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Ship Yard/Repair Bays

Discussion in 'Suggestions and Feedback' started by Nivek1993, Nov 12, 2013.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Kamoba Senior Engineer

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    http://forums.keenswh.com/post/manufacturing-a-fleet-6622292

    Go figure.

    K
    Thanks
    Bai.
     
  2. Kamoba Senior Engineer

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    Erm, I'm not sure you've bought the right game...

    All of those are way too Sci-Fi...
     
  3. Evis Apprentice Engineer

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    What kind of engineer can you consider yourself if you don't automate common tasks? Even modern heavy equipment is built with computer assistance, and some robotically. In 2077, we would have mastered robotics in space.

    Systems for taking your resources and automating construction and production is a natural fit.

    Such systems should have an obvious cost, but they are most certainly essential.
     
  4. Evis Apprentice Engineer

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    There is nothing sci-fi about robotics or "AI" behavior. It exists today, and in 2077, engineers would be putting it to swift and heavy use.

    The way this game is positioned, it is almost a certainty that he'll be able to build much of what he described. You're an engineer. Engineering tools are a certainty. Mods are a certainty. From there, nearly anything is possible.

    You need to lay off the vitriol when responding to people's suggestions. If you're young, then you need to understand your trite replies are both counter-productive, and ugly.

    --

    I really like item #2

    Ships/components can report on their damage state via radio transmitter, which prompts the damage control computer to dispatch the appropriate repair bot to the location.
     
  5. Kamoba Senior Engineer

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    Repair bots and drones, are possible and I have said are a good idea, he suggested ships capable of self repair, this to me sounds too Sci-Fi, self repair to an extent...
    He was also talking about the potential for 'jumps' this is another thing I feel is too Sci-Fi

    Perhaps I am being a bit too aggressive in my posts, thanks for pointing this out.

    As for my age, I wouldn't say I'm young :p
     
  6. Evis Apprentice Engineer

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    :)

    All good. I agree, jumps seem excessive at this time.
     
  7. Kamoba Senior Engineer

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    NASA will announce the invention next week knowing my luck
     
  8. SaturaxCZ Senior Engineer

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    Its true, space jumps will not be posible around that time, but if you want solve it normal way it will take a lot of time for example when you dont have resources move from place and your ship is one big metal scrap.

    1. leave ship and go for resources. ( mine asteroids around you with luck )
    2. leave ship and go for another ship able to drag your destroyed one.
    3. leave ship and go for repair ship.

    I hate part about Leaving ship alone in dark space and go. Some diferent ideas:

    1. colect destroyed ship parts and melt then into resources
    2. deconstruct useles ship parts to get resouces
    3. abadone parts of ship ( like salamander tail )

    It dasnt mean it will not take half day repair it and it can still move like snail. That was only reason why using space jump can be more comfortable in some modes. ( true its looks like unrealistic technologi for next 100 years )
     
  9. lanc4268 Trainee Engineer

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    I get the desire avoid your ship being used for scrap by someone else. At the same time it seems like an interesting element to the game. Coming across a derelict vessel in deep space and doing some hasty salvage before the owner returns could make things fun. It would also encourage group play. Always nice to have someone watching your ship for you while your off to gather repair resources.
     
  10. Nivek1993 Trainee Engineer

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    Have they said whether or not symmetry will be available in survival? from what I understand it will only be in creative.
     
  11. Kamoba Senior Engineer

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    And you think a giant shipyard big enough to house a large ship will be?...
     
  12. Nivek1993 Trainee Engineer

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    I think it would be a far more viable and realistic option for survival than building in symmetry...
     
  13. Kamoba Senior Engineer

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    Leggy forums, if I double post sorry:

    Okay so symmetry may not be in survival, fine that great, I can dig that...
    But allowing for a shipyard which automatically produces ships large or small to me is removing a vitally fundamental element of gameplay, one which is both enjoyable and enhances the need to interact in MP with other players beyond just ramming and shooting each other.

    Especially if there voice chat.
     
