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Serious talk... Scratched and "damaged" blocks.

Discussion in 'General' started by LFCavalcanti, Aug 11, 2016.

?

Do you like the new textures being scrathed and/or damaged in some areas?

Poll closed Aug 25, 2016.
  1. Yes, I like the textures showed to us until now.

    25.0%
  2. Yes, But I think only metallic parts should be scrachted.

    20.5%
  3. I don't have a preference on this.

    4.5%
  4. No, let me choose if I want them scratched or not.

    38.6%
  5. No, textures should be all undamaged and shinny once created.

    11.4%
Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. RedPhoenix Moderator

    Messages:
    817
    Most probably they won't do this, simply because its just adding more tasks to their workboard.

    There is no worse in such discussion, only different.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  2. LFCavalcanti Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,378
    Regarding Windows there is a "worse", because Windows serves a functional role on ships, specially big ships. As they are now, for example, they are actively taking 20-30% visibility from the player.

    An Armor Block, for example, nothing worse or better, only differences as you stated, because the textures serve no functional role in the game other than aesthetics.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  3. BlackUmbrellas Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,818
    Everybody already knows the windows are "too scratched"- even if I think that that's more an issue of the texture glitching out in anything but perfect lighting conditions, I recognize it as a problem. This thread is clearly not about the windows.
     
  4. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    4,841

    That is brilliant. Being able to toggle the worn look via the painting tool would work for everyone. I would set up the same toggle in the INFO menu to govern what type of look defaults when placing the block.

    Being able to make certain parts of a ship look more worn than others would actually be a little more realistic. The outer hull might be all scratched up on a mining ship, while the interior is still in like-new condition. A ship that is derelict may have dirty and scratched up glass, while something you JUST welded would not.

    I think that would satisfy everyone.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  5. Hotshot Jimmy Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,500
    A few points I'd like to make;

    I personally don't mind the scratched armour, especially what we were shown in the couple of latest updates. I was salivating over that heavy armour we were shown. As a texture it was fantastic! But it is down to PERSONAL taste and I think we need to remember that Keen cannot make everyone happy at the same time. Some prefer their ships to look like they have literally been built and pressed and some like to have there's looking like it was pulled through a meteor backwards. I do think the current designs are overtones from the Miner Wars. Think about it. We are talking about a game where you need to mine/drill/excavate for materials to then build (I am ignoring creative just now) you ships. So having ships nearby meteors even if they are not drilling them I bet they would become scratched at the very least with material flying off the surface of the rock. So personally I feel the "rough" look they are going for is correct for the games setting. Space is harsh as **** and metals deteriorate. Why not visually show that?

    Now windows... I can only repeat what has come before. I personally don't like the texture. I think this is compounded by the fluidic nature of the visual settings and lighting characteristics. These change every now and again and with this the glass does look pretty dam bad.

    Now about the comments about people between people in here. Some are having bigger problems playing SE than others. I think it shouldn't matter what state you build in (Survival or creative). We all play for different reasons. I can see both sides of the arguments raised here and because of that I shall not comment on the topics other than what was originally asked of us.

    Bottom line;

    Keen should model the game on what they envisioned it to be whether that involves dirty scratched environments or clean and pressed ones because in the end they can't please everyone at once and there's nothing worse than a disjointed game because they bowed to pressure.

    My personal bottom line;

    Clean the glass up a little.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Agree Agree x 3
  6. BlackUmbrellas Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,818
    It bears mentioning in how everyone has swapped talking about the new textures to the window textures: they're clearly not final. The scratched, glitchy windows aren't the fancy final PBR ones we'll finish with.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 4
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. LFCavalcanti Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,378
    Can you provide us sources to your statements?

    I ask because these Windows are DX11 textures. Sure, they can change it, that's the point of this thread, discussing about this in the upcoming textures for DX11.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  8. Thedevistator Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,942
    Well I'd say if a lot of people really cared I wouldn't put it past them otherwise probably not. The thing that's really interesting that people might not know is the old armor texture had a system similar to this. If you placed a white armor block with hight saturation it would have this rust on it but with low saturation it wouldn't. Obviously I don't think that was 100% the intention but it did introduce an interesting concept.
    I was actually thinking about it and came up with a better solution. A saturation slider for stuff like the scratches. Now I don't know exactly how their color system works so this is guessing but it might be easier because they already have a system like it in place with block colors. This would also allow people who like the dirt and scratches but think it's too much right now keep the look but not as extreme. This is of course only if they're willing to do it.
    On the subject of Keen quickly people are correct in saying keen makes the final choice. That doesn't mean you can't at least give them an idea of how to do it potentially better so they can at least consider it.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Agree Agree x 2
  9. SaturaxCZ Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,718
    + allow change/customize color of glass from 1 sides and it will be perfect.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. tankmayvin Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,863
    You're really nitpicking here.......
    --- Automerge ---
    Ummmm......planets? Planets evolved almost exclusively as a response to player feedback.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. BlackUmbrellas Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,818
    Gimme some evidence that the current window texture is PBR-based.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  12. Commander Rotal Master Engineer

