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the future of voxels in gaming

Discussion in 'General' started by toxi, Apr 8, 2016.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Lt_Duckweed Apprentice Engineer

    Read up on Nano-Ram, and Intel Optane. We are not there yet, but in 10 years we will have ram speeds in a compact, non-volatile form.
  2. Teravisor Apprentice Engineer

    ... being stored at maximum for a month or two in disabled state. You forgot to add that part, didn't you?
  3. toxi Apprentice Engineer

    the kickstarter for research is military ... and they like fast computers. you are right that the desktopcomputer of the secretery next door is absurd high, compared with her needs ... thats why we see things like the raspPI on the market ... and we see that some that this low cost things are getting adopted more and more, because ist saves money.
    and of course .. 5 years ago, i could get a cup of tea after is started my postprocess calculations .. now its done in under one minute ... thats because my computer is now stronger but the controller-guy has a pretty hard time to understand why i need more power than the secretery ...and ... because we live in a world of "i want that toooo!" i am pretty sure the demand for more power will stay strong ... even 90% of the ppl dont need it. (to use the car analogy: do we need 200kW and 2tonns of steel to move 80kg humans?)

    you are also true that research is now carried by the industry ant that the research by universities falls back, because the nations put there money into things that are much more important .. like .. saving banks ... or supporting international acting deathcults.
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  4. Hakon102 Apprentice Engineer

    @toxi i fully agree with you. :D especially the last two parts, damn crazy World -.- !
    If you are right, that the demand for more power will stay strong, then we can be happy/fortunate. ;) But, I also noticed that the demand for High-End PC's in the industry and in the private sector is slightly declined in the last 3-4 Years. This is an other reason why i expect that the research slow down. But of course, this can change again :)
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  5. toxi Apprentice Engineer

    well the evolution of technology is a series of successful revolutions. the screw, the steam engine, the semiconductor ... a semiconductor is not some kind of high evolved steamengine ... its something different. the problem if we are talking about the future and the past is that jumps in history are interessting every one or two or three lifetimes .. between that its just tinkering around with the same old stuff .. and than boom! something new comes around and changes everything.

    humans work like this:
    everything that is here at the time that you are born is part of the natur.
    everything that came up till you are 25 is awsome and
    everything that comes up after you are 35 is strange, unnatural, stupid and dangerous.

    the idea that there will come something that we cant imagine is very very strange for the most of us and its the reason why the most important stuff ppl do, they do young, because they dont know whats impossible, or dont care.

    the need for more power is always there ... i cant think of an example where we say in technology: "mah. its good enough" we always try to get more ... even in technology like concrete (and this dates back to the romans) there is something new every now and then.

    the idea that we are in some kind at the end of history, that we are on the top, and there is nothing above us ... is something that we share with all humanity over the last thousends of years ... and something tells me, we are as wrong as they where ;)
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  6. Shinobisaru Trainee Engineer

    And that is of course the reason why big ideas and visions of the future were dreamt by young people in their 20s and not older people like .... Ford, Voltaire, Kant, Darwin .... oh, wait.

    Age has nothing to do with this - stubborness and knowledge does. A young peasant in the 20th century is just as much against modernity (mostly because taking a risk actually DID put the family at the border of existence) while you can trace down old educated man, dreaming of the impossible, quite far in history. (like Johannes Kepler who invisioned the dream of going to the moon in his 60s already in 1634).

    Historically, most things are explicitly done when people are older - most of the time simply, because getting to the point takes time and/or money. And you apparently underestimate the human nature and it's history of dreaming of the impossible, the fantastic, the unthinkable. There was and still exists the rather old idea of the ever improving human society. Historians today often only argue against this model, because you can not work objectively with such a vision in historiography and in other "Geisteswissenschaften" ... or the poor english word: "humanities".

    No - no, no and no again.

    We explicitely have periods which are heavilly DEFINED by their thinking of the glorious future, better than everything the present holds - new and unpredictable, but glorious and better: the industrial revolution, the socialist revolution, the french revolution, ...

    ... and those periods aren't defined this way only by people after those periods. Many of them show a strong vision of a new, never seen future in the actual participants and contemporary witnesses.

