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Summary of the current and future state of survival?

Discussion in 'General' started by Sixela963, Dec 30, 2017.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Sixela963 Trainee Engineer

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    For quite some time the focus has been on two things: physics and multiplayer. Physics is actually starting to work really well (in most cases), and multiplayer has improved too (while clearly still not perfect: just the other day I had to grind the wheels of my interplanetary flying rover because my friend kept being teleported by them).

    I only wanted to know what is now going to happen to the game's final obstacle to being the perfect space-industrial physics-derp simulator: Survival.

    It is a secret to noone that once you reached the alien planet or whatever was your goal, the game slowly becomes like creative, with the pain of limited ressources. This can be fixed by giving the player many side-goals(extending even further creation possibilities seems a bit hard now, so maybe a slight improvement to achievements, e.g. cosmetic rewards?) and/or making the goal harder/more satisfying to reach, reaching each planet becoming a bit dull as time passes, and/or giving another even stronger goal after that (e.g. like Minecraft did with the ender dragon, then later the wither, then even later the improvements to the End).

    Some time ago, I remember a bunch of teasers for a hydrogen engine and a windmill. When will they come? What are the other plans to enhance the survival experience, such as food, or drinking? And exploration/better worldgen, such as with the exploration enhancement mod?
     
  2. halipatsui Senior Engineer

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    What probably ia coming:
    Tiered advancement along with tech tree.
    Basically easier to access worse parts that act mostly as a skipping stone to higher tier tech.(hydrogen motor vs nuclear reactor for example) Might actually add quite nice progression.

    What i would like:
    Palnetary encounters, boss fights, actually STRONG enemies.

    Many of these thibgs are already made possible by the community so i dont know what keen ends up implementing but well see eventually.
     
  3. ShadedMJ Apprentice Engineer

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    You might want to check the forums for each of those features that ask the same questions. The answer is "They will come when they are ready." and there really can't be any other answer. There are a good amount of existing items that will need work.

    Many of those discussions came up with some of these features can be seen as a downgrade but as a downgrade that should have been in place a long time ago. Easy-start bases and pirate bases may have to be heavily redesigned, along with the planets and asteroids.

    Hydrogen engines would run on hydrogen, which goes along with uranium becoming much harder to find.

    Windmills, in my opinion, are going to provide slightly more overall power in a time period than solar panels.

    New assemblers that will not build sophisticated components until it is provided the plans for those components that can be found in either pirate ships or something similar to the loot crates recently introduced.

    Food is a huge topic. The concept needs changes to the astronaut data (hunger/thirst bar). Food as items, terrain and block designs, and still trying to keep the game as Space Engineers, not Food Engineers.
     
  4. halipatsui Senior Engineer

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    I kinda doubt there will be food mechanics
     
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  5. UrbanLegend Apprentice Engineer

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    If we're wishing for stuff and resources and performance aren't an issue?

    I like the concept of an NPC "crew". Maybe behaving similar to how the nanobot mod works. They would roam around your ship or facility fixing stuff, mining resources, bringing injured characters to medbay, fighting off enemies, etc. Maybe introduce sleep, food and psychological factors. Think Rimworld.

    Similarly, more NPC stuff like villages, capital ships (with their own crews), people you can trade, fight and otherwise interact with.

    Improved drone control (I think someone made a mod for this).

    More complex and hostile ecosystem (more than just wolves and sabroids).

    Greater degree of automation. Like being able to set up autonomous mining operations, cargo ships that can travel between stations, dock, and load/unload cargo.


    Probably not feasible. But in general I'd like to just fill up the game so it doesn't feel like you're the only human in the solar system.
     
  6. ShadedMJ Apprentice Engineer

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    As much as I'd like automation, I wouldn't like this. There is already borderline not enough to do....
     
  7. halipatsui Senior Engineer

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    It is vurrently possible to make fully autonomous mining drones.

    It is possible to create cargo ships that move resources between places on their own.
     
  8. FlakMagnet Senior Engineer

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    Food? There are no plans anywhere I have seen or heard that food is considered. Personally..I think it's a very bad idea. It adds another nag bar and nothing else.

    Worldgen needs a serious re-think, mainly because every time you load a planet...the resources are always in the same place. We need a random modifier to planets, both in terms of ore placement....and in terms of terrain. You might be able to vary the vertical multiplier to change a feel....but you should also potentially vary the voxel materials to make the places feel different. Bascially.....I don;t want every world to be the same every time I play. I don;t want to know where to find a good base locatiopn with all the stuff I need without having to look. That's dull.

