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The Major Problems that Ruin Survival.

Discussion in 'Survival' started by Project 06, May 24, 2016.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Project 06 Trainee Engineer

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    30
    Im going to list off bugs(or just poorly made things) that ruin survival mode in this game either by making it too difficult or too tedious. I want to get these points across in the hopes that they will be fixed at some point.

    Meteor Showers:
    - Inconsistent strike times regardless of difficulty, i play on normal difficulty and storms have arrived 15 minutes apart from eachother and also 1 minute apart.
    - The accuracy of these showers is ridiculous, I can confidently say that 4/5 meteor storms strike at least once, potentially destroying core components and possibly even making the game impossible to progress(if all refineries/arc furnaces are destroyed)
    - (THIS PROBLEM HAS BEEN FIXED NOW!!!)Perhaps the biggest and most frustrating problem of all is the fact that meteor storms strike from UNDERGROUND at night. I'm guessing this is because the storms always spawn from the sun, but the distance that they spawn from a player is less than that of an average planet.

    Cyberhounds:
    - I'm not including spiders in this because I've never played a survival mode with them, but I assume they're much worse than Cyberhounds.
    - Cyberhounds can and will tear apart small ships within a minute, here's a scenario where they can and will destroy something with ease:
    - Say you have a small vehicle that you use to scout for minerals and carry additional resources when you go mining. This vehicle using light armor(because heavy armor even for small ships is hard to build in early stages of survival). You start mining a tunnel to get at some minerals, you come back up to the surface to see your vehicle in pieces because 3 hounds have tore it apart. I know for a fact that Cyberhounds can destroy one small ship light armor block in a few hits, and when you simply cant watch over that vehicle its doomed.
    - Also, if your vehicle isn't firmly placed on a surface with landing gears(which is something vehicles shouldn't have to use) Cyberhounds can launch them in space by simply walking into them, and yes I've seen this happen too. This only occurs in small ships that don't have much weight to them, but being realistic, a bare bones small ship would still weigh enough to the point that a robotic dog can't launch it like a catapult.

    Pirates:
    - The only issue i have with pirates is that they don't naturally spawn on planets.

    Now i know some of you will say things like; "Just turn off meteor showers", "Turn off Cyberhounds", or "Play in space then". The problem with simply turning off meteor showers or Cyberhounds is that takes away from what little "survival" there is in this game. Whats the point in surviving when there's nothing to survive against? As for playing the game in space, well i prefer to start off on a planet and build a ship that can enter space, for a sense a progression. I'm pretty sure some of these problems are already well known, I just want to make sure everyone is aware of these problems because they really ruin survival me and I'm guessing alot of other people.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2016
  2. Silvoan Trainee Engineer

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    26
    Totally agree with the meteor showers point, and to a lesser extent on cyber hounds. I feel meteor showers could be fixed with two things:
    • Not spawning inside the planet
    • Changing turrets so they don't attack meteors that have flown past.
    I don't have any issue with the accuracy of the meteor strikes, so long as there was a way to account for it with better turret AI.

    My issue with cyber hounds are different: I feel like they're not big enough of an issue. For example, my earth base is cantilevered off the face of a mountain, which hounds have a nigh impossible time reaching (and by that I mean I have never, in like 200 hours on my game, have ever needed to kill one). I actually enjoyed it when they would explode, but I totally understand taking that feature away, especially when you consider their atrocious path-finding.

    Of course, all of my ships fly, so at the very least if I'm mining and collect a hound or two while escaping my hole, I just kind of shake them off.

    And I agree about the planetary pirates, I don't know why Keen doesn't include a few of their bases scattered about the earth? I mean they're already designed and implemented on the easy earth start, but I never start on the easy earth start.
     
  3. Maddo Trainee Engineer

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    41
    Would be nice if turrets were more intelligent about shooting meteors.
     
  4. Sirhan Blixt Apprentice Engineer

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    467
    [Like a scrub, I initially posted this on the other copy of this thread]

    If you want to experience some major anti-game you should try Day-Z. Otherwise, it sounds like you need to adjust your survival strategies if you are unwilling to adjust the world. I think the guy who built himself an aerie in the side of a mountain might be on to something.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  5. Dicarus Apprentice Engineer

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    136
    I like the idea of cyberhounds, but the fact they spawn 24/7 at day and night and go STRAIGHT for you is just infuriating.

