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Siege engines

Discussion in 'General' started by BAPBAP, Jan 13, 2015.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Wintersend Senior Engineer

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    for that I'd prefer to have them sloping up to a central keep and have a rolling log trap to kill intruders and then have something else to either block or destroy the bridge, using fire in your own keep can get out of hand really quickly.
     
  2. Wintersend Senior Engineer

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    http://blog.marekrosa.org/2015/01/medieval-engineers_22.html

    Under "About Medieval Engineers" second paragraph

     
  3. Steelpanther Apprentice Engineer

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    That's why those bridges would be the only flammable stuff near by. Last I recall stone doesn't burn.
     
  4. Erik_3E Trainee Engineer

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    Alright I stand corrected, I know I heard the developer say something about going from the stone age to the Dark age/Iron age.
     
  5. Wintersend Senior Engineer

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    No problem, lots of people have gotten confused on that one. That's why I know exactly where they said it is. So don't worry, you are not the first and almost certainly will not be the last person confused by this.
     
  6. Geneticus Senior Engineer

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    Um, Just when do you think gunpowder was invented? If your answer is not the 9th century, it is wrong.
     
  7. Wintersend Senior Engineer

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    Yeah, but it didn't come into Europe until much later and this seems to have a distinctly European feel to it. Also, most firearms weren't around then and those that were would probably be more of a danger to you than to the person you're shooting at.

    Seriously, have you seen some early pistols, the recoil from the things would push almost straight back, just from looking at the things I can tell they stand a good chance of breaking your arm when fired.
     
  8. Steelpanther Apprentice Engineer

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    Invented and becoming useful are two different things.

    Remember, back before combustion engines, Gasoline was dumped in rivers for being completely useless byproduct of getting kerosene.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 21, 2015
  9. brazjol Trainee Engineer

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    The Ottomans were using cannons by the 15th century, they even used them to sack Constantinople in 1453. Cannons had been in use for some time already in Europe but that's pretty much when they became practical. Cannons are definitely in the right time frame.
     
  10. cyrv Trainee Engineer

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    I wonder if it is possible to build a slingatron. the mechanics behind it are a bit strange, compared to other medieval siege engines, but on the other hand it's pretty simple. I guess it depends on the possibility to build a spiral that is as accurate as possible.
    If it works it could have great potential, especially reloading is easy and could be done while operating, so auto-firing should be possible.
    The longer I think about this machine of medieval mass destruction, the less I can wait to finally build and test it.
     
  11. PeterHammerman Junior Engineer

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    Dont forget about early prototype of APC - Trojan horse ;)
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  12. War.Freak Trainee Engineer

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    So correct me if i'm wrong; but that's 50 years before our time frame ends strictly seeing (50 years because mentioned before there were no safe or practically reliable uses before 1453)
    50 years of our time frame is 1/20 th aka 5% of our time frame and because this is "within" our targret. Really after the 15th century gunpowder became a thing and was wildly used for a long time. so why, if only a tiny tiny bit of gunpowder-history is in our huge timeframe, is it considered that it is in the right time frame? when gunpowder had just became 'popular'.
    I don't remember medieval times were times of cannons and muskets.
    I say again, correct me if i'm wrong.

    *edit:* this is for Europe, as devs said it the game is set in a European kind-of style by default.
    *edit 2:* the above edit "as devs said it the game is set in a European kind-of style by default" is possibly wrong!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 21, 2015
  13. calxllum Apprentice Engineer

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    Technically they only said that the visual style is European, medieval because they had to pick some where for the visuals. But I would prefer if we keep the technology in the vanilla game to stuff you would expect to see in medieval times.

    Personally, I don't want cannons because that partially ruins the whole "engineer your own design" thing. What other design for a cannon can we come up with that won't blow itself up horribly?

    If we were to have gunpowder, I would prefer it to be in barrel form and highly volitile. Meaning, you muck up while moving that stuff then it'll explode.
     
  14. Mirones Trainee Engineer

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    how about an gigant catapult that throws stone towers at the enemy?
     
  15. Martinineter Senior Engineer

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    What about a gigant trebuchet that flings explosive barrels towards the enemy?
     
  16. Ravager Trainee Engineer

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    I'm seeing some arguments for blackpowder in here. I decided to go on the almighty Wikipedia to have a look and found that the earliest mention of a cannon in Europe was as early as 1248. Another source is "The Liber Ignium, or Book of Fires, attributed to Marcus Graecus, is a collection of incendiary recipes, including some gunpowder recipes. Partington dates the gunpowder recipes to approximately 1300" (<--- Pulled from Wikipedia)

    So while it may be a little rough around the edges and laborious to produce, it is well within the time frame set by the developers.

    The greatest use I can see come from this is maybe not cannons as they require exorbitant amounts of iron to produce, but incendiary catapult loads. They would probably not be very effective against a stone wall, but could quite possibly be useful against wood constructions. Maybe it could be combined with oil to produce some primitive 'napalm'?
     
