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Small atmospheric miner trouble!

Discussion in 'Survival' started by Farindark, Feb 18, 2016.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Harlequin Otterdog Trainee Engineer

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    58
    I built a four drill miner with the cockpit in the middle not long ago, I used large thrusters for it instead of smalls. I just wanted to build something with large small ship thrusters. Wouldn't be hard to retrofit it with blocks of small thrusters. Album here of both it's partial construction and first mining test. Doing the math replacing just the four large forward thrusters would result in 32 small thrusters to take up the same space. It also uses a single large cargo container in the middle. Hope it helps with your own designs.

    Edit: Mine is using one large reactor and four batteries for all those large thrusters. So I have no clue if a second large reactor would be needed if you where using smalls.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2016
  2. Farindark Apprentice Engineer

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    418
    Greetings

    I just posted this in another thread regarding planets so I am copy pasting it here in case anyone wants to come from there to call me stupid.



    "Harrekin said:
    “Why do people keep saying Atmospheric Thrusters need a buff?

    If anything theyre probably OP for the cheap build cost and relatively low power consumption."

    Greetings

    I won't argue with what you say regarding about the build cost and power consumption that's not what we are talking about. Go and build a small compact two drill miner in space that has your cockpit, oxygen generator and medium container and supporting features with an actual body to make it look nice (not just a minimalist frame to hold it together)....this is quite easy to do in space with minimal thrusters. Then go and do the same on a planet and you'll see what we are on about. Unless you do a minimalist frame its extremely hard to come up with a efficient aesthetically pleasing design without turning it into an oversized thruster porcupine unless you want to have a flying brick that when full won't leave the ground ..or at least ..not for long.

    If you want to argue with me or just shoot me please go here http://forums.keenswh.com/threads/small-atmospheric-miner-trouble.7380127/ so as to not derail this thread. Thank you. :woot:

    P.S. Keep in mind I am not saying it's impossible especially if you a very experienced builder who also likes to do all the math required to nut out a design as some might do but for the general and average player and especially a new player it isn't by any means easy on a planet. This is shown by the fact many have moved from planets back to space.

    P.P.S. Yes I am aware if you want to build a giant planet cracker then it's not a problem.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2016
  3. SpecFrigateBLK3 Senior Engineer

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    1,133
    I have come to the conclusion that large atmo thrusters are meant for stationkeeping when pointed downward, while small atmo serve best to alter altitude when used in conjunction with large atmo.
    In context of a compact miner, I'd advise a central large atmo pointed down, with small pipes over or around it as necessary for your connector setup. Additional small atmo lift can then be added as necessary for the desired performance.
     
  4. Vicizlat Apprentice Engineer

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    174
    The main thing with small and large thrusters is that one large equals about 7 small thrusters. So they take up less space and can fit more easily without sticking out of the ship body. But I still don't like the fact you need about 30 of them to keep a ship of that size flying. My biggest miner is almost the same weight as yours but it has 6 drills, 2 large and 2 medium cargo containers and 3 large reactors (batteries take up too much space and don't provide enough power, I've tried it :)). It has 32 small thrusters forward and down and 6-10 in the other directions and when full I have to be really, really careful how I fly, especially on descent. And it tends to drift sideways a lot. ;)

    I know I could have gone with just 4 or 5 large ones, like yours, but I like to be able to fit the whole ship inside the hole it's drills are making both with right and left clicking them.
     
  5. Saberwulfy Apprentice Engineer

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    292
    Large atmos thrusters are useless for any type of worker small ships, 1 LAT area = 15 SAT area, 1 LAT thrust = 5 SAT thrust, 1 LAT weight = 7,8 SAT weight, mining you need to be strong for carry all weight.
    I'm really disappointed with the balance, i think big things need to be more efficient in all aspects except resources.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2016
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. Veritas Apprentice Engineer

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    143
    Um, your math is a bit off.... last I checked volume is 3x1x1 for SAT and 3x3x4 for LAT, making 12 SAT per LAT volume, and you are forgetting the important factor of power consumption. LAT has same consumption as 3 SAT, with more thrust.

    What thruster setup you use depends on the size of your miner (different people have different definitions of small) and its capacity. My friend designed a very nice, small mining ship which burrows deep into the ground using only LATs, with significant storage space. We tend to prefer power efficiency over ultracompact designs, but people willing to sacrifice consumption for compactness could make his design even smaller. I'll try and post it when I get home.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2016
  7. Harlequin Otterdog Trainee Engineer

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    58
    While mine won't quite fit in the hole it makes with primary drill fire, it does with the secondary. I've also since both changed it's design some and upgraded it to run eight drills upon me starting a new world. Making it shorter in length and using less batteries with two large reactors. Batteries seem to help offset any overload events by providing a cushion. So I'm going to have some on it. I've found myself preferring the large thrusters for it over the small ones. Part of this is that it seems too many smalls start lagging me, that and larges seem more forgiving on power usage. I've used it to carve out the mountain side base I'm using to construct my ground to orbit shuttle. I'm also in the process of building a large ship version of the miner for mining ice for the shuttle.
     
