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State of Development, Open Development in Early Access, Changes to Release System, Xbox One

Discussion in 'Change Log' started by Drui, Mar 13, 2018.

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  1. Balmung Senior Engineer

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    Sandbox = Sand + Tools + make what you want with it.

    Means a Sandbox game gives users stuff to play with it like Lego. So it lays in the hand of the players what they do with it.

    Problem of Sandbox games is: not every player is Sandbox compatible. A Sandbox game needs player they can make there own stuff, so they didn't need someone that say "now build a Sandcastle".

    It needs creative players, not only for building stuff, also for playing with that builded stuff. And there is often the problem, many users build something without thinking about it what they want to do with this stuff at the end. At the end you have a very big space battleship and than? nothing. But that is not the problem of the Sandbox game, it is a player problem only. This game is named "Space Enigneers" and not "Space Battle Enigneers" or so for a good reason. It is a Toolbox for players with creativity and Mod/Scripting Support is a Sandbox part too.
     
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  2. JD.Horx Senior Engineer

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    1,032
    Nice to see you still around here @Balmung
    ;) Didn’t you want to look for other games to play like SE?
    When I play other games I find myself always comparing them to SE. Can’t help it. It is so hard to start again to learn building in Planet Nomads or Empyrion.
     
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  3. DigitalStone Apprentice Engineer

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    273
    Why all the talk about genre-definition?
    The game is what it is, the experience and what it will be (Space Engineers 2.x included).
    Invent your own definition. who cares right?... No? :?
     
  4. Balmung Senior Engineer

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    1,947
    Yes, the game is what it will be, but enough Players see in Space Engineers a game what it not is. But you can do much in other directions witch the Mod/Script Support.

    SE is the only Space Sandbox Game that I play. I like too much other sort of games too, so I didn't need more than SE and for me SE is still the best matching Space Sandbox "Sim" like game that I want to play. ;)

    SE made many things right that I would miss in other Games too. Also that great Mod Support, an important thing for me.
     
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  5. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    3,368
    Here's the thing. Elder Scrolls is my son's thing. Years ago we spent a lot of money on a computer for him so that he could a) play Skyrim with a bunch of mods (something like 400) and b) record, stream and edit videos of said Skyrim gameplay. I bought him a definitive collection of all the Elder Scrolls pc content including all the available DLC. I remember during all that there was an Elder Scrolls console game that he had. All I know is that although he enjoyed the console games/versions/whatever, he focused on the pc versions, mostly because of the mods. I personally do not know any of the Elder Scrolls stories (but I have all the survival guides at my fingertips) or follow the series. I just know for sure there is pc Elder Scrolls stuff and there is console Elder Scrolls stuff and there is a big difference.

    Halo is what I know other than Space Engineers. I defer to your wisdom regarding Elder Scrolls ;)
     
  6. Malware Master Engineer

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    9,861
    Other than some adjustments to quality for performance, I can't agree with that. There have been a grand total of 6 elder scrolls games (7 if one counts online - which I personally don't)
    Elder Scrolls: Arena (MS-DOS, 1994)
    Elder Scrolls: Daggerfall (MS-DOS, 1996)
    Elder Scrolls: Battlespire and Redguard (MS-DOS, 1997,1998 - but arguably a form of self-contained expansion to Daggerfall?)
    Elder Scrolls: Morrowind (Windows and XBox, 2002)
    Elder Scrolls: Oblivion (Windows, XBox and PS, 2007)
    Elder Scrolls: Skyrim (Everywhere. It's a bloody virus. Started out on Windows, XBox 360 and PS3 though, 2011)

    As you can see, the entire series have been pretty much PC centric until the later years when ports were made to consoles. The ports were the full games.

    <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Elder_Scrolls>

    [Nerd mode deactivated]
     
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  7. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    Yes. But the tools aren't built up to any decent level. They are either undocumented, poorly documented, or completely wrong. They haven't been refined anywhere near the point that setting up a custom sandbox world is viable. It's a sandbox, but a lot of the features needed for the sandbox are still boulders rather than fine sand.
     
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  8. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    1,960
    Sometimes “sandbox” refers to a kitty litter box. I’m just saying...
     
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  9. Tenzo Apprentice Engineer

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    285
    If Space Engineers had an editor on par with the Skyrim Creation Kit, the general user would be able to get a lot more mileage out of the game.

