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strong opposition to death bag timing out, FLAX is the only key, rework Blacksmithing

Discussion in 'General' started by ibisgrunk, Apr 29, 2018.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. ibisgrunk Apprentice Engineer

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    142
    If you are going to have Steel in ME might as well bring in Gunpowder and might as well laugh at building catapaults:

    "...Moreover, it appears that, at least in Europe, 'quenching and tempering separately do not seem to have become common until the 15th century'; it is therefore helpful to distinguish between 'full quenching' of steel, where the quenching is so rapid that only martensite forms, and 'slack quenching', where the quenching is slower or interrupted, which also allows pearlite to form and results in a less brittle product..." [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quenching]

    TLDR: death bag too important to player to have disappear, flax is greatest resource in game, and we need to redo blacksmithing logic in ME. My favorite self quote is "ME needs to die and become Renaissance Engineers."

    Note guys this is a free form spout by me of serious game blockers that are driving this 1400 hour veteran of ME away from the game, i do not want to play with these obstacles to fun :

    DEATH BAG: the death bag timing out is shear brutal... it deincentivizes exploration. and when like for me its full of your only steel tools* its just a bitter pill to swallow. about the only tension in the game is the fury to recover your bag. five steel tools, rope, food, and gold ingots all lost... it really makes me want to not play ME, let alone having to redo all of that. there is no fun in a lost death bag. i challenge every logic and concept otherwise, and please play hours and hours of ME before saying losing a death bag is a good thing. (i spent 1.5 human hours trying to find mine only to have another player say they time out now). i have no reason to ever leave my area as long as a death bag times out. so everyone is building a castle for only themselves to look at?

    FLAX GREATER THAN GOLD AND SILVER: flax makes the cloth, flax makes so much you need in this game it is the most critical resource in the game. flax makes steel... you could remove gold and silver and i wouldnt know, remove flax and the game stops. without a flax farm making linseed oil is a circular pain in the ass -- dont ever lose more steel weapons like i did trying to find flax to rebuild a worn tool. you can go all iron, have fun with that... steel is a luxury? btw you need a rope per trebuchet shot, so again flax is gold... the need for flax drives exploring the planet, but the loss of the death bag negates the incentive to explore, a circular horror. See http://www.ameriflax.com/default.cfm?page=industry, linseed oil is a lubricant, flaxseed = linseed. there is no history of its use as a liquid for quenching... flaxseed doesnt go into any forge.

    CHANGE THE BLACKSMITH CRAFTING LOGIC:

    first how is it done, what are the processes? then how can ME make it fun and integrated?
    • Quenching >>> from http://blacksmith.org/forum/heat-treating/quenching-oil/ i read:
      "There is not an ideal quenching oil. The quenching process involves cooling steel from its optimum quenching temperature (which varies between different alloys), down to room temperature (and sometimes down to cryogenic temperatures) at a certain rate. Different steels require different starting temperatures and different cooling rates.
      Oil cools hot steel slower than water cools it. Additives like soap or salt in water can affect the cooling rate. Initial temperature of the quenching liquid affects cooling rate. Motion of the steel through the liquid affects cooling rate. Different oils provide different cooling rates."
      I am not experience in anything forge or blacksmithing limiting myself to watching Forge in Fire, but one thing a quench can do is make or break the crafting - i would suggest this in ME would be simulated with a player not always producing a great tool, imagine not only crafting a steel hammer but then its quality is affected randomly, you could make a soft undesirable hammer (what they call the file test, running a file along the metal to feel its hardness). But refer to first paragraph above which basically says quenching like this and making steel is 15th century which means we have run into gunpowder era which means ME needs to die and become Renaissance Engineers. Linseed oil certainly not involved.
      "Why do you quench a blade in oil?
      When hardness can be sacrificed, mineral oils are often used. These oil based fluids often oxidize and form a sludge during quenching, which consequently lowers the efficiency of the process. The quenching velocity (cooling rate) of oil is much less than water."​
    I am almost at the point that the real process of making steel is a pain, a mix of science and art. I would wonder if for ME perhaps making a Sword has this lengthy process rather than making Tools? In other words, if you want a Sword you got to go down this route, but if you need to craft a steel hammer its less difficult? I would argue quenching is only a need for putting a sharp edge on a knife/sword/axe. A Hammer doesnt need so much care to craft? I dont think Axes were quenched...​
    • Forge is a what? >>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forge says "A forge is a type of hearth used for heating metals, or the workplace (smithy) where such a hearth is located. The forge is used by the smith to heat a piece of metal to a temperature where it becomes easier to shape by forging, or to the point where work hardening no longer occurs. The metal (known as the "workpiece") is transported to and from the forge using tongs, which are also used to hold the workpiece on the smithy's anvil while the smith works it with a hammer. Sometimes, such as when hardening steel or cooling the work so that it may be handled with bare hands, the workpiece is transported to the slack tub, which rapidly cools the workpiece in a large body of water. However, depending on the metal type, it may require an oil quench or a salt brine instead; many metals require more than plain water hardening. The slack tub also provides water to control the fire in the forge." OMG we need an ANVIL! look at all the key words here like smithy, anvil, and tongs that can be worked into ME? Also see what a Furnace really is at [a link to another Keen!] at http://www.keenovens.com/articles/steel-furnance.htm.
    IDEA INTERRUPTER: If in ME a forge upgrades from a smithy, then i recommend a similar upgrade for the "Furnace" -- note a Furnace is a much larger purposed smelting station and i would name it a "Forge" that then upgrades into a "Furnace". again the logic of needing a better work station to produce better tools follow that we need a better smelter to make steel imho. So I would rework as follows: blacksmithing path of ANVIL to SMITHY, then on the smelting side FORGE into a FURNACE. Steel needs the highest of both to make, smithy and furnace! note also a FORGE/FURNACE require heat, and we need to separate the two functions?
    • Steel is an Alloy >>>> and more than just iron and charcoal - so why not have tin or copper act (sidestep metallurgy science a little unless Keen ads nickel to the resources) as an alloy additive. personally i find Tin to be worthless, imagine it as the key alloy add to make steel? i would love tweaks to this like 3 iron, 1 copper, 2 tin to make sword worthy steel... steel is a carbon thing, keeping it simple . That link made me rethink our Furnace as well.

    OK stopping there... but i want Keen to know today was the worst playing experience i have had in a while, chasing crafting requirements with what really just amounts to a tedium of finding flax. i am bored joining new servers just to hit the tech tree wall every time, and when a server wipes and resets i have to do the tech tree all over again... not fun. I also think nobody is going PvP in any form and what is happening is the purpose of building seige weapons has faded over time. folks are building attack stuff, just a lot of villages and rules to not touch anyone else's castles. what good is a castle with walls and a moat when/if nobody ever even sees it? i think the challenge of Medieval era should transform this title into Renaissance era where folks can build more and war less? I dont know of a single server in play where i can challenge a single opponent to anything... right now its folks building their own villages in their own valleys and never leaving the Shire.

    shock paddles needed for ME, i almost deleted it from the hard drive this morning i was so disenchanted...
     
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  2. Yurets Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    56
    Well, there is an everlasting discussion about it. So far, items disappear in games like Minecraft, Terraria, Life Is Feudal and mostly people are fine with it. Minecraft, however, is highly modded, so some people use no-despawn mods. So, for me it is quite normal - if I die, then I lose my stuff. Or I run as fast as I can.

    Yeah, I also imagine it is pain. But so all metallurgy. And you won't believe, but axes and hammers are quenched (at least nowadays) and this quenching is probably even more complicated, since hardness and toughness should be different at different places. Swords are just quenched. Tempering always goes next to quenching. It is quite a similar process and rather simple - metal is heated up to certain temperature and then cooled down. This temperature is lower, than for quenching. This certain temperature defines properties and I believe every professional blacksmith knows these temperature ranges.

    Well... If you take plain carbon steel, then it is really just Iron and Carbon (plus Manganese quite often, but we don't have it in ME). And I'm afraid Tin is not used in steel production (not as far as I found).


    Anyway, game is a game, most of processes are simplified and I'm glad that they are. I've played some mods with a bit more realistic approaches (TerraFirmaCraft for Minecraft, for example) and it is kind of heavy. It would be nice, if developers will be able to give a possibility for modding community to do such things, but I personally wouldn't really want to see them in the base game.
     
