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Serious talk... Scratched and "damaged" blocks.

Discussion in 'General' started by LFCavalcanti, Aug 11, 2016.

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Do you like the new textures being scrathed and/or damaged in some areas?

Poll closed Aug 25, 2016.
  1. Yes, I like the textures showed to us until now.

    25.0%
  2. Yes, But I think only metallic parts should be scrachted.

    20.5%
  3. I don't have a preference on this.

    4.5%
  4. No, let me choose if I want them scratched or not.

    38.6%
  5. No, textures should be all undamaged and shinny once created.

    11.4%
Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. chrisb Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,460
    I do prefer the older style finish to the blocks. With this newer style, I think they're trying to make it look gritty, for some reason. But a choice is the best thing, I suppose, not sure how much work that is.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  2. carnivore Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    158
    I like the new armor design. However, I think it's time to get rid of the "armor edges." If anything, those make ships look unnatural and weird.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2016
    • Agree Agree x 5
  3. tankmayvin Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,863
    Then why should a brand new ship that's just been welded instantly look like shit?

    People keep justifying why blocks should be aged and heavily abused, but these justifications have little bearing on the actual game as it is played. Not in survival and definitely not in creative.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 4
    • Agree Agree x 3
  4. noxLP Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    729
    If they could make something so the scratches appear as time pass, I would agree with you, and you can bet i wouldn't complain if they came with such a system, but being realist, i don't think so. No because it's a bad thing or because the performance(i won't speak about performance because i have no idea what impact it would have), just because it's an aesthetic detail without much more importance besides some personal tastes and the game have really important things to make and correct. I don't think we are seeing such a system in the short run. Later? Who knows.

    In the meanwhile, again, in survival the time a ship would be immaculate after building it, compared with the time it would be scratched, is ridiculously short. It's not a justification, it's reality, in survival you don't make a ship to be staticly exposed in a glass cabinet, you make a ship to mining, to fight, to transport things, the ship is continuously exposed to all the hazards and dirty. Again, we don't have maids no young soldiers no cleaning tools. It's obvious the ship would end that way sooner rather than later. If we have to choose one of two because there's no other way, it's only logic the ship have to be a bit scratched.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  5. tankmayvin Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,863
    Dude....

    How many hours does a survival game actually last before people get bored and start a new one, etc? 100hr? 200hr?

    Nothing gets that banged to shit in a few hundred hours of mostly sitting in empty space. The ISS modules have been up there for years and no one has been space walking to touch up the paintjobs. They look pretty fresh minus the couple of very localized micro debris impact marks.

    The ISS is in an environment that is millions of times more risky and polluted that the truly empty space that SE is supposed to take place in (gamey asteroid population notwithstanding).

    Again, ships sitting around doing absolutely nothing, or routine non-mining operations aren't going to get smashed up and dirty. I can literally repaint any ship I want with a magic wand. And my welders can pretty much instantly rebuilt combat damage.

    If my welders can magically un-deform a smashed up block back to pristine shape, they sure as shit could buff out a few dings and scratches.

    But somehow my shit is all scratched up? That's really just absurd.

    Another example. Player X builds "pride of the fleet uber battleship turret spam". You're seriously going to tell me that in their internal head-cannon/fantasy they now have to include that their military is actually a bunch of lazy fuckers that don't keep their ships maintained and looking good? Militaries maintain their equipment, why should the fictional space militaries people cook up (of which there are tons, look around the forums) now HAVE to be lazy and slapshod because of a texture choice.

    You know exactly what's going to happen here right? Exactly like what happened with scratched to shit windows.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
  6. noxLP Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    729
    Well, ;) what hours are you speaking about? Real hours or INGAME hours? 100-200 hours playing are a bunch of ingame hours. And well, i don't know how you do play survival, but i don't waste resources making ships to just sitting in empty space, you know, if some of my ships are just sitting around it means i don't need it, so i grind it ASAP. If i don't grind them, they are doing their job, recieving rocks impacts while mining, bullets impacts, and what not.

