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Suspension wheels K.I.S.S. settings goodbye.

Discussion in 'General' started by Radma Kanow, Nov 30, 2015.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. RIPerKilla Apprentice Engineer

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    140
    Just noticed this link. I wonder who wrote this page? Everything below Friction line is complete bull.. well.. wrong thing.

    Never had experience with wikies, but it definitely needs rewriting.

    Uh. When i'll come home i'll start writing my full guide for this forum.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. blizzerd Apprentice Engineer

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    478
    99% of grievances would be solved by adding some presets you can pick from
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. Radma Kanow Apprentice Engineer

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    Guys,

    thanks for the input, links, vids and advice. When I get home, I'll try tweaking my truck to see what works.

    @RIPerKilla and your vid,
    that's exactly what I want to achieve. Using settings from other vids didn't work as intended. Anyway - today's evening I'll work a bit with my design and (hopefully) get some results.

    Cheers.
     
  4. Shabazza Junior Engineer

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    687
    I did. With informations from this vid here.


    I had good expierience with those settings described in the video.
    But feel free to rework it, if the information is incorrect.
    It's better to have it in the wiki than in the forum, as the wiki is persistent, while a thread can easily get lost if not pinned.
     
  5. RIPerKilla Apprentice Engineer

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    140
    @Shabazza, off-road setup in his video is too stiff and does almost no absortion of surface bumpness. Also he's completely wrong about Offset setting.
    Shock absorber has nothing to do with "contracting", because it works both ways. That's first.

    Second is, shock absorbtion is a side effect of damping "force" 's gist: damping force is the force that, basically, prevents suspension from moving. That's all. If there's no damping, spring will oscillate freely. If there's too much damping, only excessive and continious force applied to a wheel will be able to move suspension significantly.
    In reality dampeners are based on friction in viscous oil.

    This at all should go vice versa. On flat surface like racing circuit you need more damping - the stiffer suspension is, the better. But on off-road you need just enough damping to prevent oscillating and.. "suspension breakdown", dunno how this term will be in english.

    Yes, it's a spring, and it's "resetting" suspension to it's original position.
    But it's important to understand, that Main thing is that it's a "force", pushing suspension down. So ground clearance is dependant only on the amount of Strength the spring has. If Strength is too low, it will be unable to overcome rover's mass and thus lift it above the ground. If force is excessive, wheel will be pressed to it's lower position, and there will be no "suspension travel" downwards.
    The amount of Strength you need - is just as much as enough to lift the car for 2/3 of overall suspension travel. Thus wheel will be able to travel 1/3 down and 2/3 up.

    From everything stated above I think is obvious that such terms as "Fast" or "Slow" are not applicable to the objective reality. Strength should be set depending on car mass and maybe it's goals, not the surface.


    HERE GOES THE THING THAT COMPLETELY DIFFERS SE SUSPENSION FROM REAL ONE: HEIGHT OFFSET
    No. No, no, no. Stahp this. It's completely wrong.
    First. As I already said, the only thing that determines ground clearance is Strength.
    Second. Suspension in Space Engineers is not just a fancy block meant to roll rovers and cause butthurt to innocent people. Suspension is multi-purposal engineering part. It can be used in different ways and has different applications. See Space Elevators topic for example.

    Keeping that in mind, see the GIST OF HEIGHT OFFSET:
    It's just the bloody point where wheel tends to stay. No more, no less. As stated above, SE Suspension is multi-purposal block. It can be placed in different ways, even up side down, and it will still work as intended. And this parameter is just for that.
    "STRENGTH FORCE" IS APPLIED BOTH WAYS - UP AND DOWN TOWARDS THE POINT YOU SET WITH HEIGHT OFFSET.


    So, according to all above, this is just completely wrong.

    Edit. Seems wiki page interprets w4stedspace's guide wrong.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2015
    • Informative Informative x 3
    • Agree Agree x 2
  6. Shabazza Junior Engineer

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    687
    Do your explanations describe a real-world suspension or does it reflect the actual SE implementation?
    If the latter:
    Please go ahead and update the wiki.
    Many players are struggling with the suspension settings and need some reliable source of information about it.
    If you don't want to register to the wiki, you can PM me a better text and I'll update the wiki page.
    But I think you better should take the credits for it yourself then. ;)
     
  7. RIPerKilla Apprentice Engineer

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    140
    It describes both in a simplistic manner. Moreover all this is confirmed by my experiments. SE suspension is a simplified model of real one. It has bugs, it has it's tiny bit of multi-purposal mechanics, but Sir Isaac Newton is still the deadliest S.O.B. in space. I mean, suspension still obeys physics laws.

