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Ships losing control at high speeds

Discussion in 'General' started by Potter, Aug 17, 2017.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Potter Apprentice Engineer

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    I wanted to ask around a but before I made a bug report about this. Has anyone else had their ships start changing direction uncontrollably at high speed? We use the unlimited speed mod on our server and I used to be able to get ships up to around 500m/s before the sim speed starting dropping. Now around 200m/s my fighter just goes bonkers. It's almost as if I'm fighting it for control, as the ship tries to change direction without any input from me.

    I've tried reloading the world, turning gyros off and on, taking out the remote control block and cutting the ship out of the world and repasting it.

    Despite some Googling I havent come across anyone else getting this bug. I am at a loss and wondering if anyone else has experience this?
     
  2. SpecFrigateBLK3 Senior Engineer

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    1,133
    Any time you start going over 100 or so mps, things start getting wonky. That's why Keen put the speed cap in. This is why I avoid playing with a speed mod.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. Malware Master Engineer

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    There's little to no point making a bug report involving a mod - Keen is under no obligation to fix something that's officially not supported ;)

    Like Spec says, the speed limit is there for a reason, it's not an arbitrary choice. That said, there seems to be a relatively new issue going on. FWIW I believe Keen already knows about it.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. Levits Senior Engineer

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    2,122
    Ensure that you have no attached landing gear, no pistons or rotors, and if you do... make sure that they are locked. If they are locked and you have nothing else but that one solid grid moving... ... there is nothing that can be done.

    If the grid moves/wobbles on it's own while going faster than the default speed, then there is a problem with the mod. There is nothing wrong with the game until you experience the same problem at the games default speed of 100m/s.
     
  5. Potter Apprentice Engineer

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    496
    For reference, when I said it usually went bad around 500m/s, we were flying a large grid similar in size to the red ship through a super high procedural density world with view distance up to 30,000. The density was set in the server configuration manually to 3.0. Regular high density is 0.35. The fighter I mentioned above could do 1200m/s and not see any issues at all in a world with regular high density and view distance set to 15,000.

    I'm not asking who doesn't use speed mods and for what reason, and I understand that there's no promise of the game handling ship speeds of above 100m/s. All I was asking is if anyone else who uses speed mods has seen this issue. My only concern here is that something is broken that used to function beyond what was originally promised, and I was trying to figure out if it was just me seeing this issue.

    Taking a look at the mod page (which is what I should have done earlier, I know I know, I don't know why doing that slipped my mind) and also from what Malware has mentioned, I can see I'm not alone.

    I wanted to make a bug report because if something that calculates movement now has significantly more constraints on it, it could be an issue later. But you're right, it would be taken as an issue with a mod and would just waste everyone's time.
     
  6. NoThanks Apprentice Engineer

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  7. Potter Apprentice Engineer

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    496
  8. NoThanks Apprentice Engineer

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    You're welcome... However if you'd read that whole thread you probably wouldn't be thanking me for not telling you about why I don't use speed mods lol.
     
  9. Potter Apprentice Engineer

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    Hahah I don't care which side you're on; I just wanted to know if I was alone in the issue.
     
  10. May Rears Apprentice Engineer

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    There is your problem. Anything moving above 100 m/s gets the increasing attention of our Supreme Lord Klang, even in SP though of course He prefers to manifest in multi player.
     
  11. CuNi Trainee Engineer

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    The problem is, it worked fine before.
    I have to say, I havent played for a while, but yesterday, after I turned on SE, it was such a different game than it was in March this year. I honestly wish I could roll back to that version.

    Everything over 100m/s starts to spin, when going into my ship, the outside world turns into the planet from Riddick - Pitch Black, weird reflections on my windows that look pixelated and dont even update at all...

    Like, I wish I could turn them off, at least the visual issues. I have no issue with going back to the 100m/s cap, but whats with all those other things!? I can't even play this game anymore without getting annoyed after mere minutes.
     
  12. Devon_v Senior Engineer

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    1,602
    I agree, speeds up to 500m/s used to be quite stable in SP on a decent rig. Something changed.

    Edit: Multithreaded physics possibly.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  13. CuNi Trainee Engineer

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    Still, whats with the bad "Bright/Dark" simulation? If I enter the Cockpit of my ship, on the brightest day, the outside looks like Pitch Black planet, even though the window is literally 1 block away. That's not how eyes percieve bright and dark, at all.
    The glass has super weird reflections of the world..

    I just wish I could turn those effects OFF somehow, but you cant.. I don't see a reason why I cant turn this off.
     
  14. Potter Apprentice Engineer

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    496
    They did. Like I said above, we went beyond that by quite a bit and still maintained 1.0 sim speed, so clearly something is wrong.
     
  15. Syncaidius Junior Engineer

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    I've been having the same issue without any speed mods. I clamped a huge (unpowered) station wreck to the side of our ship with a landing gear, then proceeded to point the ship back to base and it started spinning uncontrollably. I tried everything you've mentioned with the same result.

    Even went as far as using the admin tools to "stop" it, but it just regains its uncontrollable spin until I reload the world, then its fine until I try rotating the ship again.
     