    Cyberhounds just should be replaced with wolves, wolves that aggro if player comes X meters close. Wolves that aren't particularily metal-hungry so you can build a powered suit or a car and be more or less safe from them.

    Spiders also should spawn in large X meter radius around a queen, a queen which spawns only once and those queens should be spread over the planet, they also should be unable to dig in.
    Why aren't spider hives even in yet?
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  6. Project 06 Trainee Engineer

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    30
    Well in early stages of a survival scenario, wheeled vehicles are extremely cost efficient. That is why i use them.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. Ame Trainee Engineer

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    74
    Meteor Storms: The definitely need some love. They haven't been changed since the introduction of planets, and they are in sore need of adjustment. However, I can see why they haven't messed with them yet, considering the other stuff that's wrong with the game.

    Hounds: Sounds to me that much of the OP's problems with them can be solved with a bit more planning before settling on a base location/going outside your safe zone. There's no shame in retro-fitting your starting lander with guns to keep the hounds at bay while you explore the area a bit. If I'm playing with cyberhounds, no vehicle leaves home unarmed.

    That part with the cyberhounds tossing your vehicles into the air sounds pretty buggy to me, maybe put up a bug report?

    Pirates: totally agree. Why can't they be put at specific locations on planets? It may get boring after multiple playthroughs, but it would be a lot less boring than without pirates.
     
  8. tankmayvin Senior Engineer

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    2,864
    The mobs/threats like meteors, dogs, and sabiroids are crap mechanics because they are a flat timer spam mechanic. There is no fun engineering solutions against them. No threat progression, etc.

    They just constantly trickle in on a timer. and that's lame.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  9. Akimitsu18 Apprentice Engineer

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    185
    For dogs and spiders, I think it would be reasonable to make it so they can't spawn within so many meters of player-created blocks. Perhaps a long distance from stations, shorter distance from large ships, and a very short distance from small ships. Basically, prevent them from popping out of the ground immediately underneath some thing that you built or parked on the ground hours ago. Afterall, these spiders aren't supposed to be like moles who will dig a tunnel from A to B, but more like burrowing spiders who just dig into the ground a couple feet or inches in order to hide and wait for something that passes by. If that's the case, then it's not reasonable for your base to continually be surprised by spiders popping up inside your base.

    I think that thing about meteors coming from underground is a bug that will get addressed once they figure out how.
     
  10. Hymirl Trainee Engineer

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    93
    Meteor showers are pretty harsh, and the frequency makes starting really hard and setting up defense guns means you're just paying a bullet tax.

    I think dogs need a rework. They spawn in bases, spawn constantly and again chew up too much stuff.
    Creepers in mine craft would be awful if they blew up your stuff all day and night regardless if you got close.
    There needs to be ways to manage them, or at least effective walls or safe times.

    Pirates? Do an easy start, disable the Base and respawn in a lander?

    Yes, more Pirates would be good. I'm still looking forward to npc factions at some point.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  11. tankmayvin Senior Engineer

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    2,864
    That is a good way to put it. Meteors are a "bullet tax".

    They are also a huge time tax in space. Meteors always come from the sun, so you can easily counter them by putting a roid or planet between your stuff and the sun. But that's a nearly continuous micromanagement job.

    The bullet tax wouldn't be so bad if turrets actually shot down meteors reliably. But I always have a few leak through no matter how many guns I have, and the guns will blast meteors that aren't a threat, and in the process ignoring ones that are.

    Which means you basically have to hide from the sun to be reliably protected.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2016
    • Agree Agree x 1
  12. ViroMan Senior Engineer

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    1,123
    I never use wheeled vehicles when the hounds are enabled. I use 3 legged small ships with atmo thrusters. The legs are each just long enough that the hounds can't bite the underside of the ship. The legs are made of heavy armor (which the dogs can't seem to damage too much. They CAN destroy a block if you give them a lot of time though but, that is why the legs are 2x2x(5?)). The only downside to this strategy is that you can't lock on to the ground so you need a relatively flat surface to land. (which is easy to just hop out and make a landing pad with a drill)
     
  13. Silvoan Trainee Engineer

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    26
    If I intend to settle on some plains-like surface for a star system scenario, the first thing I do is hover above the ground, hop out and build an interior turret on the bottom of the lander. The lander comes with oodles of ammo so you should be fine at least until you begin manufacturing ammo; and I always set the turret range to a minimum (~60 m). This ensures that they're super accurate when they do shoot.