  14. DocTanner Junior Engineer

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    What is that fundemental element of gameplay? For me, it's tedious and repetitive "grinding" for more of the same ship. Am I missing something?

    (For the record: I'm totally happy with a shipyard not including any pre-loaded designs. You should have to design and built all prototypes yourself. Otherwise, what's the point? I just want a structure to build production models.)
     
  15. Kamoba Senior Engineer

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    How can you say it's repetitive if you haven't done it yet?
    Also it's not just a matter of holding the mouse button, there is a clear inventory limit to our back packs and we'll need X amount of X components for X stage of creation...
    Depending on the block being created...
    Please see this blog for Mareks take on things..
    http://blog.marekrosa.org/2013/09/answers-to-your-questions-1_25.html?m=1
     
  16. DocTanner Junior Engineer

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    There are four identical fighters sitting in my station hangar. The first was super fun. The other three were repetitive and boring. So I've done it.

    When there is also a resource limit, that won't make it less tedious, just more time consuming.
     
  17. Malkiot Trainee Engineer

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    Have you ever played Minecraft with RedPower2, Buildcraft, and Industrialcraft? Long story short you were able to build enormously complex machines which could, if designed properly, take over many tasks a player usually had to do. The more common applications were sorting systems and ressource refineries. I built auto-factories to help me deal with my larger projects, as well as computer networks etc.

    One of those factories would take two dedicated players playing for a week to finish. The factory would then generate the ressources needed to finish an even bigger project, which even with ressource grinding now removed still took a month to finish.

    As long as you can't just drop a factory module down and have to think about how each step of the building process will work out, and it takes a week or more to build and gather the ressources I would actually welcome the ability to automate the production of ships to remove the tedium of repetitive tasks.

    As an example for an awesome way for this to work you only have to look as far as 3D printers. Having what is basically a upscaled 3D-printer making ships would just be awesome. You would still need to build a factory capable of crafting every component needed by the 3D-Printer, as well as the infrastructure to supply the raw materials.
     
  18. DocTanner Junior Engineer

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    ^^ This. Pretty much exactly what I'm talking about.
     
  19. Kamoba Senior Engineer

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    I must be the only one with the opposite opinion to this...
    Still not sold on it and don't think I ever will be, but since I'm vastly out numbered in my not liking this idea I'll just stop repeating myself.

    Clearly I'll be the only one who will enjoy having a chat with others while building crafts..

    Enjoy.
     
  20. AngriestSCV Trainee Engineer

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    I want to engineer.
    I want to engineer huge mining ships that eat through an asteroid in seconds.
    I want to engineer fast and maneuverable cargo delivery ships that get cargo from one point to another through hostile space before the enemy knows I'm there.
    I want to engineer light interceptors to kill the heavier fighters that may attack my more important assets.
    I want to engineer heavy fighters to take out another factions assets.
    I want to engineer mobile base with just enough speed and firepower to provide a forward base in unclaimed areas.
    I want to engineer carriers to bring more of my factions fighters to bear on a target in less time.
    I want to engineer massive battleships to lay siege to the enemy and smite their battleships,
    but most of all I do not want to rebuild them over and over again when the optimally engineered ship for any job is not very good at some others.

    My cargo delivery ship is not a capital ship. If I'm forced to fight one in the delivery ship I should lose it and the enemy should gain all the resources from it. They should be able to take my containers, take my design, and take my resources. I am fine with this. What I do not like is the having to rebuild a ship that I have lost when I don't intend on using it in the near future. If I have an immediate use for my cargo transport ship and I didn't build another before, well bring out the hand tools, but If I had the foresight to put the tedious work of building, even just hull building, in the hands of a machine and respawn in my station near my cargo delivery ship builder and put the finishing touches on it by welding up the final components ( let's hope this is a short list ) who has lost?