  3. CptTwinkie ME Asst. Producer Staff

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    4,369
    The possibility more than exists to make mods for these kinds of things. The crafting system if very versatile. We don't really have any interest in making the metal crafting any more complicated in the vanilla game. It is already too much for some players who just want to make tools or weapons and get on with building their castle. Our aim in balancing the crafting systems is to make the game comfortable for the majority of players. Our extensive system for modding exists for players who wish to make changes. Undoubtedly, after 1400 hours in a game you will wish to try things differently. You can experiment with the mods that exist in the workshop and, if you aren't satisfied with any of them, you can make your own. Crafting is controlled entirely through sbc files which are just XML definitions. If you can edit a web page you can make a definition mod.
     
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  4. Ghostickles Senior Engineer

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    2,070
    The death bag thing though, that is brutal. Could it be made to not despawn until another death bag is created by the same player (or two bags even)?
     
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  5. CptTwinkie ME Asst. Producer Staff

    Messages:
    4,369
    I'm not sure. It might be possible with some C# scripting if the proper classes are whitelisted. A much easier mod would be changing the <DecayTime> for "Bag". The definition is in EntityComponents.sbc. You can set it to a really high number.
     
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  6. ibisgrunk Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    142
    i love thinking about ME and appreciate Captain your listening to it all -- i am so afraid to get into modding until the game is finished (pm me the end date and i will send you a frozen chicago deep dish pizza), consider me a Sir Robin until then... but i think i have a clever idea for swapping out linseed with vegetable oil:

    [​IMG]

    my mod would be Vegetable/Deer Fat Oil [and Lanterns - moving that to the mod threads! because vegetable oil and animal fat are fuel...]. Vegetable oil is made from cabbage and or roots in game. Grindstone them into a clay jar. The quenching in the slack tub would be not linseed oil but vegetable oil. Deer fat comes from the deer skin being put into the stretcher, the tanning rack, and would need a clay jar for the deer fat extraction.

    so Captain what is it going to be pizza or vegetable oil?
     
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  7. Tenzo Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    213
    I agree with flax being the most important thing in the game. Maybe the costs for rope could be reduced? Say by a third?

    I don't mind having to wait for growing flax. It's just that I have to plant it in industrial quantities (very little of it gets re-used), and planting all of it by hand takes a lot of time. Plant. Wait for the animation cooldown to finish. Find another spot. Repeat.

    Or maybe you could harvest more flax from one plot, if it was properly tended to. Not sure what that would mean in game terms, but perhaps it just needs to mean, not "wild". Homegrown would harvest more. Or maybe add a sickle? That would improve harvesting rate.

    That would be nice, I think.
     
  8. Yurets Trainee Engineer

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    56
    I just build a small farm. It is quite cheap (single plow, harvester and seeder) and also space efficient. Harvests are approximately 200-250 units. Which is quite enough for me. And it is still not in industrial scale.
     
  9. Ghostickles Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,070
    Flax is pretty valuable, but once you have a working farm its not so hard to stockpile more than you will ever use. The one recommendation I would make is returning a rope to a player when the player detached a rope because its faster to simply pull and replace a stake or rope end than it is to detach and reattach a rope given the same end results. Yeah, i know, its come up before.
    @ibisgrunk that's a good idea for oils, using other vegetables. It probably wouldn't be so bad to have crafting material options and expand the use of other crops.
    :)
     
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  10. ibisgrunk Apprentice Engineer

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    142
    i say pull linseed oil entirely as necessary for the creation of steel, [my argument steel and the process of quenching is too late to be medieval, and quenching with flax is unnecessary]:

    "Quenching in oil is very modern, from the 15th century. The traditional methods during the Middle Ages were water, brine and cold air (the sword was given to a horserider that then went full speed for a while). " ref from some putz

    "...When you wish to harden a piece of iron, add an equal amount of a man's urine and some of the juice obtained from the little worm known as cockchafer grubs...." ref and published 1534, and yes i could work on a mod to make urine...

    also from above link to the 1534 manuscript is Eisenkraut, Eisenkraut, Eisenkraut! and being further anal, to a point we are cell mates, i say substitute Herbs for Flax if you have to have an oil based on this chase: Eisenkraut is Vervain which is "Verbena officinalis, the common vervain or common verbena, is a perennial herb native to Europe. It grows up to a metre/yard high, with an upright habitus. The lobed leaves are toothed, the delicate spikes hold mauve flowers."

    i hate myself going on like this but just hope ghostickles chuckles at it.

    @Captain its so easy to tell the dev team to change linseed oil to herb oil or kill it for steel tool making because grunkibis will not stop posting on it and is offering your WHOLE team now frozen deep dish chicago pizzas because i dont think you will say yes.

