Welcome to Keen Software House Forums! Log in or Sign up to interact with the KSH community.
  1. You are currently browsing our forum as a guest. Create your own forum account to access all forum functionality.

The Decorative Pack (Paid DLC) Is BS. . .

Discussion in 'General' started by EGWolfwood, Apr 9, 2019.

Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. EGWolfwood Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    12
    I don't understand why Keen is putting new blocks and functions behind the pay wall by making it paid DLC.
    Blocks & functions should be free updates to all, or what then is the point of the open build & share system. Not everyone has money to through at Keen every time they come up with new stuff. For them to put better cockpits & functional LCD options that are really core blocks & functions that will effect nearly every workshop build in a paid DLC is going to put a huge dent if not kill entirely the free build/share dynamic that is a huge part of what makes Space Engineers so much fun for players & builders alike.

    Personally I'd rather wait & find free mods on the workshop then have to pay for paid DLC that should have been a free update in the first place. If Keen is just going to become the next EA where core blocks & functions are all paid DLC, I can see a lot if not nearly all of the player base moving on.

    As a builder I don't like the idea that players & builders alike won't be able to enjoy my builds because they can't afford or like me don't agree with being nickled & dimned for every new block & function through paid DLC.

    I for one won't help justify Keen bilking everyone for more money for blocks & functions that should have been free updates as they have always been. . .

    Cockpits and display functions are not decorative. They are necessary blocks & functions that should be included in the price of the game. . .

    This isn't about wanting or not wanting to support the devs. It's about the fact that if there are sets of blocks and/or functions in the vanilla in-game block/function set that are only available through paid DLC that not everyone will be able or willing to spend more money on, because of this the open build & share system will no longer be so open, and as a builder I don't like the idea that there would be players & builders alike that won't be able to enjoy my builds without being forced to pay extra. So the core of what I'm saying is that new blocks & functions shouldn't be paid DLC, instead paid DLC should be limited to non-block & non-function items such as skins for the space suit, tools, and those sort of things. Not blocks or there functions. . .
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 5
  2. mojomann71 Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,672
    Is no different than mods really. There are plenty of builds out there that you do not have the mod the build will not work. Yes, the mods are free (something Steam was going to try to have people pay for btw) but 3.99 in the big scheme of things is nothing.
    Plus there is really only one functioning block in the pack (cockpit) the others are decorative, yes they have storage in them but no connectors to add to main storage so those without the DLC really are not missing much. And tbh the one functional block isn't all that attractive. :)
     
    • Agree Agree x 6
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  3. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    4,704
    DLC makes a bigger difference in multiplayer and on servers. Mods are great. Everything Keen has released as DLC you can find an alternate free MOD for in the workshop. But good luck on finding a server running those mods. As a $4 pack, I can bring some of this stuff with me. I definitely think that Keen has to think through their implementation a little better. But their priorities are in the right place: no pay-to-win DLC.

    It's not like they are charging $20 for an overpowered Death-Ray that vaporizes vanilla ships.

    DLC is a very touchy subject. Especially after grubby Bethesda and EA implementations of it.

    Keen gave me a toilet block for $4. I'm not going to be mad at it. However the rumor has it they'll be charging $20 for the toilet paper dispenser in future DLC.
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  4. hippybaker Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    22
    Not doing it.
    Nope.

    ...Maybe someday if I find I have 100 pairs of Cow Gloves I'll trade 'em in...

    But that's it.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. jhorro Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    63
    So this was it with the vanilla blocks, so I have to start using mods. I bought the game 2014 in early access, supported and now I have to pay again. I play only single player and there is nothing to play with. Single player - building a ship and going around with it and that is it. Empty space, paid blocks, empty game.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  6. mojomann71 Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,672
    @jhorro you do not have to buy the blocks, they are not twisting your arm to buy it, plus sounds like you do not like playing the game anymore anyway...why gripe? :)
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
  7. jhorro Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    63
    I was waiting for keen to ad contents and finish the game. Well they finish the game and the contents from now on will be paid. A lesson for me, never again to buy unfinish game.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. odizzido Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    669
    There are very few games that I will buy before they're done. Xenonauts 2 was one of them though. I really liked what they did with the first game and I wanted to fund a second. Maybe it won't be the game I want in the end, but I gave them money to try. That's what SE was too for you, and all you can do is look at past behaviour to decide if you want to gamble on it.