    Messages:
    4,977
    They have said repeatedly that they are working on new glass which was used as an excuse not to fix the current one. We KNOW new glass is comming, we just don't know how scratchy it's going to be or why they have not yet fixed the current one when it clearly seems to take them years to implement the new one. I mean the old glass didn't just move to Florida, that code must still lay around somewhere. Modders can easily fix it so there's no excuse for Keen not to.
    I don't think anyone earnestly has a problem with the new glass taking long but not making the old one useable in the meantime if it's going to take this long is just rude.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  13. FlakMagnet Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,551
    It's just a texture overlay... it takes a few minutes to change. They do not need a new model, or any code changes.

    They may be making completely new window models with completely new textures.... but they could put something better out later and simply tone down the scratching on the mesh they do have.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  14. LFCavalcanti Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,378
    Nitpicking in what? I don't get it...

    That is our fear isn't it?
    In the meantime it's the purpose of this thread.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. PLPM Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    842
    Well... Keen really messed that one up in all ways, in theory one can make a ship into a station without voxels, there´s an option while accesing the grid menu, but it´s just a mess. Now I have a floating small ship Rover that´s a hybrid between a station and a ship... I´ve taken a rest from SE, it´s a shame really.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  16. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,174
    And suddenly I realize why so few people were in the change log forum early Thursday.

    Anyways I agree that while it's nice to get people opinions on the upcoming armor texture, it's also important to remember that one of the most definitive aspects of any game is the art. It's a decision that has to be made early in the process because changing the art in the middle of development is a bad idea, which brings me to this comment:
    Which is totally not how I see what happened with respect to the glass. I think what happened is that the artists made a placeholder texture for the glass with full knowledge and understanding that it was not final, and there was only one person on the planet that had a problem with it: Marek Rosa. He said, "Change the glass." They said, "Um, it will be a pain in the ass to do that now. It will affect a lot of other things." Marek said, "I don't like the glass, I don't care how much work it is, I'm the boss." They said, "OK, fine. You want scratched glass, you got it." Then Marek got to see what changing the glass meant, and notice that he did not insist it get changed back, even given the flak Keen has received and continues to receive. Now the glass gets changed when the time is actually right and not because somebody, even the boss, says so.

    The art in the game is not arbitrary. They hire people specifically to tackle it. The artists are given a goal/vision/concept. Artists are picked because their previous work indicates that they already produced the kind of art Keen is looking for. I suspect they could have gotten just anybody to produce New and Shiny. This is Space Engineers. Brand New is not in the portfolio. Not even temporarily. Worn takes talent. Don't believe me try it yourself. I'll bet you'll be better at New than Worn.

    Right now the poll suggests that most people that bothered to participate don't have a problem with the upcoming texture, and only slightly more believe a choice would be a good compromise. That being said, the choice already exists. In fact you can choose to have a number of different textures ranging from stainless steel to pure rust. One quick click in the Workshop and you could even have wood blocks. Wood. Talk about choice. Keen only needs to supply one texture, and that's their signature texture: worn. That is the texture that defines Space Engineers. Wanting anything different (as in non-standard) means you want the block modified. Keen doesn't do modified. Modders do. It would be different if Keen didn't allow mods. One unchanging texture is enough for the game to work. It's a simple, uncomplicated solution that has the least impact on performance. I can tell you as someone that uses a lot of block mods with complicated textures that you do not want the game trying to figure out how old each and every block in the game is in order to apply the correct texture. Seriously. You want the blocks you use the most to have the least impact on performance. That's why you're not going to get sliders or texture packs or game-induced wear over time. At least, not from Keen.

    that, and this wonderful gem:
    That'll be the day.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  17. Acolyte Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    109
    Last night I looked at the poll and more people disliked the textures than liked them (sum of bottom two entries).

    Today is the same , 51% dislike, with 6% no opinion, so definitely a majority for no-likes.

