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State of Development, Open Development in Early Access, Changes to Release System, Xbox One

Discussion in 'Change Log' started by Drui, Mar 13, 2018.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Malware Master Engineer

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    9,032
    The length is just a maximum size to the script itself, the code. That has nothing to do with the script's performance. The allowed instruction count is there to prevent stack overflows that kill the game, it's not there and is not good enough to deal with performance. It's a tool to help the scripter. It's the scripter's job to optimize their scripts.

    You can't determine their "max possible demand" without writing a system to scan through every single possible route the script can run. That's complicated enough. Now, considering that the complexity of the script will also potentially change depending on what grid it's running on, how that grid is built and so forth... It's a massive undertaking and simply not worth the effort. Add to that the priority Keen has historically put to the programmable block and you're completely out of luck.

    Pressure management is the minimum requirement I would have to survival gameplay in a space game. This is why I say it'll be a game ender for me if it stays out. It's also an engineering thing, to make sure the oxygen is properly piped... creates a reason to engineer airlock systems (no, I don't just slap two sliding doors against each other), same reason I only use hydrogen thrusters (except on planets). I can't understand how it's not used. There's plenty of people who do. The reason some people choose to switch it off is the performance impact it has had.

    I wonder, are you aware that the oxygen/pressure system was something that was strongly requested by the community? We campaigned for a long time before Keen caved and gave it to us. That should say something.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018
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  2. Petr Beranek Developer Staff

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    I just FTFY, cause you forgot them. :D Most people don't listen. And if they listen, then most don't care. :D
    --- Automerge ---
    These folks? I am sure you don't have to use plural when addressing me. And using names is probably better. :D Also can't advice the use of generalization. Making assumptions just because one person don't care about look of things and thinks that things without purpose are waste.... is just plain wrong. :D

    To those who don't know the context it might sound, as that opinion is shared by all devs, not just me. Probably, as it was mentioned earlier, Aragath is probably nice example of person who probably wouldn't agree with me and cares about those stuff. Which would make your sentence either lie, or claim without having necessary information to make it.
    --- Automerge ---

    Yeah, that is the only reason it is in game. I also completely understand why it has not been changed much. It is really performance heavy, there is no simple way to solve it and it brings no gameplay. From gameplay point of view, there is no reason to open your visor. If there was reason to open your visor, then I agree it is good feature that has it's purpose. Purpose of "I don't have to carry a bottle." is pretty weak to me. And I won't be saying anything more about pressurization as I don't want anyone to think that my opinions represent opinions of everyone in keen. :D
     
  3. Roxette Senior Engineer

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    One reason could be for a better view of the world, but at the moment that doesn't even work, apparently all the greasy smears impeding vision are on the astronauts contact lenses and not on the visor :p
     
  4. Petr Beranek Developer Staff

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    Those smudges are directly on lens of the camera inside astronaut's artificial eyes. When first engineer was created, one of creators by mistake touched the lens with bare hand. Then as engineer was templated, smudges got templated too. That's why all astronauts have same smudges. :D
     
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  5. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

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    374
    I wouldn't. A PB would have the PCU, not the script, and it would be based on the every frame method as it's the worst case in this example.

    First, thank you for explaining this to me.

    I understand that programming is complex with a large variety of possibilities, but the list is not endless. There has to be some sort of limit on what PB's can demand otherwise they are basically Virtual Machines. VMWare has options to limit the OS' demand on the PC.

    60 fps, 100000 PCU = max 100000 blocks/server, Complexity O^4 (lets throw time in there too why not), and Int32 value limits = (I have no idea what the true formula is) but lets say:

    (60*100000*2,147,483,647*2)^4 = 4.41x10^65 <-- Convert this, or whatever the actual smart math is :p, to a PB PCU

    I would be surprised if there wasn't some sort of Benchmarking script for C# on some repository somewhere. If not I'm omw to the patent office...

    I've never experienced a PB using a script demanding enough that it killed the SIM on my PC. I only see problems in MP when there are many PBs running which leads me to believe that the conversion would become something feasible like say 2000 PCU. I would rather have this option, than 'nope, experimental'.

