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New! State of Development, Open Development in Early Access, Changes to Release System, Xbox One

Discussion in 'Change Log' started by Drui, Mar 13, 2018.

  1. KissSh0t Master Engineer

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    I guess, normal survival game would mean what is built is intended to have a purpose, not just 100 rooms that have no purpose.... if that makes sense?

    A survival build is built for a purpose, a creative build while can be built for a purpose as you say to test out if it works, there are creative builds like that huge ship, that aren't built for a purpose other than being a recreation of something from Movie / TV Show.
     
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  2. Petr Beranek Developer Staff

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    Legitimate concern? yes it is. But in dozen of last days this topic was already covered in here, and in the other thread (last change log). I have already covered the topic we are working on major update and there is just too much work to do. Lot of work equals lot of time. Pyramids were not built in one day.

    PS That was nothing against you. You can't take life that serious. You should learn how to make fun of yourself too. Life is only one, it is hard and full of s***, better to make fun of it, cause it won't get better :D
     
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  3. Tenzo Apprentice Engineer

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    @Petr Beranek I have a suggestion.

    Allow a client/server side option: Disable Havok for grids consisting of more than 50000 blocks.

    That way, if players want to build very big things they can do so without impacting their performance. They can go at it, and shoot each other's ships in the "old school" style. Before fancy block physics became a thing. You don't have to optimize for crazy builds, but you should let players play with their creations (without worrying about becoming a slide show).
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2018 at 08:26
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  4. Petr Beranek Developer Staff

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    Btw I am not a "forum staff". I am just a person, who just decided to be part of community, who also happens to be developer. But as there are too much people, who are too serious and can't stand a poke, I will rather use my other account... or put up signiture with "don't take it too seriously" or something similar.
    --- Automerge ---
    Man, that was just a joke... too bad forum has no "joke" tags... maybe I will start putting <joke></joke> tags around things that shouldn't be taken seriously :D
    --- Automerge ---
    This was more an expectation of others being "triggered".
     
  5. Malware Master Engineer

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    @AJman14 Might be because the answer has been given several times in this thread already ;)
     
  6. Arcturus Senior Engineer

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    I don't think "disable Havok" means what you think it means. Here, let's look at a time Havok was accidentally disabled: https://forums.keenswh.com/threads/...ove-when-touching-a-surface-resolved.7384432/
     
  7. Petr Beranek Developer Staff

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    From my point of view, this is more of cinematic created using SE. All it was supposed to show, were the new visual changes and show them in form of story. Who would want to watch "this is difference between new an old explosion, this is difference between new and old damaged solar panel..." So Joel created a story out of it.

    But, as it was recording of SE, it is possible in some way or other... but I don't expect that everything was taken within one scene with all those ships and so much people at all times. All it was supposed to show were new visual effects with some narrative.
     
  8. Tenzo Apprentice Engineer

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    @Arcturus Haha, ouch. That was the game going *splat* for a whole lot of people. :)

    But, in defense of the idea, it is very different to create an algorithm specifically to turn off Havok computations for a "specific" thing, in a specific scenario, as opposed to everything in the game shutting down because the Havok computations *unexpectedly* stopped working (due to the licence expiring).

    What I'm trying to say is, creating the algorithm to suspend Havok in certain circumstances and offer an alternate behaviour set is exponentially easier, than trying to optimize Havok for grids consisting of thousands and thousands of blocks. Which Havok cannot do, anyway. So instead of trying to cheat it in clever ways, an alternative of turning it off with appropriate code hooks that retain rudimentary functions for blocks might be a whole lot more practical.

    That's my take, anyway. Maybe it's harder? Who knows, I'm not a coder but I figured I should suggest the idea.
     
  9. Petr Beranek Developer Staff

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    That would probably cause that things with disabled havok will not move, wont, be hit by missiles, you will fly through, you wont stand on them, you won't be able to interact with them in any way (not even using terminal, as it is probably done with raycast)...