    The enemy has gained knowledge of how my ship can be bested. I have lost a potentially expensive ship. I have lost the time it takes to complete the mission which I still likely have need for, and I have lost the entire cargo of my ship which is now in the hands of the enemy. I've lost a lot, but I should not have to go through a time intensive procedure to recreate my ship because I was caught in a bad situation and/or screwed up. If the ship was not good enough for the job it is intended to fill then I'll happily refit the ship or drive my brand new ship into a grinder to get the resources back and start a new design, but why should I have to rebuild it in a tedious fashion, even from a blueprint, especially if I lost the ship due to pilot error, an ambush, or just plain old having the wrong ship for the job? I feel that I shouldn't.

    Let us take a look at what we think multiplayer will look like.
    Mining takes place on a different asteroid every time and as they get further from base we need more logistical structures and ships. Not tedious.
    PvP ship battles take place both near and far from defenses against unpredictable players using custom ships in almost all cases. Not tedious.
    The experience of attacking a rival's station depends entirely on the ships I'm using and the station I'm attacking. Not tedious.
    Engineering ships to accomplish different goals that you can not fill adequately with your current fleet. Not tedious.
    Rebuilding a ship I've already designed. This is the same every time and as long as I have the resources nothing interesting can happen until I am done. Quite tedious.

    My personal suggestion is that these builders can build every part of a ship except for the cockpit and landing gear. Without these components you will not likely have a useful ship and they are highly likely to be limited in quantity on any ship. These builders will not be able to start another ship until after you have removed the nearly finished one and they will build at something like 10% of the speed of someone welding the ship by hand. This will encourage me to wait until I have a small fleet to maintain to invest in a builder, but allow me to ramp up production for sell or use if it becomes desirable. This keeps us doing things that change every time, even if only by a little.
     
  21. Nivek1993 Trainee Engineer

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    this changes nothing cause you would still have to have all of those things supplied to a shipyard to make it...
     
  22. Kamoba Senior Engineer

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    Like I said... I'm done with this, you all know very well my opinion, I'm not going to repeat myself like a broken record, so I'll agree to disagree.
     
  23. Master Trainee Engineer

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    didnt read every page on thread, but maybe what about having it where you can enter the shipyard/repair bay, and stay orentated with the ship you are working on. That would ( at least for me,) make thing alot easier to build.
     
  24. Ubiqanon Trainee Engineer

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    Good afternoon, forum.

    It seems that everyone is imagining this game as though they will have massive fleets at their command. To me this seems a bit silly. Given the current existing issues with memory, I will be very surprised if they get past server limitations of around 15-20 players or so. And the more 'automated' things that you have - repair bots, automated repair facilitates, automated mining, etc... the greater the memory strain, which will ultimately mean fewer players on a server. There are some severe limitations that this game will need to overcome in order for people to experience anything like automated repairs or multi ship manufacturing facilities. The name of this game is 'Space Engineer', not 'Space Emperor'. Its not a 4xE at a microbuild level. It seems that people expect that of this game, but I think they cannot help but be disappointed.

    In minecraft, when a creeper blows up your house, you fix it. There is no villager that comes around and rebuilds everything to your original specs. That's part of the beauty of it.

    End of Line.
     
  25. Bartsches Trainee Engineer

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    Let's not talk about memory issues. First they're rapidly getting better and second stations working calculations could be handled by servers which may have a bit more power than your average pc.

    I'd argue that MC is a completely different game. And repitition is one of the most boring things i ever expirienced in it.

    This game however is named space ENGINEERS with a big emphasis on the second word. A engineer designs blueprints for a factory or mechanic to build (hopefully) a few thousand times. The engineer however designs his blueprint (hopefully again) only once.
    Also it is not a matter of simply copy & paste stuff as I'd still need the ressources to build (and fuel) the ship again and need even more ressources to build a factory in the first place. I think it should be obvious that a factory should not be feasable to be build by a single new player withhin his first week(s) of continuos playing. It'd serve as nice end game or clan content.

    To talk about the actual factories:
    I'd like small ship factories to be includable on stations and large ships. This could give a nice addition to hangar ships and a reason to build a more complex structure than just a few engines with loads of flat surfaces.
    Let's make big ship factories for space stations only either by locking them or by making them too big to reasonable include them into any working ship.
    The cost of a factory could lead to "corporations" of players who only togheter have enough ressources to build (and plan) one. As large portions of players do not have access to them due to said cost (either by not being able to affort or by deciding that it's not worth the money) it could become a objekt which could be chartared by other players. It could also trigger raids on it in hope to either capture the factory itself or whatever richies that are stored around it. This could lead to mercenaries for both sides and would basicly kickstart a economy. I doubt that the same thing can be done with muscle workers as they're too unreliable / untrustworthy.
     