    Ever read a communist science fiction novel after the russian revolution ? Ever looked into the theories of modernity most europeans were forcfully carrying into other parts of the world BECAUSE they thougt that with this, humanity will go even further ? Ever heard of the enlightment movement ? Ever read the short article of Heinrich Heine ("surprisingly" ones again someone who is quite energetic and future thinking for a 50 year old man) he wrote after he saw for the first time (like most human beings that day) the first train driving between Orléan and Rouen ?

    If ... and only if ... there is something we can say the past was "wrong" about (this statements and approach in itself is quite unprofessional and unscientific), then that their vision of the future quite often couldn't be farther from the truth. We dreamt of flying cars - but didn't get them. We dreamt of the human race, living on the mars in an utopian society where race, gender and class are nonexistent - we got hightech machines in our pocket instead, which were a lot weaker and ... way bigger ... just a few decades ago. We dreamt of cities in the sky, in space, on the sea floor - instead we got the internet and with it a new kind of global connectivity and with it, it's cultural and social changes.

    Sorry for this rent - but you seriously should start to read a history book or two about the history of human vision of progress.
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2016
  7. Devon_v Senior Engineer

    For what it's worth, SE doesn't actually render voxels, it uses them as a data source and skins a dynamic polygon mesh over them. That's why asteroids aren't square like in Minecraft. The ship blocks are not voxels at all, just regular polygon meshes that happen to be cubic.

    Polygons are a really efficient way of rendering things in real time, so I don't expect them to ever go away. It's better to use different methods where they fit best. We'll probably see dynamically generated geometric primitives, for instance a sphere which adjusts how many triangles it is made of acording to its distance from the camera, rather than games entirely formed of voxels because it's more efficient. Morph targets and soft body physics could even be applied to deform the resulting shapes while all of the polygons themselves would remain procedural.
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2016
  8. Lt_Duckweed Apprentice Engineer

    What are you talking about?
    Nano-RAM is non volatile for 10 years at 300C, radiation proof (no hard faults), and shows no data degradation over 10 years at room temp and has density identical to standard RAM. As of June of this past year, 7 different fabs are rolling out experimental runs of it.
    Intel is deploying Optane PCIe NVME storage drives and Optane DIMMs later this year alongside Kabby Lake. It has 1000 times the R/W endurance of the best SSD's, and 1000 times lower latency, is byte addressable, and has several times the bandwidth.

    The key is that neither of them store charge, so there is no charge to leak away. They both really of physical properties of the material. Nano-RAM uses the resistance properties of CNT's, and Optane uses PCM.
  9. Hellothere! Apprentice Engineer

    I don't really think that Moore's law is at it's peak yet. That thing has been prophesied again and again during the last years and never come true. Once transistors became so small that they physically couldn't get any smaller people came up with the idea to organize them in three dimensions instead of next to each other on a palatine.

    A few months ago I heard talk of laying micro capillary filled with water through a chip that provide the power supply while also carrying off heat at a way higher rate than currently possible, thus allowing higher clocking rates without risk of damaging the chip.

    So far every time it looked like computers couldn't become any more powerful someone came up with a different idea to still make it work anyway.

    Somewhere during the next 75-200 years that will probably become unviable, but by then we might have quantum computers or god knows what, so Moore's law might still stay around.
    The point is, I don't count on Pc development peaking out anytime soon.
  10. toxi Apprentice Engineer

    you put a lot of very interessting things in there, thank you for this.

    if i make a statement about a group, i mean 2/3 of this group. not all. 1/6 is better and the rest is even worth ... the ppl the history remembers more or less never fit into the 2/3 of normals.
    my statement of age concerns the middle 2/3 ... not all. my grandmother did buy a computer with 90 years because her writingmachine did not work anymore ... 1 year later she browsed the internet. she was all her life able to adept to new things and for this, she will stay a idol for me. you can stay young at heart forever .. but you can also become pretty old in the head very soon ... a childhoodfriend started to say "everything was better in the past, oh those children these days ..." with 20, but the vast majority fitts in the quote above. i think it was douglas adams, but to be true: i am not sure.

    regarding the ppl you listed, you have to devide them into good craftsmen and visionaries. kant was no visionary. he just took a look to the world and defined parameters that would lead to harmony. ("zum ewigen frieden" is one of the best examples ... its horrible to read .. even if you read the orignial and know german) thats very pragmatic, but he was bound in his christian views.

