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*The Last Bastion* Faction Survival PVP iteration starting this Sunday at 3:30 EST, come join us!

Discussion in 'Multiplayer' started by piratep2r, Feb 24, 2018.

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  1. piratep2r

    piratep2r Trainee Engineer

    A new iteration is about to begin on the Last Bastion server. Three factions will compete to dominate a resource-rich corner of space, and build up enough of a force to take the sector for themselves!

    The factions currently playing are the revolutionary communist potato farmers (reds), the overly-zealous capitalist fatcats (greens), and the totally-lost-but-still-citation-focused federal police (blues).

    Wanna dip your toes into survival PVP in SE? Join a faction as a designer, a miner, a builder, a pilot, or all four! No experience needed, just a willingness to play well with others, and a thirst for design (and destruction)! Join us at this discord link (https://discord.gg/jcCbJJv) to ask questions, meet the admins, or sign up.

    The battle kicks off this Sunday (02/25/18) at 3:30pm EST (12:30pm PST, 830pm GMT)!

    Details: Emergent conflict should happen over four types of locations on this relatively small space-only map.

    First, a central resource-rich cluster of asteroids should draw draw players, since it will be the only source of raw asteroid resources on the map.

    Second, we plan to have several capturable Resource Generating Bases as an alternate source of income.

    Third, factions wishing to expand their production must build (and defend) forward operating bases.

    Fourth, admin managed ‘supply drops’ both in deep space and planet-side will keep the action regular and provide the means to determine the victor!

    In case of total disaster or clang-tastrophy, each faction will have an unattackable HQ base that they can rebuild from.

    Iteration will last 1.5-2.5 weeks.

    Links: (Draft) iteration rules and build guide here (https://tinyurl.com/yclnkcr4). (Draft) modlist is TBD. Server rules are here (https://tinyurl.com/yclnkcr4).

    About us: The Last Bastion (TLB) is a donation-funded, whitelisted SE server that has been running since February 14th, 2017. TLB is mainly managed through our discord server and requires voice comms to be used as a way of facilitating teamwork and community. We generally run ~2-week long faction-based survival PVP iterations designed to encourage player interaction through heavily modified world-, block-, and rule-sets. PB scripts are allowed through vetting on the server administered Github.

    Past iterations have included a road-warrior style scenario, mixed fleet-based iterations, space cowboy partners... and we always welcome new ideas!
  2. Bullet_Force

    Bullet_Force Apprentice Engineer

    While the idea is good I have been going your rules and I must say it's a case of you need to be a damn lawyer to play on your server. Not only are there too many rules to memorize but many of these quaint rules are near impossible to enforce unless the admin is sitting there watching live as it happens.

    Also these rules take away from PVP:
    7. Artificial Mass blocks/spaceballs: 0, you may never build these.
    What is the purpose of this?

    8. Warheads: large grid warheads are never allowed.
    As we all know warheads are already massively under utilized in PVP because of their very limited effectiveness so why go ahead and ban them? Everyone that isn't a noob is going to use kinetic PMW's anyway. The only players that aren't will be noobs or someone that has made some very complex missile with scripts and timers. Why punish creativity?

    9. Large grid drill may never be built.
    You allow small grid drills but not large ones? What is the reasoning behind this?

    10. Large grid blocks are not allowed on small grids.
    This does nothing to improve server performance but just reduces creativity and available combat designs for players. Locked rotors are pretty safe these days.

    PVP Rules

    3. After the PVP hold, you may engage any enemy anywhere, anytime, except within 4 km of their HQ base beacon and 2 km of their Forward Base beacon. You may never approach or attack anything within 4 km of an enemy HQ. You may only attack a Forward Base if 1 or more of the enemy faction is online.

    Too much redtape and you can't expect players to get out their tape measures in the middle of a battle.

    4. If a defending team logs off during a FOB defence, attackers have 1 minute to complete their attack and withdraw back to the 2 km normal “no one online” radius.
    This rule is very poorly written. As it stands it creates a large incentive for players to combat log when under attack. Also very hard to enforce accurately. A better rule would be if you log out when under attack then that is your bad luck.

    6. No piloted or last-minute-bailout ramming allowed. But remote controlled grids, script controlled grids, and uncontrolled grids can be used as kinetic or explosive weapons.

    Impossible to enforce is always going to down one players word vs the others. Also interferes with valid PVP ship designs ie ram ships

    7. PMWs must be launched within visual range of the target and may not split into multiple grids or release items (like spilled cargo) while in flight.
    This is one of the worst rules here. Creating PMW's that split apart is not the easiest feat. Anyone can make a dumb PMW that flies straight, making one with scripts and timers is a work of art. This rule doesn't belong on any proper "PVP" server.