    EEM adds some interest to the world, but doens't address anything really in terms of world gen. It just makes better use of encounters and adds an increased layer of threat by having ships call for help.That is stuff that needs to be in vanilla. Badly.

    What I think the game also needs is procedural asteroid/planet/system generation. I imagine that's a hard thing to do in multiplayer....but it's something I would like to see at least considered.
     
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  9. Krougal Senior Engineer

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    1,012
    Yeah, food is a really mixed thing.
    It would add another logistics problem to solve (this is a pro not a con) - so food ships/stations/planetside farms - transport and storage of said. So there's more ship roles to fill, which is 1 of those things I think a lot of us survival players find lacking - reasons to build things. I know I'm beating a dead horse, but progression should give me a reason to build bigger and better things, not just some arbitrary requirements forced on me.
    The con is as FlakMagnet said, it just becomes another nag bar. SE clone (aka Empyrion) I feel like all I do is eat, and watch timers on food rotting, and shuffle food from fridge to fridge (canned food goes bad FFS) - it's just a chore. ME it isn't so bad, although it is more necessary there, as we don't have O2, H2 and power to worry about.
     
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  10. FlakMagnet Senior Engineer

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    1,551
    Rotting preserved food is just a poorly executed game mechanic. It should be possible to can/freeze dry food and have it last indefinitely. It should have reduced nourishment value potentially but it should be possible to stockpile food or you make ANY largescale building project impossible in single player worlds.

    I really want to enjoy survival play, as I see it as the actual game, where creative is just a playground to test ideas in. I just find it has become boring and I can't find reasons to play. The lack of variety and the predictability of the current survival challenge has a lot to do with that. I just hope Keen:

    a) Does something about this

    b) Makes it more challenging...not just more annoying/grindy

    c) Makes the world different every time you play

    As an example of (c) I would cite 'Getting Over It'. The game was the talk of the town for a few weeks. Twitch streams full of it, you tube vids....and everyone was desperate to play it. Then you beat it. It's already fading into obscurity and the endless slow death of Steam Sales. Why? Because once you beat it the challenge is gone. Sandbox games are my main 'interest' because they can avoid the stagnation of being 'beaten' ....but SE has too many non variable elements. Now that new features are pretty much finished with, and the game is being optimised and polished...that is becoming more obvious.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. Sarekh Senior Engineer

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    1,187
    Food on its own would be just another healthbar to manage, I agree completely. Using organic components not only as food but as a source for various things, like organic chemistry (engine fuel, composite materials, medical components, coating, colour, grease, textiles for seats, suits, etc., maybe even additional steps in refining and puryfying, being required as component or fuel in additional upgrade modules) - that could potentially beast up my survival experience.
     
  12. J.R. Ewing Trainee Engineer

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    66
    As Iam fine with food management, even with need to use toilet some time :-D to empty yourself, I totaly disagree with progress based on fight. Progress using own research is ok, I can live with that. Also I am living with random enemy space ships and stations. I can avoid them (ground bases and drons I have swithed off). But I don't like it. But I really don't like idea to have fight as a crucial part of survival. This is not 3D action or Cosmic Strategy game. I hope so.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. Levits Senior Engineer

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    2,122
    If the devs did it right, you wouldn't have to fight in order to advance your tech level.

    They should be splitting the tech field into two groups at least. One being Combat-based and the other being Civilian-based. Combat tech would be one field where some of the higher-tiered things must be fought for or involve combat in order to obtain a blueprint of an advanced piece of military hardware. The Civilian-based stuff though should be able to be obtained via trade or simple discovery; without combat.

    But for civilian advancement there still has to be a challenge to obtain some of the higher-tiered stuff. Natural obstacles and the like would be the challenge to overcome. Some planet or location with 10g's of gravity for instance or meteorites flying around.

    I figure, at least up to the most advanced stuff, simple research/material acquisition will provide for low-level blueprints and discovery of wrecks and other objects will provide the mid-level tech. <I would say that discovering the monolith unlocks FTL blocks ;)

    Considering how they showed off how one would acquire blueprints in the missions, I'm guessing that discovery is going to be their main route. Though I think that some advancements should come from researching or building off of some blueprints should be possible. I'd hate to have to find a blueprint for every single block in the game.