    I don't know, but wouldn't it cause more troubles to you? :D
    --- Automerge ---
    <joke> OMG! you are really active today... I expected all my posts to be automerged as always... You just screwed up my plan :D now I have million of posts here instead of one nice wall of text.... thanks :D </joke>
     
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  10. Tenzo Apprentice Engineer

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  11. Cetric Junior Engineer

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    If you read Petr's comments, you will soon notice it is one of his character traits to write in sarcastic style. He is a human being like eveyone else. No 'treebeard SE clone' and no polished suit-and-tie broad-grinning slimy pretentious marketing guy* who takes a bath in political correctness each morning...

    So why people expect Petr or any other developer to act other than he is, especially when he speaks for himself and not as spokesperson* of the studio? Celebrate the difference, the versatilty and genuity of persons involved- just like about our game here.
    --- Automerge ---
    Also I think that having to read each morning salty accusing comments of some half-wits who think they know more about the game than developers - provokes some stress and a tendency towards sarcasm. When the coffee is cold, in particular.
     
  12. Malware Master Engineer

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    @Cetric Believe me, I get mr. Beranek's frustration - but: I've been in the software business for quite some time, as a programmer. One thing I have learned is that when you're talking publicly with a tag that identifies you as an employee of a given company, you are a representative of that company whether you want to or not. It's just how the world works. Even if you're just a programmer and public relations is not your job, it's expected that you act accordingly: your behavior will reflect on your employer. Thus while you certainly should be allowed to make jokes like any other average joe, one still needs to moderate oneself a bit. (Cc @Petr Beranek with all due respect :) )
     
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  13. Neraniel Trainee Engineer

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    Ok, thats actually a good point :D
     
  14. Petr Beranek Developer Staff

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    Aproximately 64% of my posts are sarcasm :D
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2018 at 13:18
  15. Gustavo Julião Trainee Engineer

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    I know I've said a lot about this, but have some foresight or if you're already working on Multithreading for the dedicated server (Multiplayer) to improve performance. As I have repeated several times since the dedicated server program uses one core and part of another for multiplayer processing not taking advantage of all processor cores.
     
  16. Roxette Junior Engineer

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    Can confirm, used sed and awk to analyse the forum, and the math checks out.
     
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  17. Malware Master Engineer

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    They already have a whole lot of multithreading, friend. Even the physics is partially multithreaded. As you have been told already, Multithreading is not a silver bullet that can solve everything and not everything can be moved to another thread. Programmers don't control what cores is used. The framework and operating system does a better job with that. You are arguing with professional programmers here, they know what they are doing.
     
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  18. Gustavo Julião Trainee Engineer

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    (I am developer also work in PYTHON language) I understand that some things can not change to another thread but there are many things that can example administration of the intens could work on a separate thread without compromising the physical or other systems. Also has the distortion of objects that I'm not sure I can be wrong in that part, but I think it can get separated into a different thread. These are things that can take people out of a core. As I see on the server that together with the staff we did.
     
  19. Malware Master Engineer

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    There's lots of experienced developers in this community. I myself have worked with numerous languages including C, C++, pascal variants as well as my current favorite C# and others over the course of what's now passed 25 years. I have also worked with Space Engineers' source code and I made the current programmable block compiler system. Thus I'm not exactly without experience both outside and inside Space Engineers, I have a good idea of what's going on, and an idea of who these people are and what they can do. They know what can and cannot be threaded more than any of us. They've spent a lot of time trying to coax performance out of the game and they are still doing it. They made this engine from scratch, after all: I seriously doubt you or I can come up with much they haven't already considered in this matter.
     
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  20. beelzerob Apprentice Engineer

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    ESPECIALLY when it is the only communication the community has with the company.
     
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  21. captainbladej52 Apprentice Engineer

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    Every company out there today is going to try to talk up their product or service and convince you that their good/service is better than all of their competitors, that's basic economics 101. When it comes to honesty in advertising, yes there is some honesty expected in the field. Let's assume for sake of argument I'm in the market for a new video editing software with features A B C D E. Let's also assume that I find a software that claims it has A B C D E F G, which would give me what I need plus a little bonus. I fully 100% expect that when I purchase said software that it will indeed have features A B C D E F G. If I purchase said software only to find out that it only has features A B C, then I'm going to be pissed and rightfully so. At that point what you have is a clear cut and dry case of false advertising and any company that pulled a stunt like that would get their rear ends handed to them in court, and again rightfully so. Continuing with our analogy I fully expect that company to try to tell me "oh this is the world's best software for what you're doing" or something like that to try to talk it up to me. I also expect that if I'm paying for features A B C D E F G that I'm going to get features A B C D E F G, if not then we have false advertising and an outright scam. Thankfully with Space Engineers that's not what we're talking about however.

