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SE - Abandoned/Finished

Discussion in 'General' started by Dragonspride, Apr 1, 2018.

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Should Keen Release SE as open source if they abandon it?

  1. I agree

    49 vote(s)
    53.8%
  2. I dissagree

    34 vote(s)
    37.4%
  3. I don't know

    8 vote(s)
    8.8%
Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Morloc Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    264
    If I wanted an application just to design spaceships and see them in action maybe Solidworks or AutoCAD would fit the bill. Adobe AE or a big box of Lego maybe?

    The most important point is that the sandbox foundation that Keen laid down is a good one! It wouldn't take a lot of effort to put the "game" in the game with what they have. Pirates and spiders were an excellent 1st step; if fact, if those were merely tweaked and made to work correctly/consistently then bam!..you've got a game and live up to the Survival marketing. There'd be no point to me posting anything here if there wasn't a great foundation.

    Every session I've had with SE (coming up on 1300 hrs) always goes the same...have great fun laying out plans...overcome the "survival" speedbump in the first night. Days of drudgery as my (whatever) gets bigger, my performance drops in unison. A couple "wouldn't it be cool if I could"'s.....and then finally "what was the point of this??".

    Compare and contrast 7D2D for a sandbox which also has a game and the end product is balanced, fun, and takes far, far longer to get to the "why am I still doing this??" phase.

    (None of this is a much of a criticism of Keen or anything btw....just my lamenting over getting to 94% of the finish line on something that'd have a LOT of replay value with that extra 6%).


    -Morloc
     
    • Agree Agree x 6
  2. Replic TuaniOne Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    482
    I wished they finished Multiplayer better, even if this was not originally planned.
    It's such a shame, it's too bored to go in alone, to bad to go with more than 2 people.

    Does it feel abandoned? yes, a bit, but on the other side, they are still working on it right? just not weekly patches anymore?
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. Malware Master Engineer

    Messages:
    9,663
    @Replic TuaniOne Correct. And the next major is indeed focused on multiplayer, as stated by Marek himself.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  4. PLPM Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    842
    SE`s only strong point is bashing together a creation that has some functional blocks, or is functional itself and then mixing it with other creations. And being engaged by that is not bad or wrong or laughable in any way.

    However, considering ALL the stuff the dev team has thrown at the wall to see if it sticks, SE is terribly under-performing in all other manners. and its flagship feature, building has not been fleshed out since 2014, unless you count bug-fixes or perfomance improvements as fleshing out. If anyone is happy just building, then he`d be happy with the features of a build from four years ago. Now, I`m not saying thats bad, that`s exactly the reason I bought SE, I could build well enough and see other peoples builds in 2014.

    But it has been four years, and everything is essentially the same but running better. SE as a sandbox is incredibly huge in what you can build, but that`s only two dimensional, instead of three-dimensional. A PURE sandbox game is at balance being three-dimensional, with that I mean that not only can you freely build, but you can freely control. AKA Garrysmod, where not only can you make ballons using ballons, but also using propane tanks, or bathtubes, its mental.

    In SE you`re stuck with default properties in your blocks, and there`s a severe lack of variety and actual engineering involved for something to work, unless you want a threaded excavator or such. Grids magically balance thrusters forces along with supplying electricity, even if two parts are only connected by a catwalk or a mangled block. There is no structural integrity to be aware of. So designs don`t require much forethought aside of conveyor lines, and even then, that`s easily solved. It`s rather shallow for an engineering game.

    In real life you need to engineer ANYTHING to quite a severe extent if you want it to work correctly and last.
    In SE that`s not true unless you go out of your way to design something that does need engineering and is complex in nature.

    If making a dreadnaught involved power lines, cooling, reactor banks, and maintenance depending on how hard the block is working (so you`d need to have stuff be easily at your reach), Crew quarters with oxygen presurization, targetting computer servers, etc. Things that would be needed to account for the ship to actually work.

    Building would be exponentially more challenging than it is, you`d need to overcome WAY more stuff than just "does it have a cockpit along with enough gyros, thrusters and reactors?" for the bare minimum. And even after that, having it be redundant would be way more involved than just slapping a reactor on a god forsaken corner of your ship.
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
  5. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,183
    Same to you, bro.