  8. SpecFrigateBLK3 Senior Engineer

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    1,133
    Hereby borrowing or stealing that idea for backup bases.
    On topic, a small grid large reactor and four batteries produce 32 and a bit MW (forget what the bit is) which is just over a large grid small reactor's max output.
     
  9. Vicizlat Apprentice Engineer

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    174
    Don't mind me, I am just going to correct a few inaccuracies: ;)
    Actually his math is spot on and you are a bit mistaken - a LAT is 3x3x5. So that makes exactly 15 SATs per LAT volume.

    A small grid Large Reactor outputs 14,75MW and a large grid Small Reactor outputs 15MW. Making the first one just under the second one. If you add 4 batteries (4,32MW each) you get 32,03MW which is a bit over 2 large grid Small Reactors.
    Although I am still unsure where you are going with this...???
     
  10. Veritas Apprentice Engineer

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    143
    Well shit, my bad. it's only 3x3x4 on large grids.... :eek: Ignore that first part. Also, here is the all battery mole miner my friend designed (please ignore keybind stupidity):[​IMG]
     
  11. SpecFrigateBLK3 Senior Engineer

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    1,133
    I think I meant to say two large grid smalls. I forget where I was going with that.
     
  12. Sagi Apprentice Engineer

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    265
    [​IMG]
    I always Start with a miner Wich drives towards the ores but when i start mining i do it whilst flying.
    Having to drive to the location saves you a lot of energy and if you encouter to rough terrain to drive you can also fly over it, if u tip over you can fly yourself back on your feet.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  13. SpecFrigateBLK3 Senior Engineer

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    1,133
    It's so beautiful. Please tell me it's on the workshop, and please link!
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  14. Sagi Apprentice Engineer

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    265
    Im afraid it's not on the workshop, made it myself and i always make a new one on every map but it's mostly the same design.
    But sometimes i'l save stuff in blueprint, il go check it out if i still have this one and see if it's not to much trouble placing it in the workshop and link it.
    Never placed anything before in the workshop tough.
    --- Automerge ---
    Did not save the one from the screenshot but i was in a good mood so i made you another one.
    This one also has oxygen support (since keen won't allow us to open the bloody window) and is slightly more powerfull and a longer battery capacity.

    Make sure to turn OFF the wheels when you go on full flying mode at higher speeds!

    Here you go:

    http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=689411214



    [​IMG]
     
  15. SpecFrigateBLK3 Senior Engineer

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    1,133
    Thanks a bunch!
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. Silvoan Trainee Engineer

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    26
    Okay, I'll gladly post my miner I use in my survival games. Have a gander:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Easily built from scrapping an atmospheric lander, this is my go-to first tier atmospheric miner.
     
  17. Sagi Apprentice Engineer

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    265
    Why are there 3 drills on the right and only 2 on the left?
     
  18. Lorem Ipsum Trainee Engineer

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    1
    Started playing on a server 2 months ago.
    build some mining ships, crashed them, build new and better ones repeatedly.

    Here is my Lama 10, (crashed 1-9 :eek:ops:)




    Empty mass is 90k
    Max mass near ice is 400k
    108 small atmosheric thrusters, 18 in every direction
    2 large reactors
    4 drills
    1 large cargo


    The server im playing on uses some mods like enhanced cockpit, energie shield and some more which i used.
    Replaced the mod blocks and made it full vanilla compatible

    edit: workshop link http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=690937467
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2016
  19. Sagi Apprentice Engineer

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    265
    Great! Especially the grabbing of the large ore detector very smart!
     
  20. Silvoan Trainee Engineer

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    26
    There's two drills on the sides and one drill in the center, in a pentagram configuration.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  21. Harlequin Otterdog Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    58
    The angle of the second picture makes it look lopsided-ish, it does look good.

    Here's my minimal miner from my immersive start save. Immersive Start lander doesn't come with a lot of motors, also I'd been having a lot more trouble with cyberdogs then usual in this save. A lot juggling of power, resources, and ammo supply while doing so. Of course the whole double spawn bug they just fixed today might have been part of that. It's based off the tiny remote controlled 'drones' I'd worked on a while back. I do need to move the drill lower as it's little too high at the moment so I can't see over it. This was designed as a bootstrap miner, not a long use one. It uses three small ship batteries salvaged and merged blocked from the immersive lander.