    I'll try to see what can be done with wiki tomorrow, I'll start getting together my rover guide, and also will look into it.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  8. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    3,069
    I think many people run into problems because of the speeds they like to travel at. The same people that put a kabillion thrusters and gyros on their giant spacecraft so that they will perform like fighters are the same people that want to drive their 200000 kg "rover" at 300 kph. If you tweak your suspension for an hour and you still skid, slip and flip, you're probably going to fast.

    In SE you don't build "cars" and "trucks". You build spacecraft. The vehicles you see on the street outside your window were not made with steel armor blocks. These things we make in SE are heavy. If you want fast and nimble you need to build low, long and wide. If you build vehicles that resemble vehicles that currently exist they're probably going to be four times heavier and you might not know that but the physics engine will.

    Yes, suspension setting is tricky, but there is no setting for "driving ability".
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
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  9. kittle Senior Engineer

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    1,086
    suspension settings are all nice and good, but there are 2 other aspects I always struggle with:
    1) steering. I can park my RL car in a parking space with minimal fuss, but to try and do the same with a vehicle made in SE, and I spend 2x the time fixing all the blocks I crashed into.

    2) responsiveness. From a full stop, the time between when I press W and when the vehicle actually moves seems to be dependent on a random number generator -- which causes problems for #1 if you are trying to maneuver. Same goes for stopping. I have yet to see the spacebar or 'P' key cause the wheels to lock and skid.
     
  10. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    3,069
    See what I mean?
     
  11. Jas Apprentice Engineer

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    this is cuz the value are inverted, set low to have high force and viceversa ... the wiki is right or my brain is wrong, or my english comprension is weak (high probable), but if i set force too high in a lake for example my rover begin to bounce untill flip and crash; i see the question like this: dumping is the counter force in the dumping force, the compression, while the force is the damper release force to reset the damper to its original position low in the ground ... am i wrong?
     
  12. RIPerKilla Apprentice Engineer

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    140
    @Jas, /0\ i wrote all about this, what can be missunderstood? Right now wiki is wrong, cause it's data was based on wrong guide.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2015
    • Funny Funny x 1
  13. RIPerKilla Apprentice Engineer

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    140
    • Like Like x 1
  14. AccidentalDisassembly Trainee Engineer

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    35
    I think many of you are missing the point: the fact that we need a multi-part guide a few pages long to understand how to achieve decent results from suspension settings, applicable to just one block among many in a computer game whose purpose is fun and entertainment, is, in and of itself, the problem. Make the settings possible to tweak, sure, and if you really get a kick out of precisely tuning your suspension, you still can - but use the computer to do what it does best: calculate stuff, automate stuff, etc. When you build a vehicle of any weight with any number of wheels, and even when you change the weight of the vehicle on the fly, it should be equally possible to simply stick some wheels on your crazy contraption and have it work.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
  15. Dreokor Senior Engineer

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    1,606
    If you could save settings and save/load presets for suspensions, It would certainly help.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  16. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    3,069
    Fun and entertainment may be the purpose of the game, but you will have trouble defining either as both are subjective. Right here in this thread you have some people that think manual precision tweaking is fun and entertaining and others that don't. I believe Keen's philosophy is that the game is primarily about engineering, the "fun" and "entertainment" comes from engineering, and for purposes of wheel suspension that means precise tuning. Anyone that believes otherwise should make or wait for a mod.
    If you're talking cockpit toolbar settings for "smooth" terrain and "rough" terrain and "slippery", then hell yes.
     
  17. AccidentalDisassembly Trainee Engineer

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    35
    That's exactly what I'm talking about too, except the game would need to calculate some appropriate values according to the mass of the vehicle and how many wheels are involved. Assuming that's how we interpret "presets."

    The thing with your statement - I agree in general terms, sure, but what do you or the rest of us mean by "engineering?" Certainly nothing like what many real-life engineers do, because that would be god-awful boring and a lot of work. I think that neither Keen nor the majority of the players of the game read "engineering" to mean the studied development of every single individual part of a whole, calculation and tuning of individual attributes like strength/suspension travel/whatever (or any properties of other blocks), for most gamers most of the time. I feel pretty confident in saying that most understand "engineering" in this context to mean something more like "designing and building (and modifying the properties of, to a certain extent) some crazy contraptions that accomplish some purpose." (Mining or transport or combat or what have you.) The necessity of figuring out the mechanics of wheels gets in the way of that kind of gameplay in a very annoying way. But, again, I'm not saying that it shouldn't be possible to tweak every property of everything, if the people who find that enjoyable want to - just that, right now, it is a practical necessity to spend too much time doing exactly that if you want your contraptions to do what you designed them to do.

    It's not a problem to allow people to get into that kind of minutiae, but I am arguing that it is inherently problematic to force them to in a game like Space Engineers - I mean to say even when explicitly taking into account the fact that the game has to do with "engineering" - but a much broader definition of engineering than the one regularly experienced by the woman spending hours and hours designing the properties of the bearings for one part of a bricklaying machine, if you see what I mean.
     