    As opposed to just a few, who have the technical knowledge to fiddle with the game's graphical assets on a granular level. (The common user does not.)

    Without an editor made for the common user, it's very hard to get the mileage out of the game that the developers intend.

    That Creation Kit is so powerful, that I can see why it was enough for people to tag sandbox on the game itself. Because you can do anything with the editor. And it's kind of easy once you get the hang of it (the editor).

    Bethesda didn't have to release editors for Morrowind and Skyrim (not sure if Oblivion had one or if they used the Morrowind one), but they did and look at how well that panned out for the titles. You can get so much mileage out of them once you're bored with the content.

    Heck, it even caused the scandal of Valve (Steam) and Bethesda (?) attempting to make pay-gate mods, specifically to cash in on Skyrim.

    You could get a chicken with its own backpack for one dollar. It was cute while it lasted.

    They were talked down from that stance once the community got the torches and the pitchforks out, but they still didn't give up on the idea and iterated on it in a smaller scale in the form of Skyrim Special Edition. (You can buy survival mode for it in that version, if I am not mistaken, and other things like that.)
     
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  10. DanTX Trainee Engineer

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    6
    Can they revisit xbox controller support for the pc version?
     
  11. KissSh0t Master Engineer

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    I hope planets get optimized properly so the game doesn't stutter all the time when on a planet... most noticeable when flying just above a planet / within planet "atmosphere"...
     
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  12. doncdxx Apprentice Engineer

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    438

    I had plenty of experience with the creation kit before modding SE and I had experience with Oblivion's creation tool before that, but less so than Skyrims. I've now made several gigs worth of mods for SE and I can say with no doubt that modding SE is profoundly easier and quicker than the Skyrim Creation Kit. What the creation kit does do well is give you GUI which the current generation of computer users are practiced at comprehending and navigating. Modding with notepad doesn't feel as intuitive, but it's just as powerful and crashes far less. GUI's are definitely a comfort zone but if it doesn't actually speed up creation, it's just in the way.

    Perhaps the creation kit is useful with a large mod like a major rebalance or massive overhaul, since it could help organize all the parts for you, but it would likely take significantly longer to make. For example, if I wanted to make a new island for Skyrim that you could take a boat to and it was only about the size of Markarth, it would take a few days to make, maybe a few hours if there was nothing interesting on it. To make a new planet for SE no more than 10 hours if it was detailed and used plenty of new voxel materials. Also importing the heightmap for Skyrim and giving it an overworld map would require 3rd party tools since that part of the construction kit is broken. Modding ME is essentially the same as SE and if there was a race to see 2 experienced modders add something like mithril swords, minable mithril ore locations, and all the crafting info to Skyrim and ME, I'd expect the ME modder to be done in hours compared to several days with the Skyrim modder.

    Getting into modding is easy. I suggest a good tutorial and a little bit of practice and you'll be making mods far better than you could in Skyrim.
    Also adding graphics to SE is definitely easier thanks to Harag's Blender tool. It's not exactly idiot proof, but it's close.
    With gimp, blender, and notepad, I made all my mods.

    Another good tool for getting more mileage out of SE is SE Toolbox. It's literally too awesome for words.
     
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  13. boromir Apprentice Engineer

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    223
    I almost always play on a server in my house. And sometimes I connect over WiFi to the server. In those cases the stuttering is rather random and about 30% of the time - playing alone. When I play directly on the server box, no stuttering and offers a very crisp experience. When someone else in the house joins in, the stuttering almost always occurs. Sometimes a restart of the client reduces or makes the problem worse but not much either way.

    Marek said they were going to optimize the multiplayer experience so I expect that'll be gone.
     
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  14. KissSh0t Master Engineer

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    3,747
    I do not play multiplayer, I do not play on a server... the issue is not networking.
     
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  15. beelzerob Apprentice Engineer

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    429
    Ya, same here, if by "stuttering" you mean the game completely freezing for up to several seconds... frequently. Sometimes while traveling, sometimes while grinding down the last part of a block, sometimes when opening the terminal screen. Interesting, I've noticed that the particle effects (smoke for example) do not freeze during this pause. Turning graphics way way down sseemed to make it a LITTLE better. Maybe. Also single player, no server.
     