    Custom made scripts being made public is also an issue. If I am going to spend time coding a complex missile script, I am hardly going to want someone on the other team to be able to just steal it off Git Hub to use against me. Its technological warfare, this is valuable information that each team would want to keep secret.

    Also last but not least you have said factions are allowed only 2 refineries/assemblers. I get the sense that the effect of this will be that it will take years to build/do anything because resources will be so limited. The result be very little PVP and certainly no big battles.

    Lastly where is the server based? America, EU, Asia, Oceania?
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2018
  3. piratep2r

    piratep2r Trainee Engineer

    Hello Bullet Force.

    KSH has given us a sandbox with virtually no rules and counterbalances. There is almost nothing built into the game to prevent what would in other games be seen as griefing, or cheating. There is very little attempt from KSH to create balanced play, or meaningful survival. There is nothing in default vanilla worlds to encourage PVP. Therefore we mod, engineer, and rule-make to encourage the outcomes we want. And we are quite successful. LB has insane emergent combat, like no other server I have ever seen. And we have been quite successful - we have been donation funded for more than a year now. But the downside is a multi-page rule and build guide. We could explain the "why" behind every rule in that document, but that would make it longer!

    But you asked, so here we go!

    7. arty-mass. They are a core component of gravity drives, and the players on our server are smart enough to use gravity drives. Gravity drives are so stupendously powerful as to make both regular drives and small grids obsolete, and are generally unfun with the guns we are provided by KSH. Seriously, 0-100 in .5 seconds is pretty average last time we did a grav drive allowed iteration. Additionally, mass grav drives brings the server to its knees. Thus, no artymass = no grav drives, problem solved from an admin perspective.

    8. Warheads get used in almost every PMW on our server, and hundreds or thousands get detonated some iterations. Large grid warheads are simply too powerful to use; as it is, we have had to limit the number of small grid warheads to 27 per PMW to find a reasonable balance of insane damage without vaporizing the target. Just because you don't know how to use them effectively doesn't mean others also don't. Our players use them effectively all the time, and it is awesome.

    9. We try to create emergent PVP. Things to fight over. Mining operations are one of these. Large grid drills mine so stupendously fast that a team can harvest enough resources to last them an entire iteration in a few hours with large grid drills. This means another team will never catch them out mining, since they will have stopped after the first day or so. No ability to raid miners, no need to escort miners, less PVP. We see this as a bad thing, so try to keep teams mining fairly regularly all iteration. limiting them to small grid drills only (and other related rules) helps encourage this.

    10. Large grid blocks are not allowed on small grids. But small grid blocks are allowed on large grids. I think you may have misunderstood this rule. This combines with limited numbers of large and small grids per faction. If I want to put a medbay on my fighter, then it comes out of my faction's large grid allowance and thus is a pretty big sacrifice, since I am giving up a battleship slot to do it. But in no way are mixed grids outlawed. No creativity was harmed in the making of this rule, and we see cool mixed grid stuff all the time.


    3. We use beacons on HQs. You will know you are 3km from an enemy base when the beacon distance reads 3 km. How is this hard? Besides, if someone is chasing me into my base's safe zone, I will tell them in chat. It's in my best interest.

    4. KSH MP code is really quite unstable, and most bugs happen during intense interaction on the server... like combat. I have, myself, witnessed this multiple times - entire teams crashing during an attack. Sometimes the attackers, sometimes the defenders, sometimes both... sometimes the entire server. So, how do admins balance the fact that this really happens with the fact that people will "combat log" if they will get some benefit from it and feel like they are losing. Answer? You write a rule like this one, that are a compromise. Combat logging is not a complete protection, and a lot of damage can be done in a minute, especially with PMWs.

    6. In vanilla SE, ram ships will always do insanely disproportionate damage compared to their cost. Just ram your favorite battleship with the starting yellow banana at max speed and see what happens. Server admins who want to see any other kind of combat in place of "all ramming, all the time" have to address this. This is how we addressed it - we outlawed regular ramming, while still allowing remote controlled ramming, kinetic dumbfire PMWs, and script piloted PMWs (kinetic or explosive). It works out quite well, and players tend to be good sports about it although the occasional accidental ram still occurs. But no one has rage-quit over ramming, which I see as a victory.