    if you are a visionary, you have a great new idea ... but you have to have craftsmen who build it for you or you do it yourself. the second takes time. a lot. often a lifetime and you have to stay young at hearth. disney (beside the fact that he was a child of its own time) is one of those ppl who did stay young this way, followed ideas and ideals till his end. the problem of those ppl is that they fail in 90% of the time because adopting new ideas takes time. i think thats the reason we remember them as graybearded. from those in the more recent past, say einstein or turing, we know that the started pretty early to think about the stuff that makes them worth remembering ... but einstein was never able to reach his own goal ... but the reason he never stopped trying was he never become as old as most of ppl are if they hit 35.

    the same is true with communism ... it works well on paper, because communism works pretty well with ppl who work as if they where in a capitalistic system. as soon as they find out that industriousness isnt rewarded, it failes. china learnd that pretty well and found an interessting solution for that.

    same thing with the french revolution .. they underesitmated that 2/3 of the ppl grief for a strong leader and they did not know that there is no universal solution for everybody. today we know from the works of carl jung that the source of happyness for one is a source of sadness for the next (i crowded place is great for an extroverted and hell for an intoverted ... etc)

    of course we need visions .. i never doubt that .. but you dont need much vision. what you need is the tools to craft that. it was easy to imagine ppl fyling in the sky ... the story of icarus ist thousends of years old ... so why did the brothers wright succeed and why did da vinci fail? because they where more clever, or because they had better tools?

    to go back to communism ... i tell you a vision: i say that if we would have unlimited free energy and some kind of star treck replicator that can made everything you want out out of free energy for free, communism would work very fine ... because there would be no reason to collect stuff anymore .. the idea of heritage would vanish ... this relativates bounds ... etc ...

    but you see how easy that is? to formulate a vision is easy .. but to provide the proper tools is hard. at the time communism is possible, there will be no revolution, it will become as normal as it became normal to travel ways to work that ppl 100 years in the past wouldnt be able to do in one day. we see a revolution of transportation in the past, because it changed quick ... in just 10-20 years or so ... but ... for the guys in this time it was a slow transistion ... and thats the core: if you are in the middle of a historical quick change (perhaps we are) you would not be able to see it.

    i dont think that humans will do the design of new CPUs in 100 years anymore ... learning computer programms are right new kind of creepy in solving problems ...
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2016
  11. SpecFrigateBLK3 Senior Engineer

    I've only read the first page, apologies if this has been said already.
    While some stuff is determined by public R&D, military R&D will progress to keep their own stuff ahead of other countries. This will then trickle down.
  12. Ronin1973 Master Engineer


    I have a similar box. The best thing you can do to get more out of it for gaming is to overclock it. All-in-one liquid coolers are fairly affordable and require no technical expertise to set up. The only real issue is where to put the radiator. You can buy a radiator ready case if need be. With that installed, you're ready to overclock (assuming your motherboard and chip are friendly to it). Asrock makes some decent boards and they have in-OS utilities to help you along. The two big factors that make up your CPU speed (3.2gHz) in your case are the base frequency and the multiplier. The base frequency times the multiplier equals your CPU speed. You can adjust the multiplier up and up. The trade off is more power usage and more heat (that's where the liquid cooler comes in). Usually, you want to keep the base frequency stock as it controls the timing of every aspect of the motherboard and devices attached to it (GPU, memory, etc.)

    You can comfortably overclock an i5 3.2 to around 4.3gHz. Higher speeds are possible but that takes a bit more tinkering. IMHO, for gaming or serving games, it's the one upgrade that will give you the most bang for your buck as the CPU is the biggest bottle-neck due to almost everything only happening on one core.
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  13. FlakMagnet Senior Engineer

    Thanks Ronin .... that's actually very useful to know. I have never really been much of a one for overclocking.....but it might be fun to see what this old rif can really do when pushed :)
  14. frannic Apprentice Engineer

    Very interesting discussion going on here.
  15. mze9412 Junior Engineer

    I have the same CPU and the CPU is not the problem on any game I play, from Witcher 3 to Space Engineers. My CPU is basically bored to death during all games, including even SE in most cases. I have not seen my sim speed go below 0.95 in a long time, ususally it hangs at 1.0. Do not overclock just to overclock of there is no real need for it.
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