    Yeah. All that happens with model railroading. Mostly by fans, not the model companies. We like doing our own thing and don't necessarily wait for the companies to do things for us. Been that way for decades.

    You are talking about encounters and trade. Encounters are already in the game as placeholders. Trade will probably not happen. It's been discussed in these forums and there are issues. If Keen hard-codes an economic system it will be DOA and there will be mods to remove it. An economic system might be part of the game you want, but it's outside the scope of the game they're making.

    What MUST Keen do and where, exactly, did they document they would do it?

    Never said everyone must be happy. I said if you are not happy you have some decisions to make. I'm still waiting for the misleading advertising that says Keen is working on making Space Engineers a Survival Game with Everything. I will admit that I don't spend a lot of time scouring the internet for Space Engineers advertisements, so it is possible I may have missed something. The links you will provide will be greatly appreciated.

    I think Seven Days to Die is just a less complicated game to make. I have never played it and I've wasted a few hours trying to watch people play it on Twitch.

    The difference between something like 7D2D and SE is that, relatively, 7D2D is familiar territory. It's that old-school stuff spiffed up with the latest technology. SE is new ground in unfamiliar territory. Unless there is an actual astronaut in the audience (and there might be) no one here has ever experienced space flight or tried to live in space. This is why fans wanted planets, because they wanted something familiar. They wanted to be able to walk around and breathe without worrying if there was enough uranium in the reactor. People build spacecraft in SE as if they were in a place that has "up" and "down". They have "tops" and "bottoms". Why? Cause we don't know any better. If we all had some time in space we would design spacecraft differently. When we have "space battles" we use conventional terrestrial tactics. In three dimensional space. Why? because we don't know any better. All most of us know about living and working is space is what we see on TV and in the movies, none of which is even close. Space Engineers doesn't get it perfect, but it at least tries very hard. SE isn't a game about surviving monsters and zombies in space. It's a game about living and working in space. It's a lot harder to make a game about THAT,

    I don't know if any part of the 7D2D game involves building a spacecraft and leaving the planet, but if it does then that should delight a whole bunch of disappointed SE fans.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  6. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    460
    I could be dumb and take you literally and say 'dwahhh but the game already has monsters and doesn't pay you for your work because there's no money in the game', but I'm trying to see your point. Which is what exactly? As far as I can see it's that the game should be about work and/or making pointless cool things and that we should be grateful for that.

    Any improvement that requires access to the core code of the game. Documentation not required.

    Already answered previously. I'm not banging my head against a wall.

    This. I would also add better NPC AI so the modders have more to work with.

    Wiring, water plumbing (in a need food and water to live sense), and structural integrity are all excellent ideas which go with my point that while the game is good enough as it is, it still feels like it needs more as it's too easy as it is. Structural integrity is kinda in there already as anyone who uses conveyors to connect 2 sections learns the first time they bump it into something. It could be improved though.

    The problem with food/water for survival currently is that you'd need no respawn enabled and I don't know anyone who plays like that because it's too easy to die for no reason.
     
  7. PLPM Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    842
    I`d say that structural integrity is too taxing as is for SE. Nevertheless, it`s an example of how we don`t have solve practical problems due to having a very simplifyed building game.
     
  8. Morloc Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    264
    Indeed. One must remember to recharge your suit with air and energy. Once you establish that, then there's one or two "steps" (30 min?) to having unlimited energy and air forever. If you want to make a game about this, you're going to need to deliver a lot more.

    You can work on efficiency...maybe play on all "realistic" survival settings so you can walk back and forth between your assembler and the block you're constructing 28 times. You can work on style...which nobody's really going to see or appreciate, but of course there's always your own enjoyment. I'll admit I was completely stoked when I completed my 1st tracking solar array and saw it in action.

    As far as the relative complexities of 7d2d vs. SE though...well, for a game that's all about the wonders of physics, I do get a chuckle at how I can build a 300 block girder in a 1g environment without even whipping out my welder. In 7d2d which ~has~ a structural integrity system, I need to consider material strength, maximum length, load, redundancy, durability, etc. when I build something. And yes, of course there are limitations and concessions made in each game, but again...SE could be a decent game with just a small amount of effort. Fix pirates and fauna up a bit and I'd be pretty happy. Add a mechanism in so that pirates' aggression ramps up with how much trouble you cause them, and I'd be even more happy.