    The video I linked above doesn't lie no, but it does in fact give alot of false impressions as to what the average game can and may entail. Thus the video doesn't tell the entire story or give all of the relevant information to folks who may consider purchasing the game after seeing that update. With every update video they typically include some type of space battle or heavy action type of bit like the one above. If a new prospective player sees that type of video, they're going to get the idea that perhaps they and their friends can do the same thing, especially since there is nothing in the video to state that type of action is not typical or expected in a typical game. There's also a huge difference in "your experience may vary" and the average gamer perhaps not being able to do even half of what this video suggests. I'm glad you recognize that if folks see a team of 10 disembarking from the ship they will naturally assume the other team has at least 10 players of their own, and thus the can get 20 people on without too many issues, and have a modest space battle like the one in the clip. The problem is that the video gives the impression those types of epic space adventure type elements can happen, with nothing to suggest otherwise, yet the average gamer may struggle to get even 6 of his friends on the server with him, let alone the other 14. This borders dangerously on No Man's Sky territory. The game was hyped up as being some super massively epic space adventure type thing where you could run into other players, check out all these different planets etc, yet what they got was less than half that. I would rather not see Space Engineers fall into that same kind of infamy as No Man's Sky did as I rather enjoy Space Engineers. However I worry that unless better information and clarity etc is given, that it will indeed hit No Man's Sky territory.

    THIS and I repeat, one billion times this. If Keen is going to make these videos like the one above that showcases a modest space battle and crew of players on a server then that's cool and I have no issues with it. The problem I see is now it's essentially being said in here that those sort of things aren't typical and that it's just a pretty action shot basically. If that's the case then that needs to be made ABUNDANTLY clear that's the video above basically amounts to a fancy cutscene, and that to pull off such a thing, the average gamer is going to need to get their own rig and/or server dedicated purely to SE to make that happen. Right now that distinction of what basically amounts to a cutscene, and what is expected in the average game is NOT being made clear at all.

    I'm sure it was shot in whatever way made it look the coolest and so on, which I expect for videos like this. I have no problem with actions shots and such being made, and I don't think the majority of the populace of players do either. The issue I take is when all these shots are made and the game is hyped up, only for folks to find out later on, "yeah you can do that but you'll need a rig built specifically for this game to do it that also requires the sacrifice of a virgin to power it." Point being, there is not enough distinction in the videos to say what is done purely for show, and what the average gamer can truly expect from the game as possibilities. Most folks understand hardware and software limits exist and can't be ignored, as much as we all wish we could play Space Engineers on our own private Holodeck. The key is that not enough is done to distinguish between what is done purely for cinematic purposes, and what is an expected typical experience for the average gamer. Since that clear defined distinction is not made, you're getting alot of false hope and expectations of what the capabilities of the game actually are and what they can expect, thus cause some of the issues you see now of too high of expectations. Until clear distinctions of what the average gamer can expect are actually made vs what is cinematic etc, you guys will continue to have some of these issues.
     
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  22. Cetric Junior Engineer

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    How do you know the other team is supposed to have also 10 players? Where is this stated? - You are imagining things and then you call on KEEN for making misleading game performance hints, which aren't there. They are not responsible of what people who watch this or another video fantasize about and imagine how many players are in the other ship, in fact you can imagine anything you want for the storytelling, if there is an army of 10.000 treebeards onboard or a simple autopilot block or whatever else. I see no clearly made allegation from publisher's side and if you go to court with a charge like this, about misleading customer information etc, you would be laughed at.
     
  23. Calaban Apprentice Engineer

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    When I saw the eye-candy cinematic, I understood immediately what it was to show off said eye-candy.

    After watching the "blooper out takes" and "how it was made" videos- I knew it was in no way representative as actual gameplay. It was many "scenes" painfully scripted together- for a show.

    It took me just a tiny bit of digging to know the video for what it was: some awesome Machinima.