    [​IMG]
     
  22. Silvoan Trainee Engineer

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    26
    Man that adds a new definition to minimalistic
     
  23. Harlequin Otterdog Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    58
    To be honest everyone has their own definition of minimalistic. I'm thankful that drills have their own cargo storage. Only reason it has solar panels is because of how spotty my base power is in that save at the moment. I did realize that design would work well with a small grid cargo truck providing the storage. Got to make sure I have ammo first, or any truck I build gets eaten by dogs.
     
  24. gi_ty Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    119
    I prefer to drive for my early mining as atmospheric flying gets expensive quickly vs mass. I was playing survival on Mars world so the thin atmosphere may have been causing me some problems. This one you can use like a backhoe it also locks to the ground when you drop the suspension with the landing gears. I have had a lot of success digging out near surface deposits. I think the max downward reach is about 30 meters. Its also great for opening up access to large deposits and works well in conjunction with a small flyer as the flyer can unload into it frequently.[​IMG]

    Blueprint can be found here: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=575957831 I think its quite pretty as well :)
     
    • Like Like x 2
  25. Sagi Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    265
    I experimented with drills on rotors for a while but i had many many problems with it. the biggest one is like you mention, you can't go very deep
     
  26. TheTinyMan Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    61
    Inspired by @Sagi and @gi_ty, I've been actively working on a small mining rover on an Earthlike planet. I've never managed to have much success with rovers in general, but when experimenting with this the other day, I think I got it figured out. Apparently in the past, I didn't know that you could brake with SPACE, and was always using the cockpit handbrake, which was...a little strong, and lent itself to flipping. And my wheels were always under-strength for the kinds of hills my test area consists of.

    I've got a neat setup - two side-by-side 1x4 banks of drills. Each bank is attached to a rotor that can angle up and down, with conveyor sorters pulling all of the material out of the drills and into the center-of-mass-placed large cargo containers.

    I have two rows of 4 5x5 wheel suspensions beneath the cab of the rover, which includes the cargo containers, some programmable blocks and timers (currently used to keep the rotor pairs in sync, with extra computational blocks to spare), my cockpit, a couple of air vents and conveyors, and a connector, and a couple of gyroscopes, and otherwise armor around all of that. The armor is heavy armor up until and including the minimum height above the wheels that I can have without risking the wheels hitting that armor, and it sinks downward to fill some of the space between the wheels. The armor is light armor above that. The drills and their rotors extend out in front of the cab just enough for everything to rotate correctly.

    On the back, I have another set of rotors, that control two landing gears, that can rotate downward to grab the ground. I haven't entirely decided why I want to do this but it sounded like fun. :p I also have a sorter and connector pointing down at the ground behind the vehicle, spitting out stone, although I usually have the connector turned off so there aren't pebbled in unexpected places.

    So my problem is that when I'm trying to drill, even if I'm trying to drill horizontally, my drill truck quickly starts pointing downward, and through the shape dug into the ground, my rover very quickly starts doing a drill-stand. It's like a head-stand, but with rotors! Even if I catch it very early, I find that my wheels aren't able to pull me out the hole that I've started to dig - even with my drills pointing upward while right-click drilling. I haven't made it far enough to attempt to left-click drill a useful ore yet. Has anyone seen anything like this?

    I'll try to get pictures and a Workshop link up soonish.
     
  27. gi_ty Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    119
    If you can fit landing gear along the bottom you can raise and lower the suspension of the wheels, and then lock your vehicle to the ground during operation. that way the miner will always remain on drive able ground. It requires frequent re positioning but is the only way I have found around this problem.
     
  28. TheTinyMan Trainee Engineer

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    61
    So if I clamp down, then drill, then stop drilling, then unclamp, the ground beneath my wheels will be driveable, but if I don't clamp down, and drill, then that same drill will not be driveable? That's a little confusing, any idea what causes that?
     
  29. Sagi Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    265
    I tried things like this to. The harsh reality is that at this point it is almost impossible to drill with wheels alone. I even tried with a duel piston landgear setup to pull myself out of the hole but it was very unstable and a lot of effort to achieve little.
    If this ever have to work there is gonna be a lot of work on how wheels work by the devs. so i would say don't burden yourself with that just yet, if u mine now, do it whilst flying...
     
  30. Harlequin Otterdog Trainee Engineer

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    58
    Honestly we need a super long piston "Drill Rig" type block for rovers. I've kicked the idea around in my head for a fairly bulky design. Equal to say, the vanilla small ship mining drill in dimensions for small ships, but with super long reach. I'm not even sure how to mod something like that, much less if there is a limit to how long you can make a piston reach. Time to break out blender and some of the mod tutorials.
     
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