    Also, I understand the efficiency of wheeled vehicles but every time I've started on star system, I've been able to scrap and build two small ships from the lander with more than enough energy to charge a mining ship so I can hunt down some uranium.
     
  14. Sagi Apprentice Engineer

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    265
    Cyber hounds or no problem at all as long as you have light turrets coverage around your foothold.
    Best to set their attack range much closer so they don't waste a lot of ammo. Cyberhounds also give quite a bit of loot so they are very well balanced.
    Even with small miners i have no problem. if the dogs com i gpo out and kill them with the rifle, most of my miners can also fly so they can fly away if needed.

    Meteor showers are indeed quite a problem. It would be more logical if you can set a minimum and maximum timer cuzz indeed they happen very very often.

    spiders never played with them but i know they go down just as easely as hounds do.

    I find pirates annoying so they are always turned off with me.


    What i think that ruins survival is the multiplayer pvp survival.
    If they take your base, you immidiatly lost the entire base! Not just the cargo and some holes in the wall.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  15. zDeveloper10 Junior Engineer

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    742
    I think once pirate bases get better performance keen might consider spawning them(including maybe pre selecting spots or finding a algorithm to prevent them from spawning half-burried).
    idk for sure though.
    currently the one that starts you with a small base vs some fly-over pirates,runs very slowly.(it's not pirates per se, they work fine in space for the most part, it's probably some combination of quantity and interaction with the planet)
    smarter pirates that are more interactive would probably also increase the experience. wolves that try to find a way through rather than go through directly. (thank goodness they stopped them from exploding when they can't get through!)

    MP survival: balance feasible protection with creativity- not too much space inexplicably protected by a flaky add in module but at the same time not too little protection that anyone with enough patience to throw bodies or chunks of metal at it leaves it defenseless.

    some of the lack of depth may be improved with more defined faction relationships,structures,etc- but I wouldn't hold my breath for that happening any time soon lol.
     
  16. ViroMan Senior Engineer

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    1,123
    I think there was some mod that allowed pirate bases to be spawned from other pirates. So if you left the pirates alone your planet would be covered in bases.
     
  17. DJToxica Apprentice Engineer

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    129
    Cyberhounds:
    I want them on but it's nearly impossible to play. First time we played with them on, we landed with our modded spawnship which hasn't that much ammo on it. The second we set foot on the surface 5 dogs came to kill us. After we killed them the next 3 came for us and so on. After minutes our ammo was gone and more dogs came with no end.
    My Idea would be, why not let them spawn only at ore nodes? Would fit if they eat metal. Also they should fear turrets (because the kill them) so they make a big circle around them EXCEPT for the case a big mob gets together like in waves at night.
    Spiders:
    No idea never played with them.
    Meteors:
    I like the idea of a threat from above like meteors, but as long as it's that hard to protect from it....there should be less projectiles.
    What i really thought was cool were the solar flares from miner wars 2081 were a deadly shockwave of electromagnetic plasma destroyed everything which wasn't in a bigger ship, or behind an asteroid.
    But for the meteors an idea would be a cheap, really fast shooting turret like a CIWS which is installed on modern Aircraft Carriers to protect from non armored incoming threats.
    And the range of a turret should be configurable like a gravgen so you can set different ranges for each axis so meteors which fly past you won't be targeted. In space you have to orient your ship to the sun which would you do normally for solar panels.
     
  18. Aetrion Apprentice Engineer

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    202
    My biggest problem with Survival is that all the dangers in Survival mode go after you, rather than impeding your progress through the world. You don't get a sense of progression where things get harder as you set your sights on more and more valuable things, things start out insanely hard and then gradually reduce in difficulty until the only challenge left is upkeep.