    @Yurets, thanks, good advice. when you have no flax you should build a flax farm, got it. and when you have a lot of flax you dont need more flax, got it. i will use my Iron or Wood Crossbow to kill you and take your flax from the fields... now that sire is Medieval. :words:



    btw farmers please wall in your farms or a guy like me will do just like the hobbits do and sample the goods: [​IMG]
     
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  11. Yurets Trainee Engineer

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    56
    Then you find 2 wild flax, make seeds and blah.

    But I agree with quenching in water. It is a much simpler method and results can be the same as for oil. After all quenching in water is widely used, because hardness is much higher. Just in this case steel probably will so easily achievable even in the beginning of the game, which kind of ruins fun - you just jump from copper (or even stone) to steel.

    By the way, I really don't like "invention" limits. So what, that first bicycle was invented in 19th century, it was possible to build it ages ago and it should be possible to build in the game, as long as parts can be made. So what I want to say, quenching in oil was possible in early medieval ages and even earlier, just nobody tried it, which shouldn't stop us from it.

    And there is no need to wall in my farms, due to absence of people on my (offline) server.
     
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  12. CptTwinkie ME Asst. Producer Staff

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    4,369
    I don't think we would do it but one of the programmers is making noises about doing it for a week of pizza and beer....
     
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  13. ibisgrunk Apprentice Engineer

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    142
    [​IMG]
     
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  14. boromir Apprentice Engineer

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    157
    Boo for Renaissance yay for Medieval!!
     
  15. ibisgrunk Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    142
    i started thinking about this more and more, i believe two intercepting courses happen with ME, the oxymoron of bringing medieval with engineer. my theory is that the smarter more intelligent folks that play ME (seriously anyone reading this) are into the building of castles and all things in ME, but are ambivalent about PvE and certainly PvP. crossbows make PvP a snipe fest, more akin to assassins from the night.... PvP is two categories: seige and 1v1. i cant find anyone that wants to 1v1 in ME and i dont want to either - u draw the sword as a last thing. so where am i going with this - ME has a challenge because the intelligent engineers that come into multiplayer ME don't get into competitive fiefdoms battling. that is where the core of the excellence of the game lies in imho - creating moving firing siege weapons. its addictive. raining peaceman's advanced projectile mod's flaming shot at night down on a castle is for me worth $20 just for that 1 hour of play (dev team quick change the game to a subscription model!). the fear of being attacked drives further expansion of defenses, and i play more and more for that chase to the eventual point you conquer your fears and welcome your attackers as you stand proudly on your new tower keep. rare exceptions of truly medieval behavior exists (not dick or griefing, i am saying medieval) in multiplayer servers but when there are its genius (ROM clan fellas i am looking at you!). so we have a game where we can build castles but nobody will siege a castle properly. i am not talking dick siege, i am talking "hey saturday at 8am it begins" kinds of gentlemen siege. folks just dont like their digital personas going medieval. we do boromir, we do...

    but they would like Renaissance.... they would do workshops and trading networks, i find the 2018 mindset much more into the 1618 mindset then ever the 1218 mindset. rare to find a guy that says yeah let me build up my zone a little then lets build two competing new castles and go at it. i blame farming. removing farming. and linseed oil.

    boromir we have too many renaissance men playing a medieval game! they want rapiers, and trade guilds, and oh lordy lordy governments.... probably want laws -- these new kids... we should kick a new thread for Renaissance Engineers and mock all that post?

    boromir and me: [​IMG]

    the new Renaissance Engineer kids: [​IMG]

    (end thought: the Safe Zone is a farm not an Arena so it sets the tone for what ME is attracting, change the Safe Zone change the world's attitude! enter a server with a Battle Arena for a Safe Zone and you know things are going to get medieval!)
     
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  16. Yurets Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    56
    I don't like fighting in ME mainly due to HUGE difference of how easy it is to break and how hard to build. I mean, come on, one shot from a trebushet wastes 2! stone block! width wall. With a single shot. So basically a castle can be totally ruined in minutes.

    And yeah, I'm this "new Renaissance Engineer kid", who likes farming, building, crafting, trading and so on. Probably it was too much of Minecraft, can't change into fighting mode after it anymore.

