own sense of quality, as if they would be incorruptible. Where's a market, there's economic warfare involving manipulation. Or, to put it mildly; "competition". Wish it had less drama, though.
     
  3. Malware Master Engineer

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    @Cetric If you think I was trying to defend the youtuber in any way you're very wrong. Regardless of the reasons they're doing it it's still the wrong thing to do.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  4. Logi Apprentice Engineer

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    The people complaining about people who complain that there's nothing to do in Space Engineers should really be celebrating about the existence of Empyrion. There would be waaaaay more people complaining about lack of survival content, progression, goals, etc. without Empyrion.

    Empyrion had a harsh start thanks to being branded as a cheap SE clone (which it pretty much was at the start) but today it has surpassed SE in many areas and I would say it's far better sandbox construction game than SE and definitely leagues ahead in survival and exploration.

    I'm actually happy that there are youtubers who are very critical about Space Engineers and showcasing alternatives. For most new people trying to choose between the two games, Empyrion would be far more enjoyable sandbox.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
  5. Malware Master Engineer

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    @Logi Being critical is one thing. Spreading false information is something else.

    And yes, absolutely, if people want a game that focuses on survival, goals etc, then they should indeed go for Empyrion because SE was never going to be the game they want. The survival aspect never was the main focus on SE nor will it ever be. I'm still expecting some minor improvement, but this was ever a building sandbox.


    It's not really what I wanted either, for that matter. Not yet, at least.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2018
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  6. Cetric Junior Engineer

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    809
    @Logi You had a look into Empyrions workshop? No blocks, no parts, no mods. Only ships. - And you call that an alternative on the same level? :D
    I have the product. You want to know how much time I spent in Empyrion? 74 ... minutes. Really. Not hours; minutes. Says it all. It's no equivalent sandbox game.
    Apparently I don't feel urged to continue much there. Sorry.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  7. Thrak Junior Engineer

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    536
    The government made you say that, right?
     
    • Funny Funny x 3
  8. RkyMtnDude Apprentice Engineer

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    Wrap it up. Make it tight, make some hype, release it, and let the community do what it will. I don't know where that will take it. Seems SE, as version 1, will always be a small bucket of blocks in a huge sandbox with little engagement. Minus clang and larger server pops, it will end up being too easy to build and will little dynamic play: A semi well-rounded ship builder with a universe that is overkill. Just the little engine that just couldn't quite fight the hype... At least as SE1 goes. Sorta like a 2wd, 4cyl jeep, with alot of bolts loose and a really small gas tank but you were somehow convinced it would fly and also combat the Borg with an endless world of terrain you may never be able to reach or conquer. It really looks like it can go, and it will try, but yeah, probably just going to leave you stranded. And if you encountered a Borg presence, AKA, a large ship or decent fleet, well, that just means server lag or a crash is imminent. There have actually been times I have logged out in hopes that the Modded NPC's that were killing the sim speed would despawn as they, actually, ruined game play with lag, or just avoiding vanilla npc's as it was less risky to just mine since the reward for material gain was little compared typically to the loss potential. Taking a ship in a suit, while fun, is just about as fun as spawn camping. Sure, it can be intense, but you know in your heart and mind that this is just sorta really unrealistic and improper game play. Why risk a cruiser when you can just endless spawn with a grinder?

    Not going to lie, I have sat much in that little jeep, wishing and hoping, that it would someday fire up like a champ and take me on great adventures. I cannot say I have not sat by a great view while effecting repairs (after a visit by clang) or had some great game play, but it never really lived up to ANY of the fleet war hype, ets... It almost ALWAY ended up being my little mind that created my own scenarios.. IE: Today I will start on a planet and make a rocket to space. Mission accomplished.. now what?