    Again, i agree though that if we have magical welders we could have a tool that "clean" the scratches, maybe even the same welder(now it's magical anyway, so why not), i said earlier that imo it's the better way to handle it.

    If we someday have NPCs (I doubt it, but well) I'll agree with you about the battleship, if not, go take responsibility for building such a beast and clean it yourself :D

    Anyway, i can understand that you are afraid of it going too much like the f* windows, but man, patience, there's no reason to think that way, it can happen but it don't HAVE to happen. Lets just wait to see it ingame and we'll see how it goes.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. FlakMagnet Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,551
    Makes me chuckle about people 'messing up' the interior of a ship. With what? No food wrappers.....no food. I can't even take off my spacesuit to leave that lying around. Besides...most of the time I am on my own!

    I build a lovely base ship and send mining vessels out to get ore. They should get beat up.... the base ship not.

    Noe, getting away from the issues of the magic painting welder and the invisible Gremlins taking an angle grinder to my freshly built blocks ( and possbly messing up the interior too... ) I would like to consider the technical aspects of the game doing this.

    If you have a texture, it is not difficult to modify that texture with an overlay, or, potentially, swap the block for a similar bock with a damaged texture applied. Most of my modding and modelling experience has been with conbat flight sims, where most parts of a plane will have several models to represent damage in varying degrees. Now, the approach for that should work just fine with non-armour blocks ..... but they are NOT the issue. They do not weld in buted up and scratched to hell. No. Just the armour blocks.

    The way armour blocks handles textures is different to a single block object. To an extent the texture is tiled, but it is not a simple repeated tile pattern ( or a single one like the window scratches ) as that would look horrid. It should make it possible to vary the degree of weathering by mean of a similarly layered texture overlay. Pristine...lightly marked...current.

    It becomes quite complicated, I know, when you start to consider re-welding blocks should re-set the texture overlay to pristine, and that the different texture overlays need to live together and look OK, but it should be somethign that could be done.

    Once they have finished netcode, fixed rotors and made pistons behave. Oh...and done the new windows! I mean Microsoft can come up with a new version of Windows quicker than Keen have!
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
  8. BlackUmbrellas Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,818
    Honestly the biggest argument against this stupid "make the blocks decay" idea is that it'd require a ridiculous, ever-expanding chunk of processor time.

    You know how a game makes things decay? By checking that thing. Frequently. It can't do it in "bulk" either, it has to track each thing. Plenty of Minecraft mods are lagmonsters specifically because they introduce blocks that need to be checked by the game frequently- and while those might not be a problem at first, the nature of games like this is that players will build more, and more, and more blocks.

    If every armour block needs its own internal tracking to tell how long its been there/how long until its next decay tick, have fun doing anything.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  9. FlakMagnet Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,551
    The amount of processor time required would scale with the block count of a ship. More blocks...more time. You may be able to save time, as the game doesn't treat the armour blocks as a single block but groups them together. There are plenty of people better qualified to go along that line of thinking than I am. The catch would be forcing the game to consider them again as a single block not an group of blocks.

    IT may be that multi-threading frees up the scope to do this, or it may be that the needs of multiplayer ( lets try NOT to multiply the data we have to send ..... ) mean it's impossible.

    But a guy can dream.....and if it can't be done, maybe Keen will release a 'clean' texture pack as part of vanilla...with a simple toggle to switch.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    4,841
    I'm still pretty sold on the idea of making the "worn" look a "paintable" feature. As texture, the user could decide whether to use the worn or the new look on each block. This would only be a factor when view the block from a close range. Making things an option offers the most choices. Being able to make some blocks look worn an others not gives greater aesthetic control to the player and a higher level of satisfaction. It's analogous to being able to select the color of a block.