  26. Kamoba Senior Engineer

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    I'm still not sold...

    But I wonder one thing that I want your opinions on... If it'll take the repetitive edge off the topic and add some refreshing change...

    How do you all picture this grand 'shipyard' working?

    Obviously it has to be able to accommodate for the very different sizes and styles of builds, how do you all imagine it?
     
  27. Azi Dahaka Apprentice Engineer

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    Engineers are not mechanics. Engineers do not perform manual labor. Engineers design the vessel, then have workers create it. If those workers happen to be robotic... I don't see a problem with that. These repair/construction bays would be large, fragile, power-intensive, and expensive. You would still have to get the materials for it, but you wouldn't be dragged into hours of manual labor.
    I also like the idea of super-carriers slowly manufacturing small ships. The carrier would have to be titanic, though.
     
  28. Bartsches Trainee Engineer

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    Personally I'd love to see it to be build out of (VERY expensive, maybe one would need a workshop or something to build them) rails (in each dimension) on whom a robot a robot drives back and forth to add layer after layer. Much like a 3D printer or the robots currently working on car assembly lines. This might just remain a dream though. What I believe for a factory to be absolutely imperative though is that the size of ships it can build is limited by the size of the factory. This could be rail lenght if my example is used, it could be the size of a factory room... The bigger the factory the bigger the buildable ships and this way it would scale by the power of 3 meaning the biggest ships would only be buildable by the biggest corporations.

    I'd like a factory to be pretty expensive not only in building but also in upkeep. So it could require lots of energy which at some point in development will require fuel to be produced if I'm not mistaken. Depending on what is implemented it could also need other stuff like constant flow of a coolant. It would of course need building materials - maybe with some loss - whom it could get from conveiors. (It could also be drawn as pretty fragile requiering a even bigger defensive structure as well as active defending.)

    On the same account I'd like a partially automated trade post or conveyor ventiles as well as the ability to trade blueprints to allow players to offer the services of said factory with some reliability against fraud. I'm generally for many types of required workshops if one wants to build something really big / everything. This would make teamwork more atractive and lead to big space stations build by many players with lots of capabilities against smaller and specialized ones from loners or smaller groups of players.

    EDIT: @Azi Dahaka: I was picturing factories as slow, pretty large even for small ship sizes plus much supporting structures (like power supplies...) and very adept at exploding. So if a carrier wants to have factories it would make sense to have more than one for the sheer time it'd need to build a new craft. Given that a fragile and highly expensive structure screams for much armor protection I'd become a very big ship even without anything else. Given that you have a carrier you'll probably also want a few landing docks and including averything we don't know of yet but we will need to operate a ship I'd become gigantic.
    Maybe a factory ship would be more feasable as a (big) support craft for larger fleets rather than being a capable combat ship itself.
     
  29. corinmcnerd Apprentice Engineer

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    it is a very good point you came up with there... as for the repair bay i would be voteing for it would be enough for one or more long armes to reach the edges of a ship to repair the damge. as i was against the shipyard from the get go i have no idea since it would be either a mechanic need to enlarge the yard or retract it ti fit the ships.

    as you i have the no idea if anybody going for the yards realy thiught the8r wish through to the end and what the impact for the game would be as in game dinamic and the game iteraction of the play with each other.
     
  30. Bartsches Trainee Engineer

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    Yes I have. If you read my two last posts carefully you 'll find that I thought about both the later interactions with the factory as well as the impact of the factory to the enviroment.
    It's probably more of a direction decision. Do you want this to be space WORKER, where you have to build everything and spent the majority of time doing this or do you want it to be space ENGINEERS, where you design stuff and then think on how you can bring it into existence with the least amount of trouble.
     
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