    To think or expect it to be representative of actual gameplay experience is ignorantly naive [the worst kind]. It would be like thinking the cut scenes in Halo represent things you can actually do in engine as the gameplay experience... and getting angry about it when you find out that no- you dont actually get to push a nuke out of a spacecraft and fall through an alien cruiser in orbit as you fall to Earth.
     
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  24. torgo Apprentice Engineer

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    188
    Actually, I do real life model rocketry, both pre-made kits and building from scratch. Somehow, that isn't illegal yet here in the Peoples Democratic Republic of New Jersey. I've also got my 7 year old involved in helping build them.

    There's not much opportunity to launch them, though, between October and April. And this year, even May is not cooperating.
     
  25. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

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    2,142
    Actually, the cutscenes in Halo: Reach were made using the game engine.

    This isn't about any one particular video. Keen made a video every week proclaiming one thing or another was now possible, and that "soon" other things would be possible. Things were said in blogs, on Twitter and Facebook. Xocliw has had staff and Marek himself on his stream saying one way or another we should expect "more", and these days they're saying "more people in multiplayer".

    People need to understand that my ship Chilkoot Trail was not something I attempted last month. She was conceptually finished in June of 2014. She has been a useable, functional ship since the game's initial release. She is not new. I got lucky in that I never put pretty curves and shapes on her, so she doesn't violate the shape restrictions they imposed after the uproar over block limits. I'm not saying a ship the size of Chilkoot should be possible, I'm saying it is possible and has been for some time. It really is a matter of how much horsepower your rig has.

    Which brings up the other point. The major difference between console games and pc games is that when you buy a console game and load it in your console it will work, and it will work just as well in your friend's console as it does in yours. When you buy a pc game, you're not done spending money. New game means more memory (more expensive memory), new graphics card, new monitor, new hard drive, more peripherals... anyone watching a video of pc gameplay is automatically wondering what kind of rig the developers did it on, and that person is assuming it's way more better than what they have because developers only use the best stuff.

    So, do I have the right game for building ships like this?
    [​IMG]
    and this?
    [​IMG]
    Because if Space Engineers is the wrong game, there just flat isn't a right game, so Space Engineers will just have to do.
     
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  26. Thrak Apprentice Engineer

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    @Stardriver907 - good point about the term "cutscenes," which I think are really interstitial visuals within gameplay. The old Mass Effect series, for example, used (I think) the in-game engine for "character" scenes but pre-rendered videos for "spaceship" scenes, generally. Of course, SE does not (as of yet, at least) feature "cutscenes" in the truest sense.

    When I mentioned the practice of labeling footage earlier in this thread, I specifically meant promotional material, i.e., trailers for video games. Of course, theatrical trailers now feature alternative shots and special effects never intended for the actual movie, in order to entice the audience (I am looking at you, Rogue One). I must say, however, that I found it... well, ironic, I guess... that Keen's promotional video for the new in-game lighting and post-processing used video processing external to the game to achieve its final look. In fact, wasn't there a mistaken announcement that those tools would be released to the public, and then retracted? Or did I imagine that part?

    As to one's "right" to attempt to build anything one wants in SE, of course one has the right to try. The question becomes, how much should one expect to actually be able to achieve? The fact that there's even a .22 sim speed on with a single grid as big as the Chilkoot Trail is testament to how far the game has come, I suppose.
     
  27. Wicorel Senior Engineer

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    That's not correct. They didn't impose those limits; they always existed.

    It's a hard-limit in the engine. They just let you go over the limit and have weird stuff happen because areas would not have physics calculated correctly.

    Now they warn you about the limits and don't let you make things that will break.

    There is also a maximum limit to the number of blocks in a grid. Again, a hard limit in the engine itself.
     
  28. Malware Master Engineer

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    @Wicorel @Stardriver907 To be precise: It's a hard limit in the Havok physics engine, not VRage. Which is why Keen can do nothing about it. And yes, it has always been there.

    The maximum limit to the number of blocks in a grid is significantly higher than the physics limit though, to the point of meaning very little.
     
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  29. Petr Beranek Developer Staff

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    I still don't understand where do you get the energy to repeat it to other people 2-3x a week. Most stunning is, that you do without any trace of sarcasm :D
     
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  30. Tenzo Apprentice Engineer

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    If Malware were a Fallout character, he would have the Good Natured perk.

    :)
     
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