    I would be a big fan of many different types of selectable texture overlays for blocks. We could have burn patterns for soot from thrusters for example. Making texture overlays easy to add in from a mod would be great as well. More choice is always better when it comes to the immersive, graphical part of the game.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  11. Krougal Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,012
    Nobody mentioned the magical gravity generator, which also doubles as a....I really shouldn't...oh fuck it, I'm going to say the "S" word...warning, some of you may be offended, hide the women and children...shield against things like floating space debris, protecting my hull from minor scratches.
     
    • Funny Funny x 6
  12. damoran Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    608
    I really like the Heavy Armor textures shown on the last update video and the door and cargo container also looked great. My only worry on the door is if I can still use them as window blinds :tu: if needed.

    I think the scratched glass is too much...and I wish they'd add bigger, more substantial, metal frames or at least give us a set of those in addition to what we have now.

    Overall, I like the style with which they are going all I can ask for is more of it. Give us more blocks to give our ships some more detail.

    We could also use some more armor shapes, even if it's just simple geometric shapes and panels.

    I use the existing blocks and their deconstructed versions for a million different things, which is fine but from a survival stand point it's not the most efficient thing. I'd love for them to give us a set of decorations just as Star Made, Mine craft and just about any other voxel building game has. Not asking for much just a set of 6-8 deco blocks that can be used for just about anything and are cheap to build. Any you could even have their deconstruction models look different to add more variety.

    I don't think it's worth the brain-drain to have the textures degrade with wear and tear.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. Michael_6748967 Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    95
    Yeah the new textures are a huge improvement overall; just wish there were no scratches. No doubt some modders will clean things up so that we can have the new textures either looking new (mod) or used (vanilla). If so, this discussion will have been moot (as far as I'm concerned).

    Prior to 148 everything seemed to be made of plastic (too matte/flat/dull) and the art style was fairly crude. I wonder if the original assets were always meant to be placeholders.
     
  14. BlackUmbrellas Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,818
    Yes, full stop. The game is still in alpha- the models are there to give a rough idea of what they're meant to look like, no more, no less.
     
  15. Thedevistator Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,942
    Yes they were always place holders. In fact even way back in the early days if you read the planned features on the KSH SE website it actually talked about finishing up all the models.
     
  16. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,174
    Actually, the ISS has spent all it's time in Earth orbit and relatively protected (thank you, Jupiter). ISS has spent 0 time moving through uncharted interstellar space at speed. Wonder what Voyager looks like now?

    Here you hit upon the crux of the argument. That is, the "magic" that has to take place for the game to work at all. We are spared a great deal of the work that goes on in building something as simple as an armor block because if all of that was done realistically this game wouldn't have lasted five minutes. Imagine having to insert every bolt and turn every screw. Carefully placing every girder or hooking up every component. No, instead we wave our hand and the framework pops into perfect alignment, then through the glare of the welder we sit and watch the game do all the work. The welder is not magic. It's just that you won't sit through the real process. I'll guarantee you any ship you built in survival that took "a long time" would be under construction for years in real life. It's a game, and compromises have to be made. Ships get built Harry Potter style in creative and survival. The texture of the freshly built block is a compromise based on performance vs need. Any ideas concerning evolving textures will impact performance and I will not debate how little or how much because it's not the point. Keen chose the simplest solution. One texture. That one texture is the Space Engineers texture. It is the texture that anything built in Space Engineers will have. You don't have to like it. You can download mods that are exactly the same as the vanilla blocks in every way except the texture. There are block mods like that which have survived every update since mods became a thing, so obsolescence is not an argument. Some Modders have even solved this problem for their mods. Shadowflux provides both worn and new models for the same blocks. It's a lot simpler from a coding standpoint for the player to replace blocks in the game with one's they like rather than have the game do it for them. Why have the game calculate the age of each and every block and make a change at some arbitrary point when the players can do it themselves in a matter of seconds? Space Engineers may have a reputation for a lot of things, but it has no reputation for holding your hand. Everything in the game takes some effort.