  16. Potter Apprentice Engineer

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    496
    Does it stop after you get out of the cockpit? We've noticed that our high speed PMWs don't spin uncontrollably and we think that the only reason that they don't spin is because they aren't under player control.
     
  17. Devon_v Senior Engineer

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    Reading through a bunch of reports and some comments by Draygo it seems the issue is indeed the multithreaded physics. As VRAGE and Havok no longer process in synch (necessary for multithreading and not a bug itself), once the speed of an object gets high enough the data that Havok calculates and passes to VRAGE is slightly out of date by the time VRAGE applies it to the ship. The faster you go, the more out of date the data is. Apparently Havok is using absolute coordinates rather than just referring to the grid, so the force updates are applied off center of mass, and thus Clang is summoned.
     
    • Informative Informative x 3
  18. Potter Apprentice Engineer

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    That's pretty clever reasoning. Sounds possible to me. That's what it feels like, being off center of mass. Even when you kick the dampeners back on when flying around 200m/s, my ship acts like it is being pushed off course by the dampeners instead of just coming to a smooth stop.
     
  19. Devon_v Senior Engineer

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    1,602
    This frequently gets mistaken for backwards eye adaptation, but that's not what's happening. The game doesn't actually calculate ambient lighting as it would take too long to work out, so it just looks at the current evironment you're in and guesses at a proper value based on if you are inside or out, in sunlight or not, and it's usually decent enough, but edge cases mess it up.
     
  20. Spets Master Engineer

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    looks like somebody already found out what causes the problem

     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  21. R-TEAM Junior Engineer

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    This is know for last one week or more (if you follow the discuss ..) ..... ;)
    Connectors and doors cause the issue ...
    Many user would be surprised that not a small amount of modded blocks that move/animate, in any way, are modded doors from programm perpective .. so it is not easy to avoid this problem with mods ...
     
  22. Spets Master Engineer

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    well, no... TL ; DR :p
     
  23. D3Seeker Trainee Engineer

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    Yeah. I brought it up recently. Pretty much a ~hard~ speed limit in havok, though it seems yet again to clearly inflict itself like a slow moving plague on us unsuspecting players at will, considering speed mods have been around in mass use for a while..........

    Funnily enough, when bone stock it still wonks out when the game itself breaks it's own speed limit. 101 km/s and it you'd swear a piston has attacked....... on a piston-less ship

    Large ships however are just fine for me. Seriously hoping they either ditch havok down the line or "unfix" whatever they changed
     
  24. Potter Apprentice Engineer

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    496
    What I don't get is why it is suddenly over the Havok speed limit when it's been functioning well for a long time before? Perhaps a multithreading limitation. Damn.

    I hate to be pessimistic, but does this mean that it will not be fixed?
     
  25. D3Seeker Trainee Engineer

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    Probably another pipe dream considering how things are going
     
  26. Potter Apprentice Engineer

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    Considering how many times I've seen the tester dev say there's nothing they can do about it, I'm sadly inclined to agree.
     
  27. Devon_v Senior Engineer

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    Yes, it's because previously Havok and VRAGE were working on the same data set and handing it off. VRAGE did a gamestate update, passed relevant data to Havok, then Havok did a physics update, then passed the data to VRAGE. This was accurate, and also bound to the maximum processing capacity of a single core. Now they run side by side, tossing data to each other as they go. This allows both of them to use the full capacity of their own cores, but it also means that not every piece of data gets processed on the exact tick (one sixtieth of a second) that it would have in the old method. They clearly built some wiggle room into the code to account for this, but the faster you go, the smaller the available margin of error before it Clangs. That's not to say that it cannot be fixed, but it's outside of the speed limit they set precisely because things like this could happen, so it is not, strictly speaking, a bug at all but a known limitation of the system.

    It all boils down to this stuff is hard. SE is so much more complex than it gets credit for.
     
  28. D3Seeker Trainee Engineer

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    No one's downplaying that fact whatsoever. Fact is, it was working for many, speed mods exist, and I'm more than willing to bet my left kidney it still works for many.

    I just pray that when SE 2 comes out in an eon that Havok is tossed and they figure out a way to have a much higher speed limit because, technical limitation aside, 100m/s is painfully slow, PERIOD
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  29. ViroMan Senior Engineer

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    1,123
    damn it... connectors are causing that shit? What, now I have to do some damn merge blocks or something if I want to transfer stuff back and forth? I suppose I could just use the power transfer mod and then put in an ejector(unless this crap happens to ejectors too). Ejecting 100k of ore would take a long time though. :(
     
  30. CaD Apprentice Engineer

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    113
    I find it's a bit to do with the mass cos my big ships those over 50mil have no problem. Also if your on or near a planet it's worse. Some of my big ships take off for orbit with no problem when they leave the gravity zone there doing in excess of 20,000 ms, even the re-entry mod you know those mods that give you lift and burn up, they dont get a look in. All I get is a warning about temperature then its over. A guy jumped in my game a week back so I took him to mars in my battle ship in about 45 seconds he was totaly amazed and there was just a slight pulsing of the grafix. Im telling ya its looks so cool seing a planet slide into view like that and thats with a univers of around 30 planets a black hole (gotta have one of those) a couple gas giants and absolutly loads of ships stations, trading startions and bases too. So you can see my 9000 hours is well spent.....
     
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