    Pressurization and gravity are the only two things that require engineering in SE. This is why we wanted it. There is no structural integrity, no fluid dynamics, no friction wear/heat, not even torque. Before planets there wouldn't even have been gravity. Which leaves you with what? The cold VACUUM of space. Meh you have a helmet. Problem solved. Why use Space or Engineers in the name then? Just call it Void Bloxxors or something cool and l33t for the gradeschool kids to snicker at.

    Hey did you guys hear? The next season of The Expanse the characters will all be wearing helmets all the time, cool eh?

    https://forum.keenswh.com/threads/n...lenge-crashed-red-ship-broken-helmet.7393021/

    Hows that for gameplay?
     
  6. Malware Master Engineer

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    Well, the worst-case sample of the PB would be infinite... No, I'm not joking and I'm not exaggerating. One line of code is all I need.

    No, just practically endless. Which for the sakes of the poor people who has to make the solution means the same.

    Benchmarking systems exist, yeah. Of course they do. But benchmarking itself adds not insignificant performance pressure, especially when you need to find the worst-case path. They can't be used for runtime benchmarking like this.

    There's no difference from the running of a programmable block script and running any other portion of the game. Scripts are compiled and run exactly the same way as the rest of the game, with the same compiler, the only difference being load-time compiling. So no, there really aren't any limits on what PBs can demand because .NET doesn't provide for such mechanisms - because .NET isn't designed for scripting but applications. It's just, it was the absolutely simplest and most performant thing Keen could use for their scripting since the compiler is available on every .NET platform, and it's guaranteed to run as fast as the rest of the game. To limit the PB you'd have to limit the entire game.

    This is true, and ordinarily I would agree but... performance isn't the main concern. See my first response in this post. Why this can't feasibly be fixed is rooted in my second response in this post. I agree, even the most "dangerous", deliberately attacking scripts are at most annoying nuisances to remove from your single player game, but in a multiplayer server? I'd never run an open multiplayer server without the scripting role restriction on, you can be sure of that.

    Given that the programmable block is practically my creation at this point (as in how it runs its scripts) and I'm probably one of it's greater advocates, there should be some significance to the fact that I actually agree with the move to experimental. Grudgingly, regretfully, but I agree.

    Because Keen just added the bare minimum. There's been plenty of suggestions of how to make pressurization a gameplay advantage over the years. That's no argument imo.
     
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  7. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

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    374
    Ok, I think I understand now. Thanks for explaining it. So, how do you respond to the "muh, multithreading fixes everything" crowd?
     
  8. Malware Master Engineer

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    9,032
    It's not a silver bullet. There's so many things in a game that must be synchronous. In addition to that Multithreading is about the most difficult thing a developer can do, because it's so easy to make mistakes and so difficult to debug. Finally SE was never supposed to be this big, the very engine is not designed to be multithreaded and changing that is no easy task. It'll probably be cheaper to make a new game.

    All that said, they're already doing their best threading all they can.
     
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  9. zachusaman Trainee Engineer

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    45
    multithreading issues? thats so 2017, wheres the RGB support for space engineers?
     
  10. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

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    Well, the fact of the matter is that honesty is way better PR than hiding limitations behind a "mode". We had a big blow-up right here in this thread over the perception of truth. Your honesty has probably done more good for KSH than PCUs ever will :tu:

    OK, like when you wrote this?:
    Cause that's not what I did. Generalizations are the stuff of forum threads.

    Hey, I know how it is. You have a job to do and Marek probably docks your pay if you have an opinion on company time. I get it ;). I just find it... disconcerting... that there are people working on the game that find the essential things unnecessary. I know we all don't agree on what's essential, but:
    IIRC, in Miner Wars you couldn't even leave your ship! Remember the big hoopla when Keen made it possible to remove your helmet (and we saw Treebeard for the first time)? Wanna talk about gameplay? There's a critical scene in 2001:A Space Odyssey about helmets, and not having one when you need one.

    I have said since the first day I made a post: it's the absence of gravity and air that makes building in space a challenge. This is what Space Engineers brings to the table like no one else. It's one thing to create machines that operate in that environment. The real trick is to be able to be out there with the machines. Not having air in the beginning is why the game kept getting compared to Minecraft. The demand for air was high, but not unanimous. Within 24 hours of its introduction there was a mod to delete it. Today no one turns off air, just that pesky pressurization thing. Air makes the game more "lifelike" because the consequences keep you on your toes, and most of us like that. Pressurization is more than just an exercise in creating airtight spaces. Leaving a door open now has consequences. For those players that are inclined to bring combat into their play, depressurization becomes a tactic. It makes the game more than just putting blocks together.