  17. Geneticus Senior Engineer

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    Its unnecessary to use that combo for napalm. Greek Fire was developed almost 800 years prior to the ME time period.
     
  18. Geneticus Senior Engineer

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    That was Marek in the LSG interview. He was talking about how you would start with nothing, pick up a rock, smash a tree to make a stone axe, and work your way up to the Iron Age. Alot of this is probably in a state of flux because they are going to make a game that is fun. Just like Gravity Generators in SE are unrealistic they were needed in order to be able to walk around. My money is on a few things being out of period if for no reason other than they fill in a playability gap or Marek finds them to be "cool".
     
  19. Steelpanther Apprentice Engineer

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    And your own link tells us it isn't reasonable to have because it was a lost state secret.
     
  20. brazjol Trainee Engineer

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    Yes, but the devs did say 15th century, so even if it's at the end of the timeline it's still right on, especially considering cannons had been in use for almost 300 years already, but were rare and impractical. 15th century is when they really started becoming useful.

    I just think cannons could make for an interesting late game thing to do. They should be very difficult to make and transport. The advantage of a trebuchet is that it is built on site, but a cannon would have to be hauled from the foundry! Maybe instead of using a projector like in SE, you could instead craft molds from clay and cast a cannon (or bell or whatever) of your own design. That should be a difficult process, as well as producing the gunpowder, cannon balls, transportation etc.
     
  21. War.Freak Trainee Engineer

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    It still doesn't conclude if there are cannons and hand cannons used reliably.
    However, what you also mention is incendiary loads, on the top of my head they indeed exist (well within our time frame) near the end of the medieval period. my reference would be AoE where the final upgrade was incendiary catapults :p. but i support this: incendiary catapult-like loads.
     
  22. War.Freak Trainee Engineer

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    There is no way to discuss with this one...
     
  23. brazjol Trainee Engineer

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    If you don't understand that 1453 is part of the 15th century, I don't know what to tell you.
     
  24. War.Freak Trainee Engineer

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    "50 years before our time frame ends" <- referring to 1453, so untill 1500 (1503 to be exact, but i know its untill 1500 :p). So i think i do know.

    *Edit:* I sent you a private message with a detailed explination
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 21, 2015
  25. Martinineter Senior Engineer

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    Nope:

    ME is set between the 5<sup style="font-family: georgia, palatino; text-align: center; background-color: #f7f7f7;">th</sup> and 15<sup style="font-family: georgia, palatino; text-align: center; background-color: #f7f7f7;">th</sup> centuries but we still try to keep our games generic which means that we won’t say a specific year or place on Earth. On the other hand we needed to set an initial look for the game. So basically it looks like some kind of middle-age European style and setting. But we actually hope that people will be able to mod the game and make different settings/time periods. We are really looking forward to these because they will be super cool!

    It might look european, but this is because they need to show us something, not because it is set in europe....
     
  26. Wintersend Senior Engineer

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    Thank you for that, I didn't want to be the person to bring it up again.
     
  27. Martinineter Senior Engineer

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    The members of the sacred order of the pink flamingo shall support each other in battle and peace!
     
  28. War.Freak Trainee Engineer

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    it actually says "European style and setting". setting -> location, European location. but maybe they didn't meant this, so otherwise you're right :). I did another edit on that post =)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 21, 2015
  29. Martinineter Senior Engineer

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    I shall quote again:

    that we won’t say a specific year or place on Earth. On the other hand we needed to set an initial look for the game

    we won’t say a specific year or place

    we needed to set an initial look for the game

    Conclusion: they needed to set an initial look for the game, which ended up to be european (only because they needed an initial look, not because the game is set there, but because placeholder textures mainly look crap and they needed something appealing). The place and year remain fague, so the game can be as broad as it can be.
     
  30. waterlimon Senior Engineer

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    Dont get stuck on the exact time frame provided by devs, it was just a rough example to guide the design.

    It shouldnt be a big deal if we take something from later times if its just a single thing, as long as the general feel of the game stays in the 'optimal zone' overall.
    Especially if that thing DID exist in the timeframe in some form (How widely something occurs in the game DEFINITELY wont match how much it occurred in reality, for all features that will be added!)

    So its a bit pointless to be that exact on whether it existed or not and how widely it was used.

    The devs motto includes that reality is the best game designer - game design is the goal, reality is the means. What reality gives us is a more immersive and intuitive experience. Reality is irrelevant once the audience doesnt get those immersiveness or intuitiviness benefits anymore. At that point reality is no longer the best game designer, and you are free to go outside its constraints.

    I do not find cannons as a lategame (the 'iron age'-ish part of progression?) mechanic to be unintuitive, and I dont find them breaking the immersion. Therefore, whether theyre realistic or not should be dismissed as a factor affecting the decision. Focus on the OTHER effects (than the effect of their realism-factor) that cannons and similar have on gameplay. I think they would not have any issues, and would create more creative possibilities, as well as cooler gameplay since explosions and fast traveling heavy objects are awesome.
     
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