    I think there should be a kind of escalation to the dangers you face in the game, so that you have reasons to constantly construct more powerful vessels to tackle these various challenges. Instead you just get hit with everything at the same time, and every bad thing in the universe targets you like it's sent by an omniscient god who wants you dead.

    The game would simply be more interesting if you were the one going out to take on the dangers that lurk in space, rather than all the dangers constantly trying to beat your door down. How do the pirates always know exactly where you are? Why do meteors bombard whatever area you're in but never anywhere else? It makes no sense.

    What would be more interesting would be if different regions of the map contained different dangers. What if there were corridors of space with meteor showers that also contained more valuable asteroids? What if pirates had huge fortified bases that contained valuable things to scavenge and locked down particularly rich asteroids? That would actually give you a sense of progression, inviting you to build ships to tackle these kinds of obstacles.

    Pirate attacks on your base definitely should only happen once you make yourself known to the pirates, it makes absolutely no sense that they come at you at all times always knowing exactly where you are. NPC pirates should be more like player pirates, where avoiding confrontations with them is possible if you make sure to stay mobile and avoid contact with them.
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
  19. Sagi Apprentice Engineer

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    265
    I completly agree with Aetrion,
    But i also understand that this will create a lot of work for the dev's.
    But it would also be great for exploration value
     
  20. kittle Senior Engineer

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    1,086
    it COULD be a lot of work for the devs. but all the parts are in place to add quite a bit of progression.

    The current setup doesnt offer much variety. take the case of thrusters -- We have 3 kinds. 1 for space, one for planets and 1 for both. thats it. Once you build an ion thruster... you have built one, and theres nothing else. Only adding more of the same kind. Now if we had various tiers of thrusters that work better and take hard to find materials -- there would be some feel of progression.

    In order for that to work, we need a few new models, some simple XML file entries, and the new RARE ore types.
    a LOT of work? not really. but id rather have working MP than tiered thrusters.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
  21. Sagi Apprentice Engineer

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    265
    I also agree with you but what you suggest has little to do with what Aetrion said
     
  22. Aetrion Apprentice Engineer

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    202
    Well, he's referring to the idea that it's tough to give people some kind of big reward in a game where there are no resource tiers or better items you can get by harvesting higher grade resources.

    I mean, what do you hide at the center of planet hell in the galaxy of death in Space Engineers? Not like we don't have tons of every resource by the time we'd get there.

    I think one thing that would be a big deal IMO would be renewable resources of some type. Like if an asteroid could have a dense core of a material that can be mined without actually depleting, or a planet could yield an infinite amount of biomass farming or something like that. That'd also go a long way in multiplayer for making conquest actually worthwhile and not just something dickish you do because you're bored. Controlling a dense core asteroid that yields a valuable material actually means something if that's extremely rare in the galaxy, so you can fight wars over it.

    Too many of the resources in SE deplete so damn fast that you never effectively get the notion of any established locations in the game. I mean, in real life you might have a coal town, and sure, that coal doesn't last forever, but it lasts hundreds of years, long enough for that to be a place that is there for a whole persons lifetime. In SE you would never get something like a Gold Mining Base though, because if you have the resources to build a whole base you also have the resources to grind up all the gold on an asteroid in 30 minutes and move on.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  23. Sagi Apprentice Engineer

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    265
    For that reason i suggested in another topic to have some sort of drill that doesn't deplete ores but rather generate the ores at a much slower rate.
    The downside would be that this drill has to be stationary.

    If you implement this players would also have a real use to build big cargo ships, something that on this point has almost no use...
    but alas many people cracked the idea down terrible...
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  24. Aetrion Apprentice Engineer

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    202
    Well, being able to drill any deposit infinitely wouldn't really give you high value areas in space, it would just allow you to generate infinite resources from the first deposits you find.

    But yea, people on this forum tend to be absurdly invested in the status quo, and often reject ideas that would actually allow this to be played as a persistent world game where different factions actually produce different things and you have trade going on and permanent installations that serve some general purpose. There is unfortunately very little in this game right now that actually encourages you to actually colonize anywhere, because you can grab all the resources so quickly, and there is no possibility for trade because there is no way to build a specialized infrastructure in a specific place for harvesting a specific resource.