    I completely support not buying unfinished games though, even ones you're really interested in. It seems a lot of devs will take your money and kick you in the face, but not all of them. The previous game I picked up unfinished to support development was dreamfall: chapters. The game wasn't as good as I had hoped(I loved the last one) but it was still good and the devs didn't try to dick you around. I am glad I supported the project and I would support projects from them in the future.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2019
  9. mojomann71 Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,672
    @jhorro I doubt All future content will be paid. At the end of the day Keen is a business, the object of ANY business is to make $.
     
  10. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,934
    Thing about the new decorative blocks is that all of them are blocks that only half (or maybe less) of the community wants. I and others have complained about the absence of a vanilla toilet block for years, only to be shouted down by other players that said "why have a toilet block if you don't have to use it?" They didn't want it in the game. At all. Keen saw that some people really, really wanted the block and others really, really didn't. So they thought, "Would the people that really, really want it pay for it?" The answer seems to be yes, and people that didn't want it don't have to have it.

    Except, now that the block is available everyone seems to want it, and they want it free.

    You know what, I got a "Hydrogen Engine" clogging up my G menu now that I would not have paid for. Everyone that wants a free toilet block should have asked for one like I did and maybe it would have been free like the hydrogen engine that everyone screamed had to be in the game.

    The real Bullshit is not having supported having these blocks in the game. There are a whole bunch more decorative blocks that have no real play value that, nonetheless, would make the game more playable in many ways. Many of these blocks have been proposed to Keen and rejected by players as "a waste of Keen's time." So don't be pissed if they ended up being for sale because people that want them will pay and people that don't want to pay really don't want the blocks. I would say that having players put their money where their mouths are when it comes to blocks and/or features that might otherwise jeopardize overall sales is a good way to find out if a controversial decision is a good or bad one. If no one was buying these blocks that would be a clear indication that no one wants them. This may, in fact, add weight to the argument that the game needs more decorative blocks so we might see more free ones.

    In addition, I have no doubts that what I paid for today will be free at some point. That's just how it goes. I paid six dollars for the game and another four dollars for DLC and still paid half the list price. I don't believe I have any grounds to complain.

    Everyone else? Feel free ;)
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  11. EGWolfwood Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    12
    ========================================================================================================
    Quoted from: mojomann71
    "Is no different than mods really. There are plenty of builds out there that you do not have the mod the build will not work. Yes, the mods are free (something Steam was going to try to have people pay for btw) but 3.99 in the big scheme of things is nothing.
    Plus there is really only one functioning block in the pack (cockpit) the others are decorative, yes they have storage in them but no connectors to add to main storage so those without the DLC really are not missing much. And tbh the one functional block isn't all that attractive. :)"
    ========================================================================================================

    Paid DLC is very much different from mods in that mods on the workshop are 100% free & Paid DLC of course isn't. If you find something on the workshop that you want to use or have fun playing with, and it uses workshop mods, it's no big deal because the mods are free to subscribe to and use. However if you find something on the workshop that you like and it uses paid DLC you would have to buy the DLC to use it.

    That may not sound like a big deal to some, but think about the growing number of builders that add as much detail to there builds inside & out as they can. Such as armories, kitchens, & even bathrooms. If you don't fork out the cash for that DLC you can't use any build that contains the DLC blocks. Even if you just look at the cockpit, a lot of people have been waiting for Keen to add a more open view cockpit to the game for years. So there will be a lot of builds that will make use of that new cockpit, if they are willing to pay more to have it that is. Then all the builds that use that new cockpit will be useless to anyone that isn't willing to also pay more for the privilege of having access to that DLC.

    The point is that putting ANY blocks behind the paid DLC wall is wrong, because there is no block that is so nu-inportant that it won't cause the same issue. We have always enjoyed a FREE & open build & share system where anyone can build and/or enjoy anything that Space Engineers had to offer, to now start making what should have been a free update into a paid DLC is a slap in the face to all players & builders alike.

    Paid DLC will cripple if not completely kill the Space Engineers we all have come to know & love. . .
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 3
    • Agree Agree x 1
  12. mojomann71 Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,672
    @EGWolfwood You expect Keen to just pay their workers nothing to provide you and others that feel entitled to stuff for free? Major complaint is Keen doesnt have enough content, they make content, they have to pay their workers so their workers can pay their bills and so the company can make a profit and you get upset over 4 bucks (US)....get over it. Again it does not effect gameplay if you do not get it. The storage everyone is in an "uproar" over does not even have connectors to tie it into any other available containers.

    You want free continue to use mods.
    (Even though Steam at one point was going to make everyone pay to use mods, and who knows they may do it again in the future so brace yourself.)
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  13. odizzido Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    669
    I don't mind cosmetic blocks being DLC. The cockpit, if unusable by not-haves in multiplayer, could be a pain in the ass for everyone though, including those who have purchased it. Not being able to build the new cockpit because your teammate cannot use it? yuck.