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  16. Echillion Senior Engineer

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    1,334
    Bare in mind although our very good modders are updating and improving their mods since 13th march the base game hasn't been so whether your playing with mods or vanilla bugs will creep in whether they be existing bugs or new ones or ones that where fixed once upon a time at this time the game is at its longest period without a update/hotfix or patch for nearly 2 months so expect things to get a little horrible and hairy until they either issue a hotfix or more likely get around to releasing the next major update with fixes and hope they dont screw the game till the next major update after that?. I have had several game and PC crashes in the last week but will persevere with the game till its finally released and then render my judgement.

    I'm currently having a blast testing out scripts both for turrets and automining (Rdavs) I plan on using the Corruption PVE and/or the Reavers mods by Meridius IX for some NPC pew pew as the vanilla NPC's are either broken or not hostile enough.
     
  17. KissSh0t Master Engineer

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    3,747
    I don't use mods x-D, the game just stutters.. it's quite frustrating.

    I tried making a ship that automatically hovers above the ground using sensors and timer blocks but it exploded when I welded a block.. not even joking, welded block > explosion.

    Alpha® ™
     
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  18. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

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    1,960
    I suspect your welding punched a hole in the space-time continuum.
     
  19. Hyomoto Apprentice Engineer

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    244
    I've been critical of the game, but also those who have been critical of the game. I'd like to think I have some understanding that, if nothing else, it's obviously challenging to make a game at all, let alone an experimental game at this scope. On the other side of the coin, however, I still have to judge Space Engineers by what it is, not just the intent behind making it. And what it is, when you walk back and ask: what do you do in Space Engineers? Well, beyond a robust building simulation: not much. Maybe that's enough, I've never launched a rocket in Factorio and I've still enjoyed it. And I've spent just as many hours enjoying the Zen-like quality of putting something together in the quiet emptiness of space. I've always been a 'survival' player, I like the slow tedium and pointlessness of it all. I built a space station with a complicated airlock because I wanted a space station with a complicated airlock. I respect that quality and enjoy it.

    That said, have the developers actually ever played SE? I mean, literally sat down and played it? Because I often think we're playing very, very different games. The problems in Space Engineers come from the "is that it" moments. The building is superlative, literally nothing else really matches that (except maybe the planets, you guys really do impress there). But take a step back: multiplayer doesn't work well enough to encourage the game's building in a chaotic PVP, and the game's PVE elements are weak if I'm being generous so co-op is a bit of a wash. I don't mean to tarnish your ambition, but from the player's perspective ambition is only as good as execution. You guys gave us the ability to walk around our ships, but it's very much at our own risk. It's a death sentence to be out your chair when the ship is moving. Is being hard to fix supposed to cushion the frustration of another pointless death? I don't want to get into a list of specific gripes because none of that is explicitly what I'm talking about: what I'm getting at is that when you say, "Hey this is challenging, and we're forging new ground." As a player it's like, neat. But the game is still what it is. All the challenges and forging new ground don't change what the final product is. You say 100s of systems, but I'm like: uh, oxygen, electricity, crafting, sorting and building.

    I really don't mean to be quite so harsh, I've played hundreds of hours at this point: you guys did something right and made something engaging. I feel like SE was worth every dollar, it was a good buy. But if I were giving it a score, it's a 6/10 and it feels like there are too many missed opportunities to not be just a little disappointed with what the 'finished' version looks like it will be. So when you see criticism from people who maybe feel the way I do, know I honestly do try to see it from your perspective, and I just hope you can also see it from what the player experiences.
     
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  20. DigitalStone Apprentice Engineer

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    273
    They probably preferred the programmatic logical systems under the hood.
    And i get what they meant frankly. SE is an insane game to build.

    As for the rest. It's already a 'given' that you can play the game as you see fit.
    You can essentially build a super weird 3-dimensional station in space with gravity-traps to go all RPG on each other in multiple teams... if that's your game.
    It's (almost) already possible to do all of the things that you might think of playing the game.
    Like, a game version of experiencing a self-made story in your mind. It's all about playability, and you create the content for it.
     
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  21. lyle sonders Apprentice Engineer

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    342
    just hope someday they expand the physics of the game so that you can build a true capital ship. I have several worlds in limbo because I have reached the limits of a grids physics which, although you can continue to build the grid, it becomes unusable because you simply pass through walls and floors.
     