    The game does an OK job of being a simulation of going into a completely empty region of space and mucking around there till you get bored, but it falls apart when you're actually trying to move to some kind of semblance of civilization.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  25. Sagi Apprentice Engineer

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    265
    we are on the same line ;)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  26. Anach Trainee Engineer

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    77
    The problem is the AI on all these things is very simple, there is no escaping it, no protection against it, and nothing you can do to minimize it.
    • Meteors - These come from the sun, and very frequent intervals, and target you a little too well. You cannot hide from them, even on a static asteroids, because the sun orbits.
    • Cyberhounds - They might only spawn at night, but they don't despawn, so they might as well be 24/7; like meteors, they come right for the player, can dig through metal and come in groups.
    • Sabaroids - While, similar to Cyberhounds, they are harder to kill, and are 27/7. Right now they make doing anything on the Alien planet almost pointless.
    Each one of these needs to be improved to make it more interesting, and less frustrating, but keeping the survival feel.
    • Meteors - These should only spawn in certain areas , such as near planets, and asteroids, but not the middle of space. This simulates them being attracted by gravity fields, and being asteroid debris. The frequency needs to be far more random and rarer the further away from these bodies you go. Planets with dense atmospheres should provide a high level of protection from meteors compared to planets with no/little atmosphere. Another possibility is to have random orbiting comets, which release meteors when a player is within a certain range, and they come from the direction of the comet; this makes the direction more random, ads a cool looking comet, and if made of ice, there is a possibility of mining it.
    • Cyberhounds - Dogs shouldn't be digging through metal at all; damaging light armour is OK, but not destroying it. They shouldn't target the player unless they see the player. There should be a percentage chance of them spawning, rather than constant. Essentially, you should be able to keep your distance and be safe if you're careful. However, it should be any time of day. This means you still have to look over your shoulder, but it's far less predictable.
    • Sabaroids - These shouldn't be like hounds at all. They should only spawn in certain areas, like plains (where we like to land) or near certain resources, should only be activated by high noise levels, like mining, construction, vehicles, or landing a ship; anything that disturbs the ground. While they can dig through light armour, they shouldn't be able to get through heavy armour at all. They also need to be able to jump around 2 blocks high, but not climb, so they can go over small walls or get onto smaller vehicles.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  27. Aetrion Apprentice Engineer

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    202
    Yea, the game would be a lot better if the enemies and environmental dangers were things you encounter as you try to reach new areas of the game, and that kept you from getting large quantities of the most valuable resources.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  28. Azirahael Apprentice Engineer

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    154
    I'm used to minecraft and fortresscraft, where mobs interfere with your stuff, but don't directly attack it, and they attack *you*.

    It's annoying to find that a bunch of dogs have eaten your building, while you were away.

    If building eating monsters spawned in resource rich areas, we could buld in safety elsewhere, and fight them when we went harvesting.
    Like Empyrion.
     
  29. Sapioit Apprentice Engineer

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    188
    Just my two cents, but make the meteorites fall randomly between one hour and two hours, make the wolves killable in 2-3 hits (bullets or tools), weaken them (5 minutes to break a small ship light armour), and have their numbers dependent on the total ammount of processed resources in a chunck. Also, the current v01.147 cyberwolves could be repurposed to be crafted by the player, to roam and defend the structures built by the faction/group the player is a part of.

    That way, by having the starting ship replaced with a hardcore starter ship, you could have both a challenging survival (you can always spawn in a diffeernt ship) and a small ammount of critters to deal with, before you get good tech.

    And if the spiders would spawn where the meteorites hit the ground, or be the equivalent of wolves on an alien planet, we would have more action and stuff to explore.
     
  30. chemicalscum Apprentice Engineer

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    318
    Space Engineers really needs a major Survival update that rebalances everything in an exciting and challenging way. A fun and good working Survival mode is what gives purpose to the whole creative aspect of the game. Better and more random meteors , more convincing wildlife and more natural elements that add challenges like radiation and temperature. There are so many possibilities.
     
    • Agree Agree x 6
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