    So it seems. Keen encouraged and let the hype run too long, and never said what they have now said, that this is about it folks. You can support them all they want, but they are suffering the consequences now of their hype, bad and inconsistent bug reporting methods, and ignoring simple requests like Female characters rather than saying early on that they would eventually add female suit or make a character generator. Keens answer was never clear. I would have accepted NO... but it seems all we heard was typically crickets... JUst a simple example of a missed opportunity.
    They clearly should have reigned in expectations early on as we requested. Speak to us. As a result, a portion of the player base was allowed, and maybe even encouraged to believe and instill hype, thereby, in a sense, letting fantasy flesh the game. The flesh is dying.
    And that is ok. I mean, that's what a sandbox is about.. Imagination. But we were allowed to believe that AI, NPC's, real encounters, survival, would all be vital elements to game play. As it sits, now it seems most servers turn off meteors and NPC animals/creatures, and have to implement severe restrictions on builds, etc, just to keep sim speed ok. As it seems, most, if not all of my capital ships will never be accepted on a server due to size or are just not practical.... so once again, the idea of a small bucket of blocks in a huge sandbox.
    Don't get me wrong. I still like the game... I still play checkers... But I was sold chess and that is what I was hoping for. As it appears to me, it will end up as a limited sandbox game, not quite complete, or fleshed out, that has elements of survival that were never really fully implemented, that can be a coop or limited community server game.
    I will probably fire it up on occasion, more out of nostalgia than anything, at least until final release. See what happens then but yeah... going to keep on shopping for the real deal.. Maybe Keen will present it...
    hate to say it, but this is sorta like getting into a relationship with a hottie and realizing they don't like to touch. Ya want it.. but you know you are going to be left wanting more.

    Yep, Wrap it up. Make it tight, make some hype, release it, and let the community do what it will. As to ER games, I have to admit, I shy away from them hard unless it is highly demonstrated that they have those elements Keen has been lacking... A solid, visible road map, great bug reporting systems, and a clear record of being able to take a vision from fruition to completion with good communication, and still maintain that vision.

    My opinion.. Not wrong. It's Mine. You have yours. You're not wrong either. Can Keen manage the new, but unfleshed vision... more Engineering related games and a universe to play them in. To me, that is like asking Elon how many colonies he is putting on Mars. He needs to get near it first.
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
  9. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    3,216
    Sorry. Yeah, Keen made a big deal now and then about a new block or feature, and they doubled down on planets, but the majority of the hype came from the fans. Modders do stuff that demonstrates possibilities and then fans want it vanilla and Keen won't confirm or deny because they just want to finish the game.

    Keen's decisions regarding the future of the version of SE we have now have not been misleading or out of line. How they chose to handle their product is their decision. A lot of people are upset SE isn't a survival game. People were upset Miner Wars wasn't an MMO. Keen never called MW an MMO and never said SE is a survival game. What they need to do now is add something that will entice people that don't already own the game to buy it. If they fail at that it does not mean they have failed as a video game company. Their product is still unique and full of possibilities. What they have learned they will apply to their next product. Given SE's performance versus MW, I suspect their next product will be very interesting. People that intend to avoid Keen's next product because they have heartburn that SE didn't become a survival game (or whatever game they thought it was supposed to be other than a sandbox) are probably used to missing out on things.

    When I first saw someone playing SE on Twitch I didn't see a survival game or a first-person shooter or really any kind of game at all. All I saw was people building ships in space. That was all I needed to make the decision to buy (well, that, and a six dollar sale price). Nothing I could find suggested it was anything other than a sandbox game, nor was there any official suggestion that Keen was working towards a survival game or FPS heavy on RP. They couldn't come up with a campaign, but the game was selling without one sooo... I wasn't looking for a survival game or shooter so there's no surprise I'm not disappointed. The game lets me design, build and run spacecraft (among other things), and I have been more or less happily engaged in that activity for over seven thousand hours. I'd buy it today at the current price, but I honestly don't think I'd pay much more unless my personal list of demands are met ;).

    Some people have realized that their personal demands are not going to be met, and they're upset. Some of those people have the ear of a lot of like-minded individuals and they would love to have everyone be just as upset as they are, and they possess the means to make it happen. All I can say is that if you ask these people why you shouldn't own or even play SE, what you get is mostly emotion. This is a consequence of expecting more than what was offered.

    SE might be a hard game to like, but it's just as hard to hate.