    If I start talking about gravity I'll never stop. Let's just say that the absence of gravity can lead to some really creative builds, in terms of how players will function within them.

    Then I guess I'm the other one ;). The PB makes the standard game truly remarkable. It's not that you can download a script and run it. You can write your own. If you are reading this on a pc, it's hard to imagine not understanding the implications of that. The things you can make and do without ever resorting to a mod are incalculable. Mods and scripts are OP, as in I don't know if you get this combination in any other game. It's definitely the combination that let's so many people bring their other games, tv shows, books and movies into Space Engineers. It's dangerous to performance because it's a standard block, and you can't limit it.

    These PCU limits and different modes might help but, honestly you're trying to hold back water with a net. It's also good to provide comprehensive documentation so that people can understand what things affect performance and how/why they do, and that the game will perform poorly if overtaxed. If we have good information we might just make more performance friendly builds, and limits would be less necessary.

    By "we" I don't mean everyone, or anyone in particular. The people that won't resort to using documentation to learn and will just build what they want and get upset when it affects performance know who they are ;)
     
  11. Petr Beranek Developer Staff

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    Essential? The thing about essentials is that if we aren't talking about real stuff (like water, oxygen :D nutrients,... stuff that is essential for organisms to survive, light is essential for photosynthesis to be running and things like that) the thing is, that... each person have different set of things that are basic must have for them. You can ask hundred people to create complete detailed list of things what he thinks is essential for the game. In the end you have 100 list each different, yes, those lists will probably some common stuff in there (by common i mean stuff that appears in more than one list) but only very few things will be on every list.

    For me, decorations are unnecessary things. If I want to create ship, that looks pretty and has everything I want in there? I won't be opening SE, I will use blender (as I am no longer a student, I ran out of student licence for Maya T_T, that is probably the best thing about being student :D ), or if I feel really creative and want project for months to work on? I will build model in real world (but I am more into creation from wire, and more into fantasy stuff than sci-fi, so blender would win).

    In SE I build things with purpose. Interior of ship?
    Medbay for respawn, small cargo with tools/bottles, O2/H2 generator, cockpit, cryochamber, turret for unwanted people, maybe another cargo with sorter attached where I put stuff I don't need (sorter to drain it out, so it don't get full), sometimes backup reactor for case I run out of energy and need to power at least basic systems. And doors. Maybe I forgot something (I am not in game, so I can't check it), but this is sufficient interior. O2/H2 are both stored in ince in generator and with every wisit I refill my bottles there. I can respawn, I have tools there, I can log off there. There is access to all systems on grids. If I wanted it for MP playing, I put there necessary amount of flight seats. There is no need for tables and chairs and coffee-makers. No carpets, windows or paintings on the walls. Instead of table I would rather put there one more cargo for more stuff or one more turret to make it a bit more safe.

    Air pressure? I can live inside of the suit without any problem. Depressurization becames a tactics? Having pressure inside my ship is more of a disadvantage to me. One hole and all air is gone, no pressure, no loss of air.
    --- Automerge ---
    Yeah, maybe one day there will be VRAGE 3.0 and different game with different architecture that will suit all the things we will want to implement. :D Sometimes it is really nice to dream. Lets see what future will bring.
     
  12. Malware Master Engineer

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    9,032
    @Petr Beranek Man I'm glad Aragath works at Keen as a counterpoint to you... He really gets what makes a good game. You sound like the person who was wondering why the gravity generator had a reverse setting if it can't be used on planets to reverse gravity anyway.

    The lack of imagination is disturbing :p

    You actually have to have a smidgeon of talent to make a full ship model in Blender or other 3d modelling software... and you can't actually play with that ship afterwards. In SE you don't necessarily need to have a significant modelling talent to be able to make a decent build - because the difficult parts, the details, have been made for you. That argument is ridiculous.


    Sorry, I'm being rude, aren't I. I'm just too tired to figure out how to get the message across with any other kind of wording...
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018
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  13. FoolishOwl Apprentice Engineer

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    Because, to my imagination at least, the core of Space Engineers is designing stations and ships, and the critical thing about stations and ships is that they support and protect human life. And the presence or absence of air represents whether they do support and protect human life, and I take it to represent the presence or absence of all the other things necessary for human life.