    I just hope keen doesn't make 50 DLC packs like some other companies. It's a big reason why I never picked up cities skylines. So much garbage to sift through and the whole game(so far) is like 200 dollars or something. No thanks.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  14. mojomann71 Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,672
    There are worse things in the world to be upset over.

    I need to remind myself that. :)
     
  15. Stardriver907 Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,934
    Buddy, you just described every ship I have ever built since day one of this game. I use mods. Lots of them. Most of my ships are 80% or better mods. Hence, they're not on the Workshop. That's not my thing, anyway. I don't make ships to put on the Workshop. I don't use ships from the Workshop. There's nothing wrong with them. Many of them look great and probably work great as well. I just prefer making my own stuff my way.

    This is the main reason most builds in the Workshop are Pure Vanilla. We have been living in a dual world the moment mods became a thing. I'm guessing that people that make stuff for the Workshop have already made the decision about whether or not to use the new blocks, and they probably won't use them. Honestly, the new cockpit look cool, but only for certain types of ships. It's not going to completely replace either of the standard cockpits. If you are making a ship that must have the new cockpit, people that want that ship will understand that they will have to have the cockpit and will be provided the opportunity when they subscribe. After all, the person making the blueprint had to shell out the bucks as well.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  16. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

    Messages:
    4,704
    A river of your tears... a river... meanwhile those with $4 will happily support the game and the developers' paychecks to bring in new content that's free for everyone. You can thank those of us who PAY rather than complain about the big, bad DLC monsters.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
  17. FoolishOwl Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    507
    A lot of the ranting goes on as if there weren't decades of experience with interactions between DLC and mod-making communities. Common practice for popular mods in many games: create a "vanilla" version, and a version that requires the DLC.

    Even more importantly, there are over 100,000 blueprints for ships on the Steam Workshop, prior to the release of the DLC. There's no shortage of ships you can download that don't feature the new cockpit, or any of the other new blocks.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  18. chrisb Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,457
    I bought the dec blocks, not sure why, but I did. On the whole they're pretty good.

    The screens are a big plus for the game, don't have to use mods now.
    Other than that, SE is still not much of a starter for me nowadays. Can't say as I miss it, but it's nice to pop back into every now and then.
    Game doesn't work correctly when your far out, but there again, it never did. It's better than it was, but not fixed. I'm '14.** ls' out, not sure what that is km wise, but its a fair distance.
     
  19. VigotheDudepathian Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    50
    If 4$ keeps keen developing games take my 4$. I have bought something like 8 copies of this game and only 1 4 pack. Support good devs . They need money to make games and work. It's common sense.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  20. Spets Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,209
    Just in case nobody told you already, the display functions is on the base game. I'm only disappointed about the cockpit, that should be in the base game too. The rest are cosmetic blocks that I personally never asked for it. I prefer functional, mechanical blocks, new game features, etc.
     
  21. chrisb Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,457
    I think most all players understand the displays are part of the game and the dec blocks are seperate. I like the fact KSH are still adding to the vanilla game, it helps players build better ships, because vanilla ships are better for the player and indeed game.

    The introduction of the dec blocks are done in a good way, keep money coming in whilst adding those vanilla features and also trying to sort out some bugs that still remain after so long. There are other things I would buy, if it means the game keeps getting badly needed attention.
     
  22. Malware Master Engineer

    Messages:
    9,510
    OP seemed to be of the impression that it was part of the DLC
     
  23. Thrak Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    535
    Confusion is understandable. Announcing both these at the same time was an... interesting... communication decision.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  24. mojomann71 Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,672
    Supporting doesn't mean playing.

    I mean I could say my kid was born in 1998 I bought him food once so I have supported him the past 21 years on that one meal..:)

    Olive Garden gives you free breadsticks...but you have to pay for your meals and drinks.. Should we all pounce on Olive Garden and start demanding meals be free also, I mean cmon they been giving us free breadsticks for years...
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
  25. chrisb Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,457
    He must have missed the memo then.

    I play ETS2 a bit, in fact quite a bit. They have done this type of thing, release cheap little addons (if you like), that renew players interest in the game. Some of these can tend to be worhtless, as in skins etc. But they do also release extra maps and content at low prices too. I like that approach, I think we all have to compromise, doing it this way will help the game along. Not all players have to buy in, there are a few mod blocks that do a similar thing, they cost nothing.
    But for those of us that don't mind parting with extra to keep it moving along, don't mind. The game cost me very little way back, compared to other games, so they can put a little on if it means progress even further.