    7. Splitting weapons are not particularly hard to build, and KSH's turret AI really struggles with them, because often cargo-based payloads have no ownership and thus are not targetable by defensive turrets. Uninterceptible weapons are not fun to play against. Also, splitting weapons are hard on the server, and very hard for admins to clean up, since KSH's native auto-clean is quite bad. No admin wants to hand delete 100 death lotus projectiless that have been left spinning in the void.

    Other questions:

    Q1. making a PMW with scripts and timers is a work of art (and should not be outlawed).

    A. It is not outlawed, it is encouraged, and most factions will have multiple members who build guided, PMW equipped grids. It's awesome, and they are awesomely deadly. They just aren't splitting PMWs. And they have to be launched within sight of an enemy so that non-PMW combat has a place too. I have a lovely little 12-PMW bomber that has blown large grids a hundred times larger in half. Fire from 3-5km, guide the PMWs in on the target, and watch the fireworks. Soooo satisfying.

    Q2. Custom made scripts being made public is also an issue.

    A. So is having players be able to code scripts that literally crash the server, or bog it down to the point of unplayability. And yet KSH builds no native support for admins to limit player scripts. Pblocks are either on, or they are off in server settings. Heck, KSH gives admins no tools to even identify which scripts are causing problems! So this is our rule, to help prevent the abuse (or coding failure) of one player from hurting everyone else's good time. Many different scripts have been through a review and load testing process, and are approved, so players who want to do something can often do it with a pblock.

    Q3. Also last but not least you have said factions are allowed only 2 refineries/assemblers.

    A. I think you should look deeper into the rule. While you can only have 2 ref/as/arcs per base, you are allowed multiple bases... and only the first base is invulnerable. This encourages teams to expand. But expanding opens themselves up to attack. Suddenly emergent PVP!

    Q4. I get the sense that the effect of this will be that it will take years to build/do anything because resources will be so limited. The result be very little PVP and certainly no big battles.

    A. Well, we had multiple battles every day, between large forces of small grids and small forces of large grids. People got jumped in the resource fields. People fought over the resource bases. Brutal ambushes were conducted at the drop off points and around the admin-placed drop objects. Sneaky teams grabbed objectives while other factions duked it out with battleships. It was awesome. In a two week period I can only estimate that dozens or hundreds of battles took place, depending on how you want to break them up into events. So your fears here were unfounded. Maybe we have our multipliers set higher than you are used to? 2 refineries set to 10x in server settings are as productive as 20 set to 1. They are just 20x less load on the server.

    Hope this has been educational. Feel free to write back with more questions, but you will get faster answers on reddit if you hit me up there!

    Edit: final Q: Location. East USA. But we have players from all over. Europe, SE Asia, Australia, US, Canada, Caribbean.
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2018
  4. Bullet_Force

    Bullet_Force Apprentice Engineer

    Good server but Australian pings are a bit too high to really play on it.
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2018
  5. piratep2r

    piratep2r Trainee Engineer

    We have had multiple Australian players tho...

    (it is a problem for sure, but we do what we can. we even use an auto-ore pickup mod specifically for that purpose. Without it they were having trouble mining).
  6. Calaban

    Calaban Junior Engineer

    sounds like my kind of multiplayer

    is there a.. i guess community affairs person? you know- one that blogs the epic moments and intense battles of each iterations, to fuel the fire of its popularity, sort of like a news report of the battlefield- screenshots and all? if not.. why not? :)
    • Like Like x 1
  7. piratep2r

    piratep2r Trainee Engineer

    There is not! Often players will post to reddit or steam, but that is only when they get excited about it. No one currently has that "job."

    The reason is simple: the admins (there are currently 4.5) spend an insane amount of time keeping the server functioning, and are all volunteers who wish they could play more and admin less. Doing additional work like better community promotion would take time that we don't currently have. Instead, we post when we can; you may have seen my posts on reddit (here is a relevant one: https://www.reddit.com/r/spaceengin...pic_1_vs_3_pvp_combat_last_bastion_shows_how/).

    Also, players are flaky. For example, we had one person reach out who wanted to make video for us, but we sent him a bunch of video and then he ghosted. No worries though, this sort of thing is pretty common with volunteer organizations.

    If you were interested, you should check us out!
  8. Calaban

    Calaban Junior Engineer

    It does sound kind of exhausting, now that I think about it..but an admin in spectate with Shadowplay is just an alt-F9 away from live vidcap. just saying, all participants.... :)
  9. piratep2r

    piratep2r Trainee Engineer

    but who wants to see video of admins cutting and pasting grids, or debugging torch interface.

    besides, taking video isnt hard... its the editing that takes time. For me at least ;)
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