    And they say the numbers can't lie :whatever:
     
  18. Seff Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    236
    Last time I looked at the poll, the likes actually had a slim lead. But even now, I would hardly call it a majority of no-likes.

    Small sample size (we don't even have 50 votes in the poll yet), nonrandom polling (the topic is a bit more likely to draw in people who might be opposed to the change. People who are satisfied with it just go off and do other things. People who don't like it are going to go look for a place to complain about it). The answers are also not "clean." For instance, the second from the bottom, "No, let me choose if I want them scratched or not," can draw votes from people who are actually alright with the new textures, but they just want the ability to choose when and where they are used (or want some type of wear system added to the game). It could even simply draw in people who actually are ambivalent and really belong in the "no preference" answer, but like the nebulous idea of "more choice" even if that idea is infeasible. The suggestion sounds simple on the surface, but it could end up being complicated to implement because of how block/model/texture references are stored. But people just hear, "We could have both and you could choose which one in the paint menu!" and think, "Yeah, that sounds easy, I don't really care right now which one is implemented, but I'd love to have choice in case I care in the future." Likewise, the "Only metallic parts should be scratched" result. Only the metal so far has been scratched up. The keypads are fine, the arrow symbol on the conveyor sorter isn't scratched up, why is this option here? Is it just for those concerned about scratched windows?

    The lack of rigor in the poll (ha-HA!) aside, it's a little disingenuous to lump "no opinion" in with dislikes. They may not actively like the textures, but that doesn't mean you get to claim them as no-likes and imply a higher percentage of opposition than exists. They neither like nor dislike.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  19. Stiletto Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    381
    Good thing that user made polls in a forum hardly represent the majority of the game's community. So, they are quite pointless to be used as uh... evidence or proof that people like or dislike something. The sample is simply too small and insignificant. Of course, people are gonna use it in a biased way (like most forum polls are biased).
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  20. Commander Rotal Master Engineer

    Messages:
    4,977
    It's been like this for a while. I suppose it's a mix of people generally losing faith and/or interest in SE, and i suspect more than just a few players only took a peek into the update threads because SE updated. And with sooo many people not even knowing they're on Fable Branche they probably just think SE has stopped updating.
    --- Automerge ---
    Unless they implement an automated poll when loading up SE to get a proper sample size it's the best we have. If no more people care to speak up how is Keen supposed to hear their feedback? Rolling dice? Asking a wishbone? Consulting a shaman?
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  21. Stiletto Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    381
    Like in all games, there is a rather big chunk of the community that does not participate in forum discussions or votes in polls (likely don't even read it either). You might not realize that those are the bulk of Keen's sales, and they don't even report any sort of bugs that they might encounter. A lotta people just patiently and quietly wait for the game to get better, mind you.

    So, yes. Polls in here can't really be considered valid statistics as they represent a tiny sample, in my opinion.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
  22. Michael_6748967 Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    95
    It would be nice if they made the "worn look" optional and put a list of textures that can be disabled (or replaced with non-worn equivalents) under a new Aesthetics section in the options window.

    I absolutely hate the window dirt/scratches/hue. And, while we're on the subject, the gray edges of armor panels that seem to appear/disappear when painting. It's a shame that I have to install mods to make my new ships look new, not something bought on neo-ebay.

    /subjective
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
  23. noxLP Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    729
    Guys, every forum poll will be useless in statistics terms, that's obvious, the usually sample size accepted profesionally for statistics are 200 individuals(although it seems a REALLY poor number to me and other professionals i know), that's without speaking about a real set of questions made by sociologists and psychologists, sampling techniques accros different person groups, etc. It's obvious.

    But who cares? Express yourself politely and enjoy, we all knows that Keen have added to the game lots of features just because people asked for it, there's no argument that can deny it(it's a fact), the same that there's no argument that can sustain that a simple forum poll can be treated like a serious statistic.

    I still think the same that i wrote before, current state of windows are too much, armor and the rest showed at the video fits perfectly the survival environment of SE, so personally I'm perfectly happy with it.
    Regarding the system to choose scratches/no scratches, i read somewhere at this thread someone said a simple tool to "clean" the blocks that would change the textures. It's the idea i like the most from what i've read in this thread.
     