    I would like to see procedural planets introduced, more than willing to pay for that, plus a few other things. Quite a few to be fair.
     
  26. FoolishOwl Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    507
    Paradox Games does this with Stellaris: they release major patches at the same time as new DLC. Part of this is obviously practical, as the base game has to allow for the presence or absence of the features of the DLC, especially in multiplayer games. But, it makes it really confusing when you read discussions of the new content in the patches and the new content in the DLC, as most of the fans will buy the DLC right away and so the features of the patch and of the DLC are blurred together.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  27. Helaton Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    207
    I'm ok with the Decorative blocks DLC, I bought it. The only part I am in disagreeance on is that the new cockpit is a complete upgrade advantage over the existing vanilla cockpits (although there are some equivalent or better ones in the workshop from modders). That one I don't find is decorative, but very practical and think it would be nice to be available to other users (or deluxe pack users? but different story altogether).

    Arma 3 does this with their DLC (if you try to pick up a sniper rifle without the DLC, you can't use it, you get a prompt that you need the DLC).

    If an item is paid in a full access release, I just expect it to work bug free, be simple to use, well organized in the g menu and not have an impact on performance. I think it shouldn't appear in a non-owner's g menu, however if they interact with one that someone has placed/built, then they get a popup Arma 3 style saying they need the DLC.

    Space Engineers needs to be sustainable. I have a lot of fun and want it to stick around. I wouldn't be upset if they released a 'Shields' DLC or 'Industrial' DLC for bigger drills/disassembly pits etc, 'AI' DLC for missile/miners whatever. I'm somewhere north of 3000 hours and new stuff is welcome, even paid stuff.

    Just in case, if they release missions/scenarios, I'm expecting 1-2x the cost of hours of material from it (if $3, expecting 3-6 hours). If a scenario comes with a custom skybox, make it useable in custom missions. If a mission comes with custom ship/spawn ship types, bring those into the spawn ship menu as well.

    I'm expecting:

    $4.99 - Escape from Alcatrazoid
    • 4-6 Hours of scenario content (the Breakout > the Escape > the Big Heist/Revenge)
    • Can use the prison uniform/junk suit in regular game
    • The Prison environment can be used as a custom sandbox scenario environment (like red ship)
    • Prison bars door functional block, scanner/metal detector, armory and security camera decorative blocks available for use.
    • Jalopy escape ship available as a starter ship.
    $19.99 - Insurrection on Mars (Red Faction example, but hey)
    • ~20 hours of scenario content and story ( On the Job > Disaster > Retaliation > Headquarters Assault)
    • 15-20 new blocks (most decorative maybe, but some practical. At this price point I'd be open to non-decorative blocks or new functionality)
    • Uniforms of different factions (we could stand to use non-spacesuit uniforms)
    • A new skybox
    • Custom scenario/solar system/new moons for Phobos/Deimos that are massive (and oblong) in scale.
    • A few new space engineer handheld/ship weapons.
    • A new resource type or gameplay mechanic (like shields or lasers).
    • Can use the populated mars in a custom map.
    Sell it like legos. Legos sells more by selling a 'scenario' supported by all its blocks (lego sets) to get people interested in each of the little sets at different price points. Don't be afraid to bring in new mechanics that people complain about like 'shields' etc in the DLC. But do make it easy to preload scenario content into a custom sandbox. If people don't want to run the Insurrection scenario, they don't have to. As an additional upgrade, admins (whether single or multiplayer) can disable specific blocks (i.e. solar/batteries only, no jump drive etc, no shields.)

    The Decorative Blocks DLC is about the smallest size in content I would go for without being annoyed about feeling nickel and dimed. For the love that is all that is clang, do not sell individual sky boxes or individual anything.
     
  28. Spaceman Spiff Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,360
    I feel shorted because although KSH added a kitchen, they didn't include dining room tables in the Decorative Blocks DLC. And I agree with @Commander Rotal that we should have mirror images of the asymmetric DLC blocks.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  29. Thrak Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    535
    Especially if it's your first real content DLC.
     
  30. Ancolius Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    8
    From my understanding, from what is mentioned in the video is that players who own the DLC and those who don't own the DLC can use the same server meaning the new blocks are only locked in the building menu for people who don't own the DLC giving people who don't own the DLC the option to use those blocks regardless of owning them, how ever they can not build or repair the blocks just like the blocks you haven't learned in the skill-tree.

    This is exactly why they added the option of getting character skins and included the skill-tree and the so items could be locked from players who don't own it but can still be used when already build.

    On the side note, it also means you can download a ship that has those blocks included and don't need to remove them, if they get damaged its a problem though.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2019
Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.