    What I find really hilarious is that some people still think Emporon* is a "better" game than SE or that people that like SE would love it. They seem to be under the impression that people that play SE are desperate for yet another generic survival game, and that those people don't see any difference between a game that breaks new ground and a game that just wants to capitalize on another game's misfortunes. Honestly, I don't think there's anyone that likes SE even a little bit that will find anything compelling about Emproyin.







    *Yeah, I spelled it wrong. Can't bring myself to spell it right. Sorry.
     
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  10. May Rears Apprentice Engineer

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    414
    There are no blocks, parts or mods simply because modding functionality is not in the game YET. It is one of the future features. Do not forget Empyrion is still in its alpha phase and not feature complete unlike SE.
     
  11. Cetric Junior Engineer

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    809
    The freedom to design blocks, parts with new functions and (I did not mention it yet as crucial difference: but we have program blocks and can run programs in SE, can or will they in Empurion*?) program blocks was given from the start in SE, so if that would be Emvampyrion*'s goal I think it would have to be featured from the beginning as well. Hard to imagine they integrate that later on. Did they announce such thing at all?

    *Stardrivers habits are contagious. :)
     
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  12. Sarekh Senior Engineer

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    If memory serves correctly, the PB was introduced some time after the initial release...
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. Cetric Junior Engineer

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    Alright. I came later. "Some time after the initial release" sounds still early enough. We have already "sometime after the initial release" moment in the Empoopyon universe...
     
  14. Malware Master Engineer

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    9,664
    Yeah the PB was not there when I got into the game, which was right after the removal of ladders
     
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  15. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

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    460
    I am not unhappy that Marek is finalizing SE. There are enough basics to this $25 game that modders could add whatever niche desire people wanted. I am going to call BS on Stardrivers claims:

    This is the games description currently on the Steam page and is the description that has been used since I purchased the game a year ago:

    "Space Engineers is a sandbox game about engineering, construction, exploration and survival in space and on planets."

    Anyone upset that SE's survival and exploration content are placeholders has a case imo.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  16. Roxette Senior Engineer

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    1,413
    I hate to be that guy but I had to check, having never seen the ladders but remember the addition of the PB ...

    Ladders removed : 24 Feb 2014 :
    https://forums.keenswh.com/threads/...r-chat-heavy-armor-ammo-models-items.6745848/

    Programmable block added : 1 Jan 2015 :
    https://forums.keenswh.com/threads/update-01-063-–-programmable-block.7224394/

    :p
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  17. Sarekh Senior Engineer

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    I think that you two are saying the same thing ^^
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  18. Malware Master Engineer

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    @Roxette You hate to be the guy that agrees with me? Isn't that a little strange? :p
     
    • Funny Funny x 4
  19. Morloc Apprentice Engineer

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    264
    Steam description of SE:

    'Space Engineers is a sandbox game about engineering, construction, exploration and survival in space and on planets.'

    Perhaps Keen doesn't directly control Steam's marketing of their game, but they'd need to concede that this will be the impression left on 99% of people have who are looking to purchase the game. That's a huge disconnect which they should feel responsible to address or correct.

    {EDIT: Sorry, had read Burstar's post after throwing this one out}

    -Morloc
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  20. Logi Apprentice Engineer

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    170
    To some extend I would say Keen is spreading false information with their way of marketing Space Engineers. Marek wants the game to be extreamly niche, like the physics contest, while he wants it to look like action packed AAA survival game...because that sells better than physics sandbox.

    I would say Empyrion doesn't even need mods because it already has everything that average player would need for their sandbox. Where SE may have a huge sandbox it's selection of stock toys are extreamly limited, though in much more high quality and with more coherant art style than what Empyrion has. I'm comparing vanilla experience here, the experience that the new player sees and uses to judge the game. What do you think is more important for average player: A) Engineering complex physics based contraptions mith minimal decorative options and survival content in huge empty sandbox with only your own goals in mind or B) Compact sandbox full of goals, different enemies, progression, locations to explore and building system that lets you build simple stuff with huge ammount of decorative freedom?