  22. Malware Master Engineer

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    9,861
    @lyle sonders They can't. That's a limit of Havok, the physics engine, something Keen has no control over.
     
  23. Tenzo Apprentice Engineer

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    285
    Thing is, Miner Wars is kind of like Space Engineers 1.0

    And Medieval Engineers is kind of like Space Engineers 3.0

    It feels like all the work they've done on Space Engineers has enabled other titles to work better/more fluidly (ME), but it hasn't actually improved the gameplay dynamic for Space Engineers itself. It is still more or less the same game since the Space Engineers/Kerbal Space Program craze.

    They added planets, but... It was originally a game about space... I mean it's called Space Engineers. So we have essentially giant mineable rocks in space we can play on, but we don't actually have things like aerodynamics for them. But we get to play on a giant field with grass and trees. When a game has a feature like that added, it's generally a clue that the game has spent too long in early access. (The feature is so 'left field' to anything a game called "Space Engineers" would have had planned for it. Or should have done.)

    We also lost the old asteroid maps that generated some pretty fun exploration with a nice sense of scale that presented that awesomeness of space. Because of planets.

    So I'm not really a fan of planets because I don't feel they added enough for the huge amount of effort they took to add. (And they made me lose one of my favorite features.) (Kind of an understatement, if you think about how much time and effort they spent on planets when they could have spent that time on iterating game systems we already had, or could have had. Who knows how the game would have looked now if not for that ambitious foray.)

    Again, this is where I have to criticize Marek. He may be a great programmer but I don't think he is a good project leader. He doesn't seem to fit into that role very well, if anything, you guys need someone at Keen to manage him. A good project leader gets things done on time, ensures the team doesn't tackle more than they can chew, and puts out a development plan that is reasonable for the team to achieve. I don't think Marek does any of these things particularly well (more like the opposite), but especially, I don't think he sets reasonable goals for the team to complete before they can move on to other phases of the game.

    Which brings me back to planets... Again, so left field, they were actually a community suggestion, if I'm not mistaken. I was not always a frequent forum user but that is what I have gathered from reading comments from other posters. They listened to the community and added planets. A good leader does not allow themselves, and their team, to fall by the wayside. To side-track themselves with an immense, time and effort consuming "expedition", instead of focusing the team on the game's original premise. It's one thing to listen to the community and add things the community wants... But another to add the Deathstar to a game about I dunno, hop-scotch.

    What is hop-scotch you ask? It's a game where you draw boxes with chalk and then throw stones in the squares and skip into them on one leg. What does that have to do with Space Engineers? I don't know!

    What do planets have to do with a game about engineering ships and stations that allow you to survive and thrive in space? I don't know!

    I find it rather sad, that the disclaimer for planets is 'but they have no water'. I mean, who cares if they have water or not? I mean really, if planets HAD water, what would that add to actual gameplay? Zippo, nothing! It would have been very impressive, but as a coding feat. Sort of like planets. You can't actually design planes that take advantage of planetary atmosphere. You couldn't actually design a jet ski and start surfing the waves if planets had water. It's impressive, but doesn't do anything for gameplay. (So why have them?)

    It's not Waterworld (TM) Engineers. It's Space Engineers. Space. Space. Space. Waterworld is also legendary in terms of box-office disappointment but astronomical costs in regards to technical achievement. But sadly, without a stellar plot, character development, or script... If Waterworld were a game....one could say gameplay elements were lacking. But hey, they have water! And Space Engineers has planets.

    You could have added something like customizable skyboxes that showed some awesome planet eye candy like EVE Online does... But going full out to add full planets that act no different than building on an asteroid in space, minus the inconveniences of gravity and the presence of oxygen is taking the game in a different direction. (Again, a decision that falls squarely on the project director.)

    If players wanted to play around with vehicles, you could have just added bigger asteroids, then extended that into asteroid belts for example. Flipping a vehicle around asteroids in a belt would have been a lot more fun; like a platformer--give wheels a field of gravity, since they are 'space wheels'. And presto, then you have some pretty fun to design, and use, mining ships.

    I feel they're using Space Engineers as too much as a testing ground and development platform for tech which will benefit other titles. But is not benefitting Space Engineers itself. Gameplay aspects like survival are much more fleshed out in titles such as Medieval Engineers and the upcoming Space Engineers 2.0 will probably offer more immersive gameplay, since that is the pattern with Keen, it seems. Miner Wars is a direct spring board for Space Engineers. It is a direct clone, expanded in a different direction. (In the demo of Miner Wars, the blocks are the same, the signals are the same, even the shaders are the same. Minus the new graphical stuff, of course. The bloom, and HDR. You could swear it was the same game.)