    {EDIT: Once again, I bring up something in my post that someone else has already touched on. Sorry again.}

    -Morloc
     
  9. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,183
    Well, all I can say is my son bought Skyrim when it came out and 400 mods and some computer upgrades later it became the game he wanted. Every time Keen adds something people demand ten more things in order for the game to be "decent". If Keen tries to meet every demand they will never release. Most of the things people are demanding are available as mods. One way or another all the most popular mods will eventually work, as will the game itself. If Keen just makes the current game stable and predictable all the gaps will get filled in and you will be able to make the game work the way you want, and it will work for your friends as well.

    Should Keen do it all in order to assure that everyone will be playing the same game? I don't think they can. They will have to pick and choose and some people will not be happy. I would prefer the gravity generator be eliminated or severely nerfed. That's not going to happen so I have to play the game with a block available to everyone that I would prefer not exist. I can either not play or live with it. For the moment I do not have to live with lasers but who knows? All I know is that the game has apparently reached a stage where Keen is drawing a line on blocks and features in order to finish the product. Many will call the final product "unfinished" regardless. Some will find that unacceptable. I have neither an answer for that nor a course of action to suggest. If people want to go after Keen with pitchforks and torches I would just like to know what they hope to accomplish or what's their idea of success. I like the game as is and I still anticipate I will like most of what they have yet to install so I know I'll be all right, especially since I have no aversion to mods, since I'm convinced the vanilla game will definitely fall short of my personal expectations. I don't see it working out any other way.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  10. Cetric Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    809
    We have already the casual or demi-casual or simply unimaginative players complain and nag all the time about how 'elitist' SE is... this what you mention certainly sounds interesting, but in effect it would only enlarge the already existing gap between ambitious builders and mentioned group which wants everything handy on their capability level. Sorry. Any game has to balance this, as the prime objective still remains; to make enough money by sales to make it into the next boxing round.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. Morloc Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    264
    Planets were made a thing like 2-1/2 years ago. I think you could have said roughly the same thing then too.

    -Morloc
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  12. Logi Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    170
    This is something that people should bring up more, Space Engineers has been in bug fixing and beta improvements mode all the way since planets. And that is a lot of time wasted recycling old bugs over and over again. Time that could have been used to add some flesh on top of the broken bones. Instead Keen decided to skip the flesh part and dressed the skeleton with fancy clothes.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  13. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,183
    I'm pretty sure that the introduction of planets is what set back the release date. Back then we were hearing noises from Keen that perhaps they were ready to finish the game. They were already dealing with the shitty multiplayer they didn't want to put in and someone figured out they could actually do planets. Planets and multiplayer are what they are dealing with now. Had neither been introduced the game would be out now. One could argue whether or not that would have been a good thing.

    Argue with someone else, that is ;)

    No, this is the only thing anyone brings up ever all the time, mainly because they have no idea how video games are made and what decisions have to be reached. They just think people get together and decide to do a game and then they just do it.

    Try it yourself some time.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  14. Sich Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    89
    I play only because there are planet....
    I probably never started playing the game without those planet....

    Space is fine, but you need something to fill all that space...

    And I think that a lot of players are only here because they added the planet...
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    460
    Yeah, planets pretty much give space meaning, otherwise we'd be calling it Void Engineers. If it weren't for planets we'd have to use gravity generators to watch our trains go round (shudders). Getting from surface to orbit and back is one of those challenges I'm talking about that (would) make the game fun. Definitely worth the delay.
     
  16. Jikanta Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    418
    I think a lot of players were here before planets. Like me. I was happy without planets as well. Interesting enough I played SE way more often before planets where put in.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  17. Hotshot Jimmy Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,500
    I was fine without planets but like mobile phones i'd never go back to not having them. There is no going back now.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  18. Morloc Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    264
    --- Automerge ---
    Not that I'd want to get rid of planets, but I also don't own a mobile. :p

    Luddite engineer! lol

    -Morloc
    --- Automerge ---
    Perhaps we need to add the Tiny Violin block? :p

    From my perspective though, you may be correct when you imply that the problem is with a lack of understanding about how video game are made. Far too many producers/developers jump into the breach with the best intentions and great ideas only to be whacked with the reality bat. Yet!...somehow, there are games which most people would agree are "good". In my 40+ years of video gaming I've seen stuff that wouldn't work out of the box that became best-in-genre, and I've seen companies get it (almost) perfect every time. The one thing I've seen the most of though is crap. Megashittonnes of crap over the years. We buy it, justify why it was actually "OK", and encourage more crap. On the other hand I'm well aware of how game developers have lost so much of their profit share due to modern marketing models, piracy and competition. I do feel for those folks compared to they guys making games in the 90s.