    I call it better vanilla alternative for people who might play few hours per week...an average player. And this is the elitist attitude I spoke of earlier, people who spend thousands and thousands of hours in one game unable to take of their tinted glasses for a moment and take a look how others see the situation. I understand you are very invested in Space Engineers and it's close to perfection of your playstyle, but you are far from new or average player.
     
  21. Malware Master Engineer

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    @Logi Oh, so in your mind one wrong makes another right. Gotcha.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  22. Logi Apprentice Engineer

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    Of course it doesn't make it right, I just don't care if someone is spreading false information about a game that is being marketed with false information in the first place.
     
  23. Malware Master Engineer

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    @Logi One liar does not make another liar a saint. The youtuber is still at fault if they're spreading lies. Also whether there's any marketing of false information is still highly contested information since the game isn't finished yet and clearly you're highly biased. You have already decided whether it's true or not. Who knows, when it is actually released I might join you, when the facts really are made clear. Or more likely I'll simply uninstall the game and move on. But we're not there quite yet. And yes, I'm also biased and aware of it. Which is why I simply stick to facts. Note that I have not made any claim that there isn't false marketing happening. Because I don't know yet and I stick to what I know. But there's nothing wrong with my sense of morale.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  24. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

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    That description is actually on the KSH SE about page as well, so it is exactly how KSH wants it described.
     
  25. Forcedminer Senior Engineer

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    ahhh the forums. :)
    I love coming here. we all fight among ourselves forging alliances and opinions create polls and nothing much comes of it other than salt and possibly a locked thread. :)
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  26. Calaban Junior Engineer

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    dont forget the "unwatch thread" option
     
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  27. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    It's not feature complete yet because there's still plenty of ideas to rip off from SE.


    Well, you bought the game right after they added "and on planets", but the description simply states what's possible in the game. It's not an either/or thing. When you play SE in "manual mode" you are by default in a "survival" situation because any time you screw up in space it's not likely that you will survive. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in an actual AAA "survival game" you are put in a situation where some malignant force has you surrounded and in order to "survive" you need to fight your way through and either escape or shut stuff down. I am not aware of any documentation written by Marek or Keen that even hints SE is or would become that sort of game. Before the game went multiplayer there was little talk of survival. Adding multiplayer is what made "survival" a thing because the worst threat in the game is another human being. "Survival" now means fending off people that want to shoot up all your stuff on the server. Alternatively you could go on a server that has more aggressive and determined NPCs and try to "survive" there. Frankly, I believe they waited until now to work on "survival" because they still may not know what that actually means for a game like SE.

    Yes, they said "survival" was part of the game. They never said it was the whole game.

    So 99% of people that saw "survival" in the description simply ignored "engineering, construction, exploration" and just see a "survival" game. If so, they need help. Who buys a game based on a description anyway?

    What marketing?

    Yes, an experience heavily influenced by what Empion's developer's believed SE was going to be, and a narrow-minded view at that.

    You forgot the part about the game not being finished yet. Today you get placeholder stuff and "survival" basics. A wise person would not assume that the SE of today is going to be the SE that gets launched.

    Well, I said it before and I'll say it again. Space Engineers is not for the average player. Space Engineers requires effort. The average player wants simple mechanics and obvious solutions to simple problems so that they can just mouse click their way to "victory". If you picked up Space Engineers for that kind of experience you made a mistake. Most games are targeted at 18-34 year old gamers. Space Engineers has a significant portion of its player base that is well over 34. I, myself, am 64. I have become friends with a lot of people over 50 because of SE. We tend to treat SE more like model railroading, where you can just lay down a circle of track, put an engine and a couple cars on it, and send it round and round, or you can build a layout the size of Pittsburgh that's so realistic you want to live there. SE is easier because it fits in one room. I'm not sure if it's cheaper, since I keep having to spend money on the machine to run it:p.