    I know I can only speak for myself, but I expected more out of Space Engineers and I really dislike that, that "more" turned out to be, in hindsight, the addition of planets.
     
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  24. Malware Master Engineer

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    9,861
    If it weren't for planets I'd have left Space Engineers behind a long time ago. They added completely new engineering challenges, something that there's just too little of.

    You know, SE was originally supposed to be in the same universe as Miner Wars, so of course there's similarities. Miner wars don't even have building, though, so calling that a clone is just ridiculous... but it is made from an evolution of the same game engine.

    I don't really understand "lost the old asteroid maps", though. You can (a) create them yourself easily or (b) just start an empty space with asteroid generation. You've lost nothing.



    If planets are "left field" because it's a player suggestion then 80% of this game is left field ;)

    "What do planets have to do with a game about engineering ships and stations that allow you to survive and thrive in space? I don't know!"
    Making ships that's capable of transitioning between space and planets...
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2018
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  25. Tenzo Apprentice Engineer

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    285
    @Malware Really? Maybe I'm the one out of touch.

    What is it you really missed from the game before planets? Was it getting visually stale?

    I honestly never felt the visuals were holding the game back. But then again, I spent 2000 hours in EVE online, staring at 2D skyboxes... So, I might be a bit biased in how I look at the term "environments".
     
  26. Cetric Junior Engineer

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    814
    It's up to you. You can completely ignore planets if they cause you headaches (?) but then you miss the most beautiful impressions in your space. And what would your esteemed space be if there were no planets at all? A big void. Which would cause more nagging than your complaining about planets being there. And it is my personal conviction planets added to the success of SE significantly.

    Again, it is all in your hands. You want asteroid fields? Create them. Random ones or from workshop. Spread them out to your liking - voila - your asteroid map. What's your problem beyond having to nag?
     
  27. TenshouYoku Apprentice Engineer

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    103
    I have to agree the beautiful scene when you rise above the planet and see the blue sphere under you really worths it, even if they hit my PC extremely hard.
    That again, maybe it's because I am really late in the SE roster...
     
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  28. Tenzo Apprentice Engineer

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    285
    (Similarities doesn't really fit. Almost everything is the same, like cannibalizing an old boat for lumber. You make a new boat, but all the parts are directly from the old boat.

    I did say it was taking the old infrastructure/tech they developed in Miner Wars, and repurposed it - new game using the old assets, and gave it a different direction.

    Nothing wrong with using an older game to springboard a new game, it's their work. But saying it's not the same foundation behind it is just not true. Not going to argue semantics but to me, that's a clone with modded gameplay and sound. Whatever else it became years later, it started very much where Miner Wars left off.)

    No, you can't get the same asteroid generation. You can only do procedural asteroids, and those asteroids are so different than the old ones. They are very small, very far apart, and lack the sense of atmosphere the old asteroids that weren't infinite provided. :(

    I wish you could spawn them again, but they took out that option some time ago, and didn't really offer an explanation or even a note of the removal in the change log.

    You used to be able to do both infinite and non-infinite generation when you started a new game. Now they are gone for even worlds without planets. Making and painting them with resources yourself would really ruin the element of surprise, I think.
    --- Automerge ---
    No, I totally fell in love with the Moon scenario where you have that awesome vista when you first load in. Gorgeous.

    But you could do the same thing with a skybox.
     
  29. Malware Master Engineer

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    9,861
    There's no shared assets. The engine is pretty much completely rewritten. The voxel system is completely rewritten. All graphics elements has been recreated... some several times, even. I'm sorry, but you're way out there. All that's left is some fleeting visual similarity.

    Oh and I never said it wasn't the foundation. In fact I said the opposite... but there's near nothing left of that foundation now.

    I am not in a position to double check right now so I'll have to take your word for it... but you could the last time I did check. I'll try to remember to double check tonight.
     
  30. Roxette Senior Engineer

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    1,539
    I believe when they changed the format of the asteroid definition files they chose not to update the old large asteroids. The files (or some of them) are still present but are now just stone, there's no ores present.
     
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