  24. Commander Rotal Master Engineer

    Messages:
    4,977
    Actually the "survival"-aspect should demand LESS scratches. In Creative (half of the game and the original design philosophy, which is apparently all the rage to mention lately) i can somewhat buy that the ship i'm building has "always been there"; no assembling of the materials, no looking for materials, no manual labour required in-universe and you're just hammering out a pre-existing ship. But in Survival you're doing all of that. And your Assembler isn't pooping out scratched blocks but shiny new ones. If your Assembler sucks at a coat of paint it probably sucks at insulation, cable management and not dividing by 0 as well. You might as well introduce a block that simulate a bite taken out of it, like a giant metal sammich, because that makes about as much sense.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 3
    • Agree Agree x 2
  25. tankmayvin Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,863
    Yeah, that's pretty much exactly what I was saying.

    I've got arrays of "hand of god" welders. Microfabs that can turn lumps of ore into any piece of technology imaginable. I have ships that can self repair pretty much arbitrary damage. I have ships that can print their own precision guided missiles.

    But somehow that missile I just made is all dinged up, etc before it's even left the rail.

    Right...
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  26. noxLP Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    729
    I insist, you guys are thinking the way you want to, in survival you are alone lost in some planet(or at some asteroid) with robodogs, pirates, alien spiders, meteors and rocks trying to take to the ground your miner ship(in fact, EVERY ship you build), and you don't have a maid that cleans your ship every time you come back to the base after all that things, no maids, no young soldiers you can order clean the ships, so NO, in survival, after the first half hour of use, your ships are NEVER going to be immaculate again.
    Even speaking about multiplayer someone should do something, at least symbolic, to have the ships "clean" again.

    That's why i liked the idea of a tool for changing the textures, if you want to take the time to do it, you do it. In creative it could be a checkbox in the painting window, why not?
    --- Automerge ---
    To be fair, i have to say too that of course there's no look that fit or don't fit the game in creative, that's definitely true. Of course, since the game is a sandbox and in creative you can do whatever you like, the aesthetic part is a matter of tastes, it can even be not a matter of tastes but a matter or adequately translating(or copying, why not) what you want to build into the game, that's obvious for me too.
    My point with saying that it fits survival is that it's the original, general aesthetic idea devs have for the game. Yes, it's a sandbox so you can imagine and build whatever you like, but the game have too (and i write it bolded because both things are not mutually exclusive... i'm not even sure if that's correct in english, anyway, that one of the choices don't exclude the other one, they coexist) a more or less planned by devs aesthetic, which are showed in survival.
    And I know that survival came after creative, even by community demand, but that's not an argument against it: why shouldn't change the general aesthetic idea driven by the game mechanics changes? I don't see the problem there.

    One last thing guys, you are getting a little impatient, don't you think? It's possible that i'm getting old and this type of things don't affect me anymore the way they did years ago, i'll turn 38 the 20th :woot:
    Anyway, wait to see the textures and models IN the game, and then we talk.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  27. Ribs Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    189
    you are taking refined metal plates made from a SMALL assembly machine, and welding them together. what do you expect?? there's going to be welding marks and scratches.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
  28. SaturaxCZ Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,718
    Before you weld it you need to degrase it/clean ( some times iron parts are colored/paint against corosion ) prepare 45 angles on both sides, then you welding it, then you can ( no needed) grind it off, degrase it/clean it ( if you didnt do it corectly first time ) and then you use color/paint on it. Short: Welding can not creat scratches on colors/paint ;)
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
  29. FlakMagnet Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,551
    If it was welding seams and burn marks and the only texture colour was bare metal...I would buy that. But it isn't. We also apply 'paint' by means of a welder.........so however we envisage blocks being created, it requires a small degree of suspension of disbelief.

    If you look at planet based real life mining operations, you will see a range of conditions for equipment based on age.

    As far as survival/creative goes....I would not still be playing it if it was just creative. Just constructing stuff out of unlimited resources has limited appeal as there is no challenge to it. I prefer survival as it puts you in a position where all the steps available have meaning. Refinery and assembler blocks are pointless in creative. As is mining. And welding...and grinding is only for those who are making use of construction stages of blocks to give a different look. Without survival though, there is no need for construction stages.

    Anyways.

    I like to think the devs want to make this game as good as it can posibly be, and by providing ideas and opinions, we may come up with things they never realised we like. That may or may not influence the game....but I hope it helps.

    IMHO it would be great if blocks 'aged' in survival with a couple of stages from pristine to knackered but I don't expect to see it happen. I EXPECT rotors to get fixed, glass to be able to pass light through and pistons to behave. I EXPECT these things because the devs made them. I never asked for them. They made them. Broken.

    So whilst I have no expectations of my ideas or suggestions ever becoming part of the grand plan, I can still dream :)
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  30. Ribs Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    189
    i don't see the space engineer doing that so your argument is invalid
     
    • Like Like x 1
Thread Status:
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