    SE has no levels, progression, tiers, or anything else that limits a new player. Someone just picking up the game can do whatever I have done in 7000 hours without having to jump through any hoops. Nothing is stopping you, but as of yet the game does not help you out much. Right now the "hard part" is finding all there is that's in the game and figuring out how it works. This is like homework for most players that just want to have "fun". See, you can do that with SE; make an experience that is just "fun", but it doesn't end there. You can go well beyond that if you so choose, and you can use your own, personal definition of "fun" when you do it. That's what I do, and that's why I'm not upset Keen didn't make it the "Ultimate Space Survival Game" because if they had tried, the best they could attain would be "Just Another Space Survival Game"

    You know. Like Emprilla.
     
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  28. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

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    460
    Straw man aside, it's nice to see someone actually admit they're wrong for a change.

    Really when I think "improve survival/exploration" I'm thinking "I'm bored with SE as there is no real challenge or point to it". I understand all the blocks and all their possible uses. I've made my cool things, made my practical things, been to all the planets, and frankly the motivation to continue putting the same blocks into different patterns just isn't there or rather is punished by Klang and/or how limited the performance is etc. In its current state, the only thing that keeps me interested in SE is seeing what other people come up with. Almost all of it unusable in a fun mp way.

    Something is needed to challenge and motivate so the player is inspired to solve new problems preferably under conditions that allow/promote sharing these solutions with <gasp> other players. It's not that the game is too hard, it's too easy.
     
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  29. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    3,216
    And what, pray tell, will "challenge and motivate" any more than what's already there, other than what is about to go in that we don't know about yet?

    You don't see any challenge because you don't see any point. If Keen doesn't come up with some kind of "point" that you will accept as a challenge, you are not motivated to play. You watch other people play and label everything they do "useless". I will concede, therefore, that Keen cannot count on you to be an avid SE player. It's just not the game you want. You were thinking maybe for a while that SE would become one of your favorite survival games but, alas, the game remains, for the most part, a sandbox with no challenging point.

    I suppose this game is more like model railroading than I thought. I mean, once you have laid some track, set down some cars and coupled them to an engine, then made it run down the track and back, you've "done everything". Where's the "challenge"? What's the "point"? Try pulling more cars? Use more than one engine? Lay more track?

    You get out of Space Engineers exactly what you put into it. You don't put anything into it, you get a mediocre experience. That's how sandboxes of all types work. In its present form, motivation and challenge has to come from the player. In my particular case that's all I need. If the player cannot or will not challenge and motivate themselves, they can allow other players an opportunity to motivate and challenge. When I say "other players" I'm also talking about Modders and Scripters. If you want to insist that Keen must be the sole source of content, and it's their responsibility to challenge and motivate you, go ahead and look for that other game. SE is not now and will never be what you want. It's probably not what your friends are looking for, either. The game is not for everyone. Keen has now learned what happens when you stray from your original goal just to try to win over a group that in reality has no respect for what you are trying to achieve and just wants you to make your game just like every other game they have ever played. Marek pretty much said he want's SE to be the game he wanted and that pissed off a whole lot of people that want all their games to be the same.

    I bought SE because it was different. I'm happy that Marek wants his game to stand out and not be grouped with other games that really only differ in presentation but not substance. We have all come to expect that any new game will actually be some sort of re-skinned old game using more recent technology. It's been happening so long that we don't really understand what "new" is any more. We actually complain because SE is not like other games, or that it doesn't do things the way other games do it, including the development itself. I don't think Marek is out to create a game so compelling that no one will play anything else. I do know that he wants SE and ME to be games of superior quality.

    If you want a game that will challenge and motivate you, try Empennage.
     
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  30. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

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    If you weren't too busy looking down your nose, through those thick glasses, at your train doing circles, and actually read my posts you would see that I've already said I'd be happy if Marek finalized the game. There is enough in there for the mod community to fill in what's missing.

    Consider that you might eventually get tired of watching the train go back and forth and wish there were actual demands for goods to be brought in to the destinations, or train robbers that attack it en route, or realistic (not bugs) breakdowns in the train or track, or wildlife that gets in the way, or....

    Some of these things can be done by you, some by modders, some by friends in MP (IF mp ever gets fixed omg patch already), but some must be done by KSH, and they said they would.

    I understand YOU are satisfied with the game content as is (as well), but, to say others must also be happy with it and not hold Keen to the advertising I've already pointed out, is just plain wrong.
     
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