    In peacetime, yes. During WWII, for example, most ships found the ocean floor long before they got spiffed up. Any ship that made it back to safe harbor got patched up and sent back out, minus the paint job. Some things are... more important. Yeah, right now sailors are probably doing more spit and polish work than they care to, but when the bullets are flying no one gives a fuck how good the ship looks.

    It's true. I'm 62 and these textures, armor and glass, are absolutely the least of my concerns about this game. We're talking about stuff that you can't even see unless you are right next to the block, which is seldom the case. People new to the game either don't notice or don't care. Most people seem to be more concerned with what you can do with the blocks that how scratched they are.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2016
  17. Krougal Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,012
    So get glasses :p
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
  18. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    4,841
    I'm part of the broken record club. Broken record club.

    But I really think it's bigger than scratched versus unscratched. There should be a multitude of options and styles. Certainly there should be a default for those with limited graphic cards. But the more variations we have the more diverse.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  19. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,174
    my vision is 20/10 in my left eye and 20/15 in my right eye. I see better than most people.
     
  20. BlackUmbrellas Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,818
    Again, that's what texture packs are for. Zero need for Keen to waste time and energy on it.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  21. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,174
    More to the point, that's what mods are for. They provide a multitude of options and styles. Keen shouldn't be loading up the vanilla game with stuff some computers can't handle. They keep it simple. One texture. If your computer can handle more, get mods.
     
  22. tankmayvin Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,863
    You evidently don't know diddly fuck all about the space environment do you? I mean no offense, but this is painfully untrue.

    Low earth orbit where the ISS resides is painfully pollute with all sorts of debris, much of it man made. LEO is actually characterized by having orbitally mechanics relevant atmosphere. The space station as well LEO satellites experience drag from said atmosphere and need to be re-boosted.

    In contrast the inter-planetary medium is a really, really hard vacuum. Yes there are protons (solar wind) and a variety of dusts. But the mean free path of particles between planets is measured in AU.

    Read the basic bitch wiki article please.

    I'm an engineer. I design and then make complex things every day for a living. I know perfectly well what is involved.

    You just made my point for me though. If Keen needs to settle on "one set of textures", that set shouldn't be worn out because most of the stuff built in SE has a lifespan of maybe a couple of hundred real time hours before a new instance/world is created.

    Also weathering textures involves a lot of work, especially if it needs to be randomized so as to not look dumb (as mentioned by several other posters).

    Uh...yeah no. Please show me how rusted up all of the various carriers go after various extended tours. You're obviously not very familiar with combat, because 99.999999% of combat is not actually fighting, much of that time, especially for naval crews, is spent in maintenance.

    Also, naval combat has little to do with space combat, other than the use of the term ship.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
  23. BlackUmbrellas Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,818
    In this case, texture packs and mods are the Same Thing- Space Engineers has no native support for a "true" texture pack, but plenty of mods have done the same thing by replacing the textures (or even models) used for stock blocks. No need for new blocks- just edit the textures of the existing ones.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  24. Shatara422 Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    47
    Like this one? [​IMG]
    Or maybe...?
    [​IMG]

    I kinda lean towards clean, but I'm sure since everyone feels so strongly, someone will make a mod to do it the opposite of whatever gets in the game.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  25. tankmayvin Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,863
    Those look pretty clean to me, considering they've been dipped in salt water for years.

    Compared to you...know vacuum with a several AU mean free path.

    Franklin looked pretty good after she was saved from sinking:

    [​IMG]
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  26. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,174
    I'm not personally versed in all aspects of the space environment, but one of my best friends is a senior engineer of Aerojet Rocketdyne, and they have hardware on every planet in the solar system, in addition to being a major contractor for the ISS. In a nutshell, near Earth orbit is not deep space. You can read Wikipedia or you can talk to someone that actually knows this shit.