    But again, if it would be possible to create a castle in a couple of minutes - then yeah, fighting would be the only fun. However, it is possible to do only in Creative.
     
  17. ibisgrunk Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    142
    so during siege you can repair with your hammer any damaged wall, you will actually find that repairing engineers inside castle walls always defeat (through attrition) outside trebuchets imho. same with main gates, a good defender can repair at will and without the crafting components, just left mouse button! some servers have rules that you cant repair gates during siege, hence the difficulty in siege. if your server doesnt have the open sky mod thingy for claim blocks then folks can bury a claim block deep inside a maze, seen it, impossible to take.

    here is what is cool - you go 100% ahead with what you are doing Yurets its all cool, i would want to offer both military protection and trading for flax from you, in exchange i can be summoned to help you against invaders. right there would be a cool connection - i just dont want you to quit if someone rolls up inside a war wagon on the edge of your farm. to me this game has the Vikings hordes fear element driving my behavior offensively and defensively. so imho wall your farm edge, dont like so many folks do just let your plow and gear exist in the wide open... a Renaissance guy quits when the war wagon shows up, i have seen this a lot. we have built a tower next to someone and they quit. thats the too touchy imho, the Renaissance folks as we seem to be negatively calling them. the game is medieval and all farmers, builders, crafters and traders should not be naive to the fact it is a cruel cruel world out there... except for the barking deer, they frighten no one!

    Yurets what i think we need is a two zone mentality, one home zone where basically nobody bothers or messes with anything inside; then and this is what guys like me need in ME to keep it good is a second zone where there is battle... a long time ago i suggested two claim blocks, one a more permanent go-away and another claim block associated with losing to a siege (your house throne or king's crown with your house name on it goes as a trophy - think of why would a Viking bother with a Renaissance world? i also would love if i got to destroy a claim block (that isnt the go-away block) and i get a percentage of all tax paid from the claimer, so if you put hundreds of iron ingots into keeping a claim active and lose it then the conqueror gets a 20% bag drop just like Monopoly's Free Parking). Claim Block and Trophy Block... yurets dont you go a changing!
     
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  18. Yurets Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    56
    Depends on a damage. For example this:
    [​IMG]
    is what happens to a wall, after a single shot from my catapult-trebushet. And it required 39 stones to fully repair this hole. Yes, 39 stones is not so much, just 8 stacks, but still stone stockpile should be placed next to every wall block. so repairs would be fast enough. And attackers should bring couple of stone stockpiles for projectiles and another 4 small stockpiles, just to power this trebushet.

    With the rest I agree. Just want to add, that in my opinion players in this kind of games are divided into 3 basic groups: the ones, who accept only global peace with no wars around (like me at the moment, that's why I now spend my time only in SinglePlayer); the ones, who are still peaceful, but ready to lose something (like me half a year ago, when was playing Life is Feudal (YO and MMO) and was a farmer and forester); and war guys, who are ready to be killed several times in a row, lose everything just to have an opportunity to gain something (me in games, where there is (almost) nothing to lose).
     
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  19. Thermonuklear Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    590
    The death bag thing should really be retouched.
    On the metalworking rant I agree in spirit, but... It's a game, stuff that sounds cool won't translate well in a game enviroment. For example I like eating, but hate everything food-related in games. And, well, blacksmithing is more fun in RL. Join us... www.iforgeiron.com
     
  20. Mirek Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    113
    The death Bag is OK i think. If you die from being uncareful, you should be punnished.

    As for Crafting, crafting lacks too much in immersion. i would change it as follows:
    1. tools
    at least sharpen stone, stone axe and wooden hammer should be mandatory to craft in your gear. the magical crafting that is in the game now is too magical. example: sharpen stone crafted from smallstone - > processing scrapwood with the sharpstone -> processed scrapwood + stone creates stone axe -> stone axe cuts trees - > stone axe makes logs from trees -> stone axe makes crude timber usable for some basic woodwork.

    2. crafting proces for metal
    - charcoal should be produced in charcoal pile wich would be destroyed after producing charcoal. dirt+wood+clay = charcoal pile -> torch lits the pile -> when pile stops smoking it would be destroyed/mined by pickaxe or showel giving the player some charcoal
    - furnace/ smelter should require charcoal as fuel.
    - Crafting of steel should be separted to: smelting-> forging-> cooling -> assembly -> sharpening (optional)
    -Every step should be animated and require player to actualy be there and do the work
     
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