    Food though, that would be the only other addition that I'd go with for the characters survival (though I would not leave out environmental hazards). I would also tie it into any NPC mechanic in that you have to keep your NPC people fed AND/or (just because I think it would be a nice alternative/choice) provide robot NPC variants that rely on increased power consumption via a recharge station block that consumes constant power.
     
  14. damoran Junior Engineer

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    608
    A friend got me Astroneer over the holidays and I've been having a blast with it. It's rather simplistic and cartoony but the mechanics of air supply, power and research really keep me going for hours on end. I think SE might benefit from seeking a similar model for its survival gameplay.

    The concept of the air supply and tethers is pretty neat. essentially your suit holds a VERY short supply of air, maybe a few minutes worth in game when you are not connected to your bases air supply. The solution is to craft these tethers that act as an air hose but also illuminate and mark the path home. This dynamic really made me plan out my moves and also makes the world seem a lot larger and foreboding considering you struggle to go a few hundred feet from base. Later on you can make additional tanks to extend your independent air supply but the trade-off is they take up precious space on your backpack. Once I built a rover, my reliable air supply became mobile but the rover is heavily dependant on power to keep it moving.

    For power, they have solar, wind and generators. One take-away from Astroneers I would suggest for SE, the "small" generator that works off of organic matter, basically you throw plant matter in there and it makes power. SE needs something in between solar and reactors for survival on planets as uranium is difficult to come by initially and the sun isn't always shining. I remember waiting out nights in SE because of lack of power which is really dull.

    I also liked the idea of the mineral extractor; put all your rock and throw away soil into the extractor and over time you get small amounts of the different ores of all rarities.

    I'm at a stage now where I'm building a shuttle to get off planet. This requires a mixture of resources that I must refine to make fuel for the shuttle. I thought this was rather well done and it really gave me something to collect and strive for that felt more substantial than SE's, find ice and wait.

    They also have caves with resources that add another level of exploration, with rarer resources found deep underground.

    The technology tiers are differentiated by size and research cost to unlock them. I'm still on the fence about the research system ( I don't hate it but it does require a lot of work on my part walking the data samples back to the research lab structure which is tedious and annoying). At tier one you still have plenty of options for everything you need. As you research better tech it requires a much larger footprint but produces resources much more efficiently. I like this dynamic a lot and think it would play to the building aspect of SE very well.

    For environmental hazards you've got sandstorms that throw lethal debris at you if you're caught in the open. In the caves, some alien plants will shoot toxic gas at you or explode in a cloud of gas when you touch them. Again, I think SE should stick to these kinds of hazards over dogs and other inappropriate creatures.

    I guess for me it's more that the resources you search for are all very useful and precious, you don't want to leave a single piece behind. Refining the resources at base is rather quick so you don't spend a lot of time waiting on a timer to tick down (except for research) the time is spent exploring, extracting and transporting the resources back to base. Which to me is really engaging.

    Just a thought
     
  15. FoolishOwl Junior Engineer

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    522
    It's a general ailment in gaming: an over-reliance on combat to provide challenge.

    Space Engineers ought to present *engineering* challenges, of which combat should only be a subset. Ideally, an optional subset.
     
  16. J.R. Ewing Trainee Engineer

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    66
    As I said I dont like to rely on combat, I ment it strictly as optional. I agree with FoolishOwl.

    I play only surival, I am using creative only for desinging huge partial blueprints (hundred meters long conveyors for use in shafts for example). Every complete thing I have build in survival, even 20 km long self building space lift. I am pretty satisfied with current survival.

    My current game tuned with Sparse resources and Deep ore (hard mode) addons is really chalanging, even without enemies. I used parachute deployed starting module. so I was not able to choose landing site near ice source. In total, you have very limited resources on start (material for Assembler, Reffinery, 4 solar pannels and battery, few light armorr blocks from starting module and med bay), no spots on surface to find, where ore is, ore as deep, that small grid detector nor your drill is unable to find it, on starting earth like plannet you can find only Iron, Nickel, Cobbalt - can be found >300m deep, Silicon and Magnesium and to the closest ice source is 15 km. After tens of hours of game play I send remote controll device to orbit to find out, that on asteroids as far as I have been is only iron and silver. I have found no ice, nothing else. I must every ice mine on the plannet, move it 15 km to the ground base and then to the orbit. For Uranium, gold I have to reach and explore other planets, platinum is to be found only on alien plannet at deeps >600m. There defineteley no need to combat to make this game challenging.
     