    Maybe your stuff only lasts a couple hundred hours. Mine has lasted over 2000 hrs and is actually supposed to look like its lasted for years. I build commercial vessels designed to work. My crew's time is better spent mining ore than polishing brass. Anyone caught polishing anything gets fired. Our job is not to impress people with how well our equipment looks. Our job is to impress people with how well we get things done. Your arguments always tend to lean toward the military way of things. SE is not a wargame. It's a space sandbox with guns. We are not constrained to produce battleships nor are we to presume that we have the resources a military fleet would have at its disposal. If one wants to build a buffed and polished military space fleet that's all full of itself, one should use modded blocks. Keen's blocks are one size fits all.

    I will bow to your WWII combat experience. I'm sure I read somewhere how the Germans and Japanese marveled at how nice our ships looked.
    You do know that when that ship was brand new it had scratches and dents?

    I served three years in the Army as an aircraft structural repairer. I worked exclusively on CH-47 Chinook helicopters. I never saw combat. The aircraft, however, always had scratches and dents. It was my job to make them go away. No one, including the NCOIC, the First Sergeant, the Company Commander, Brigade Commander, Division Commander, or the Army Chief of Staff, expected perfection. You didn't notice them unless you were standing right next to them.

    Much like SE spacecraft.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  27. PLPM Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    842

    In a combat intensive scenario where patchwork goes first then painting, and complete parts of the ship are patched (Using the comparison with a maritime ship) and unpainted... well, that´s exactly what´d happen in SE if painting took time to apply, entire sections that were patched would be devoid of paint if the patching was made with haste to return the ship to combat ASAP.

    There´s not much point of scratched textures, neither in glass nor steel, it doesn´t have much point.
    --- Automerge ---
    Oh boy...
    The amount of dis-service need for one´s equipment to have it, THAT... well, scratched, is not a small amount. You´d need to be REALLY rough with it, and it wouldn´t be something generalized like it would be if those textures are implemented.

    Bumps and scratches aren´t uncommon on ships, but not SPACE ships, because you don´t want a banged up spacecraft... it´s kind of dangerous with depressurisation n´shit. Maybe with small ship blocks, where their applications are usually rough, but not with a ship of several hundred tons, where you usually live and well... you want it mantained properly.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  28. tankmayvin Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,863
    Seriously? The friend of a friend argument? Does proximity to him osmotically make you know what you're talking about? Hardly.

    You're 100% right, the LEO environment is very different than the interplanetary environment. LEO is utterly loaded with crap and has significant atmosphere compared to interplanetary space.

    I will 100% take wiki over random dude on the internet blowing smoke out of his butthole.

    I don't care about your crew or head cannon. What I do care about is the average lifetime of a ship in survival. It's sure as fucking shit not thousands of hours, because that's the total play time of the more hard core members of the player base.

    It's nice that YOUR ships are ancient derelicts. The reality is that most ships in SE are things that have just been welded up and that will probably get cut up for parts or lost on mission within tens of hours.

    The worn paint on the new texture is visible from meters away because it's literally paint worn off. This includes on things like cargo containers and interior ship doors that have never seen more rough treatment than being fondled by gloved hands.

    SE spacecraft encompasses everything from shitbuckets to top of the line battle cruisers. We all know you have a bad case of one-true-way ism with regards to your fantasy ships on a fantasy server no one will actually want to play on.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
  29. BlackUmbrellas Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,818
    Besides, you know, looking more visually inteeresting and conveyingg a particular aesthetic tone to the game-world.

    But nah I'm sure you'd be happy with featureless grey cubes.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  30. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,174
    The very definition of Wikipedia. Random dudes blowing smoke. Friend of a friend wasn't an argument. I ask him questions and he tells me what his experience has been. Sure, actual people put stuff in Wikipedia. I don't know them personally. Bruce and I have been friends for decades. He is an actual Space Engineer. If I have space engineer questions I go to him, not wikipedia. Or you.

    We could go on. You probably would. However, the decision was made long ago. Space Engineers "look" is Worn. Lotsa "not worn" mods out there. There is no "real world" argument that makes any difference. It's an artistic, aesthetic choice made for purposes of game identity, and if it's a deal-breaker for anyone that's probably just unfortunate for them, not Keen.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.