    -Morloc
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  19. PLPM Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    842
    Yeah, it`d be extremely specific and that would have hurt the sales, past, present and future, no doubt. From the business perspective I can say Keen may have made a good decision to expand their demographic, but as with expanding your own reach goes, you need to make sure you`re still able to squeeze on what you`re holding, lest it begin crumbling.

    I can`t say if it was good or bad, its just that it might be biting them off now. Still, this is not unsolvable, one way or the other.
     
  20. halipatsui Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,253

    You hit the spot with this one
    --- Automerge ---

    If i remember right it was aragath that tought that inventory multipliers cut off plenty of gameplay.

    For example that running around thing would challenge you to engineer a welder ship? Or maybe a robotic arm? To build youe other crafts.

    There surely are people wirh differing opinions but imo he definitely has a point.
    People are missing tons of gameplay enabled by se only by picking the easy route.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  21. Cetric Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    809
    Oh yes. And always KEEN is guilty.
    Basically these I meant when I spoke of 'unimaginative' players the post before.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  22. odizzido Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    672
    Building solutions to problems is what SE needs but unfortunately there are very few problems to solve. This is made worse by the few problems we do have being incredibly simple to solve. There is an optimisation process which is where I had most of my fun.

    If there were more problems to overcome such as heat management, torque, gas giants, radiation, processing facilities, lava, etc etc this game could have had a good survival aspect. But that's not going to happen so they should focus on getting multiplayer working, add a mode where you build combat ships in creative mode then battle them out in survival, which would allow other players to challenge your designs. If they can get that working well then we will at least have a game and it will be unique.
     
  23. Malware Master Engineer

    Messages:
    9,663
    That's already possible right now by leveraging spacemaster.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  24. Dragonspride Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    460


    This is one of the things I wanted from SE. For a critical interview. SE to step up and actually engage with its community in a critical interview. This made me happy. More of this.
     
    • Late Late x 3
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  25. Thrak Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    536
    This. For all the gripes I am reading about "players don't understand software development" and "unimaginative players," I place a lot of this at Keen's feet because of their inconsistent and inexpert communication. The Early Access scheme adds substantial burdens to software development, and Keen's shouldering of those burdens has been... meh... at best. I, too, am pleased that it is getting better.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  26. odizzido Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    672
    Yeah kinda. I mean you can do that but damage would still be on so there wouldn't be anything but honour stopping people from hammering people mid design unless an admin was present. A nice automated system for this would be nice.
     
  27. ExpendableGrunt Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    9
    This is the biggest complaint I have with Space Engineers in a nutshell. Somewhere along the line, Keen's patch testing became incompetent. It was rare when the weekly update fixed more issues than it created. It's hard to appreciate the many great features in SE when they are never working at the same time. They obviously have some incredibly talented coders on staff, so I consider this a failure of management.

    Survival, in particular, has been in a state of "two steps forward, two steps back" for ages now; and considering all the bugs that the 1.186 update introduced, they have taken an update hiatus with Survival at its worst state in a year, IMO.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  28. Malware Master Engineer

    Messages:
    9,663
    @ExpendableGrunt There's no update "hiatus". This is the new norm. No weekly updates, only full focus on majors. They do this because the weekly update kept interfering... causing just exactly the kind of issues you speak of. In my opinion they should have done this a long time ago.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  29. ExpendableGrunt Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    9
    Oh, I agree. I've been around SE long enough to know the deal. But, the Steam forums are awash with new players wondering why the wolves just stand there, and other, similar complaints. The current state of the Survival game is a poor represention of the actual game. Keen's timing was pretty bad, but I agree that it's better late than never.
     
  30. Malware Master Engineer

    Messages:
    9,663
    That remains to be seen :p
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
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