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  17. Sixela963 Trainee Engineer

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    16
    Sure, you can make the game challenging, but the devs also need to be careful not to make it frustrating. (also, how do you even get to alien planet? don't you need platinum for a jump drive?)
    With the way you described it, it amost sounds like getting any nugget becomes a chore, taking way too long... Is it?
     
  18. halipatsui Senior Engineer

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    1,253

    You can get out of atmosphere with hydrogen engines and turn them off after takinh course towards planet at full speed
     
  19. Sixela963 Trainee Engineer

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    But doesn't it take forever and a half at 100m/s?
     
  20. Levits Senior Engineer

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    From any one of the planets to their nearest moon it takes maybe an hour... or maybe 2 hours to reach the moon... or 3 or 4. It's been a while since I last played but it definitely isn't something you can do in 30 minutes without a jump drive. With a jump-drive, easy 30 minutes to reach the nearest moon from a planets surface or less if you can gauge the distance right. From one planet to another, probably an hour or more if multiple jumps are required. <depends on your ships size and jump drive count.

    From one planet to another without jump drives... eh... probably 5 or more hours if not a whole friggin' day. That's why I'd say (if you have to "find" the blueprint for the jump drive) it should be unlocked via finding the monolith or simply obtaining it via discovery (wrecks/debris/boarding and grinding NPC ships) or safer alternative via NPC trade.
     
  21. J.R. Ewing Trainee Engineer

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    66
    Hell yea, very long. And I don't mention about settings welding/grinding speed to realistic and only 3x inventory size which dramaticly reducing amount of material I can send to orbit in one haul (in the same cost of hydrogen).

    And under those conditions you are forced to make smart solutions, you are limited by resources as same as invnetory size. You must using full or at least partial automation. Cargo haulers that can make round trip automaticaly. Welder / grinder drons, which have much larget inventory and can weld more without need to resuply.

    Spend time and resources for building these

    [​IMG]
    or build large array like this (pannels can be build/add remotly using projector and welding drone) because you fotrunately land near equator?
    [​IMG]

    Will you dig deeply (iron start at least 50m deep, other resources even deeper) using mobile drillers (with weels cant be automated), flying drillers (heavy and consume a lot of energy, you have no uranium at all - only from randomly falling unknown signals), build huge mining platforms like this (after building it and dig a hole I have found, that I have miss the ore at all)

    [​IMG]
    or build very energy effective mining platform
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Of course, with big-hole digger, but this device can be used only once a time.
    [​IMG]

    Honestly, Iam turning off wolves, which are really annoying at the start and force you to make first an ammo, and make this need on the top of priorities. I am playing without sound most of the time and have enough problems how to build large constructions without any hydrogen at start. I don't want to be all the time at guard, if there is any wolf comming to me. In the real world situation you, of course, choose for living a location withou natural danger, go away from wolf teritories. But this is not possible in the game, you can't avoid them without switching off.

    And yes, Iam counting with a very long lasting way to the distant planets (few thousands km in solar system scenario). In my previous survival game, where I have start with yellow start ship in workshop "real solar system" scenario I have spent on the way to the nearest planet (1700km) more than two weeks at speed 100m/s - with stops near asteroids for resources. Building a ship during that fly. In my current scenario I am using 200m/s speed mod.

    Some players really don't need fight to have this game challanging and entertaning for hundreds of hours playing time. Of course Iam not against, if this game will have some of those features as optional. I undestand tech tree feature may lead to excelent community created survival scenarios, where you'll have to fight for progress. 3D action style fight (boarding ships, discovery wrackage, ruins, allien buildings) or real-time strategy games (build a combat ship or controll a fleet). But I hope building only option, which I like, will still remains.
     
  22. 333546323 Apprentice Engineer

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    i think something like osiris new dawn where you start off with very little and you have to travel to actually "start up" or get things going properly but eevn when you have things settled you dont have the resources for a ship so you have to explore (on foot or with a rover(making rovers usefull)) but wait you cant carry so much...build up the rover....wait theres a monster...he attacked your rover...ect also the reason for a ship? theirs a distress signal and when you get there you find out everyone's dead and theres something els bigger out there.
     
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