    Without pressurization, it feels like this. Although, Strong Bad seems to be fine with it.
     
  14. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

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    2,390
    @Malware you said it, and with far fewer words than I would have. We are beyond what's essential to build a working ship. We are now in the realm of what's the point if it's lifeless. This is why the "survival/gameplay" update is so greatly anticipated.
     
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  15. Petr Beranek Developer Staff

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    206
    Then you have way different playstyle than me. Designing stations and ships? For me one of the best times in SE I had in long time was during one survival mp test. Over time spawning 3 landers and a respawn ship, grinding it down, gathering of basic resources and planning assault on base made by Aragath's group. The only downside was, that I they were working permanently for few days and got ahead of me when I was at work. And searching for small space ship with 3 km view radius is just... not worth the time it would take to find them. :-D It would be really nice to have a radar :-D To scan things in like, 200km radius. That would be really nice and useful block. It is too easy to be unseen in space now. No effective way to hunt other ships (unless they have regular antenna/beacon).
     
  16. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

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    374
    Yeah, see I don't think that would be very useful. Gameplay is all about building things, and radar isn't building. No. Should only be about more blocks to build more things just because. In fact, the best part of mp is knowing you're building your useless piles of blocks in peace while everyone else can't find you.
     
  17. KissSh0t Master Engineer

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    3,371
    Ohh man I would love radar soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much.
     
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  18. Petr Beranek Developer Staff

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    There is something about it, you are right. It would change a lot of things and people would be angry. Better keep it as it is. Right? ;)
    --- Automerge ---
    Yeah, you are probably right, so I am gonna completely avoid posts about features/blocks/content and anything related to it. So he can discuss it with you in peace. No one here wants to make a bad game, right? :)
     
  19. Malware Master Engineer

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    9,032
    @Petr Beranek I was rude yesterday and I'm genuinely sorry for that. However my base message stands, rudeness retracted. I don't understand how anyone can not see the value of being able to create a living world. It's not just about creating the ship you're using, but the world around you as well, especially for scenarios. Games like Mass Effect would be quite boring if all of the unnecessary parts were removed, wouldn't you agree? Sure, a vastly different type of game, not even "apples and oranges" are sufficient to describe the difference... but props and decorations are important for immersion, and for some of us immersion is paramount, perhaps even more in sandbox games where we can craft our own worlds than other games.
     
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  20. Roxette Senior Engineer

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    1,065
    The problem with fixing a 'simple bug' in a complex working system:

    [​IMG]
     
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  21. Malware Master Engineer

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    @Roxette Didn't know whether to choose "agree" or "funny"... :D
     
  22. FoolishOwl Apprentice Engineer

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    SE's quite different things to different people. I came to the conclusion a while ago that the best thing for the SE devs to do would be to pick one facet of SE and focus on it, even if it wasn't my favorite facet. I'm not much on multiplayer combat with SE, but plenty of people are; if that's what the devs find most interesting, then good, focus on that.

    That said, I've been surprised that Petr's surprised that people want decorative blocks, and so forth. Decorating a living space is a big part of the appeal of a lot of sandbox and semi-sandbox games. Take Subnautica, for instance. And I thought the introduction of player skins meant they were about to add more such cosmetic features, and in particular had assembled a team of artists to create them.
     
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  23. Petr Beranek Developer Staff

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    You mean those same artists that were in team before the skins and after the skins? Who made blocks that are used now, new particles in visual tweak update and many other things?
     
  24. FoolishOwl Apprentice Engineer

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    Basically, yes. Just trying to explain what my expectations were.
     
  25. KissSh0t Master Engineer

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    Speaking of artists, is Natiq Aghayev still at Keen? and if so.... tell him to update his ArtStation account with anything relating to SE...

     
  26. Petr Beranek Developer Staff

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    Yes, he is still here.
     
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  27. Roxette Senior Engineer

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    This seems like an interesting development...

     
  28. Burstar Apprentice Engineer

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    Doesn't technically say what year...
     
  29. Roxette Senior Engineer

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    Its from Discord, from yesterday.
     
  30. Petr Beranek Developer Staff

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    Yet still says nothing about the year :-D
    --- Automerge ---
    Maybe it is scheduled for 2030 :D
     
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