  18. Stardriver907 Master Engineer

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    3,069
    In a game like Space Engineers, it should be expected. You get the same level of precision with pistons and rotors. Why should wheel suspensions be any different. None of those things have a default purpose. A default setting for wheel suspension might just work out great for you and might force everyone else to do precision tuning because that default sucks. Better to just force everyone right out of the gate and have them learn something. This is not the kind of game where everything gets accomplished in one step. Only real problem with wheel suspension is that settings have never been properly explained. If it was more clear what they did people would go, "OK bouncing too much. This needs to be lower and this needs to be higher. Done." You get a "mouse tip" when hovering over dampening. You get nothing when hovering over strength. I still don't know what that means.
     
  19. RIPerKilla Apprentice Engineer

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    140
    After reading the whole topic and maybe watching vids? How?

    Edit:
    I know it's gone kinda off topic, but I cant confirm my e-mail address. Dunno, wiki just sends me nothing.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2015
  20. Roggah Trainee Engineer

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    5
    @RIPerKilla I understand that you starting to get tired and your guide looks great.. I have 1 question..
    When I change the suspension and height offset the sliders gets grayed out .. When I checking some youtube videos they can move the sliders freely.. why is that? is there any settings that I can change so they wont get grayed out or what? as fast as I change the suspension and height the vehicle jumps up in the sky and crashes... I am new to SE .. I have searched on steam forum and on google for the answer but no find.. and when I add a landing gear and locks it I think the landing gear broke when I changed the settings on the suspension
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2016
  21. StuffYouFear Apprentice Engineer

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    416
    I disagreed with op, and providing feedback so he wont think I was some flyby downvoter. I doubt many will agree with me but I have two arguments against his proposal.

    I am a mechanic in real life, so while I dont design these systems I had to learn how they work in order to fix their issues. The current setup is fairly well done, and honestly quite simplistic compared to real world versions. Id honestly enjoy more options but whats in now seems just right for ease of use vs customization.

    My second argument would be if settings got defualted to diffrent "levels" done by some preprogramed algorithm within the game, your creation is at the mercy of your ability to conform to what they consider a reasonable build, to fit within their formulas.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  22. PLPM Junior Engineer

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    841
    *Sigh*

    Could you show me a screenshot, or do you have a workshop link? I feel I can help you. A frontal screenshot would be quite helpful.
     
  23. REDSHEILD Junior Engineer

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    Guys you know this thread is from six months ago right?
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
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  24. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    4,797
    Everyone blames the suspension settings. But it's usually too much mass, too high of a center of gravity, and going to fast. Unlike prefab'ed vehicles in other games, you can easily create a vehicle that runs well beyond reasonable safety factors and it will still work pretty decently, until you get to some sort of stress point and something catastrophic happens.

    Drive slower, don't take turns too quickly, avoid jumping unless you're reasonably sure that your vehicle will survive, don't overload your vehicle simply because it'll support that much mass standing still.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  25. FlakMagnet Senior Engineer

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    1,551
    LOL ... got to love the 'disagree' on Redsheild's post. This thread was active 6 months ago ... NO....er...yes.

    Usually when I crash a buggy...it's my fault. The only thing I think MUST get fixed is the lack of handbrake, and the dubious friction effects, especially sideways.

    It's a lot simpler to setup the game than it was to setup the suspension on my bike, with air assistance, spring rates, compression and rebound damping as well as spring preload. Setting up a shock to suit the weight of machine and rider is a labour of love...but it's great when it's done right.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  26. PLPM Junior Engineer

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    841
    Nope, not everyone "knew" such thing :woot: , So I had to disagree :p
     
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  27. REDSHEILD Junior Engineer

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    888
    That's not really how facts work.

    ¯\_(-_-)_/¯
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  28. PLPM Junior Engineer

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    841
    I´m not arguing against the fact, I´m just giving a negative answer to the question you made.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  29. Radma Kanow Apprentice Engineer

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    326
    @PLPM
    Sadly I don't have a screen nor workshop link to share as some time ago my OS died and I had to reinstall it without making a backup of my saves. Which came to me after I formatted my drive...

    Anyway,thanks for the offer. I somehow learned how to make wheeled vehicles and tweak suspension settings to my liking. Original idea which started this topic - well, lets say everyone has that derp idea once in a while. I totally forgot what I wrote and I'm not even reading it again :p.

    As for vehicles with wheels - I found that limiting max speed to around 40 km/h does wonders... It's sufficient for my designs.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  30. Phoera Senior Engineer

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    1,713
    i did not read full topic, but i have an offer to thread starter.

    if you can provide me formula for new slader(slader positions to old sliders), i will make mod for his wish.
     
    • Like Like x 1
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