Welcome to Keen Software House Forums! Log in or Sign up to interact with the KSH community.
  1. You are currently browsing our forum as a guest. Create your own forum account to access all forum functionality.

The State of SE: My Thoughts

Discussion in 'General' started by iN5URG3NT, Feb 20, 2017.

Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. iN5URG3NT Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,132
    I thought I'd share how I feel about SE, in case anyone else thinks the same, but mostly just to get it off my chest. This is quite a long post, and not particularly optimistic.


    5URG3's Story:


    I'm going to build a Missile Frigate for the workshop, it's looking good, nice lines, six guided missiles. Oh wait, no, timers are broken. Not a problem, I'll build something else and come back to it.


    Planetary Lifter, that sounds good. I see a lot of planetary freighters and think “That's not going to actually lift much cargo, not enough thrust, I can do better”. *Builds planetary lifter using modular containers to lift any cargo type to space in 1x* Nice, this is going to be good, maybe I'll build a stellar freighter and a ground base to go with it... Oh wait, no, merges are broken, the containers fall off. No worries, I'll build something else and come back to it later.


    Woot! Timers are fixed. Merges are broken still, but no problem, I've seen a sweet Gatling release mechanism on Reddit, I think I can use it to build a MLRS, maybe even guided missiles. *builds and releases a guided missile MLRS Corvette, makes the FP* Well that went well, bit of a shame about this new armour texture and the lag while welding, but no worries, it was a fun concept.


    A Battlecruiser, that's what I need, a proper capital ship for space. It'll be awesome, loads of PMW, loads of turrets, composite armour, drone hangar, absolute badassery. *Builds Battlecruiser, takes ages, but coming together nicely* Right, time for some rotor turrets, nothing crazy, small grid on large base, 4 gats. *mounts and sets up turrets* Ok, lets try this out. Dakka, dakka, dakka! Awesome, ok, time for a test drive, this is a pretty fast Battlecruiser, better sets the auto-lock on the turrets to a safe margin, say 65m/s. *accelerates to max speed, turns about 30 degrees to the left* CLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANG! Big holes in the nacelles, all rotors have gone. Ok... maybe I was optimistic about rotor, I should have known better. Ships are too fast, I'll need to do something slower...


    Ok, how about a vehicle, they are relatively slow. I once built a vehicle with a piston drill for a contest, I bet I could do that concept in a much more efficient way now. Pistons and wheels... You think you know what is coming don't you? No, actually :D *builds prospecting vehicle* Ok, I've kept this relatively simple, let's give it a go, I’ll keep things simple and just do things manually, I'll set up timers in a bit. *tests beautifully* Niiiiice. My faith is momentarily restored. Time to set up those timers... Oh wait, no. There is now no option to switch drills when they are on a piston, despite this being a feature for years. Ok... Ok... Umm, er, what can I build that isn't affected by all these bugs...


    Got it, new UFAC with a tiny MLRS, just like the Wildcat, but really small, that system still works. Oh, new skybox, pretty. Ok, lets build this... Oh wait, no. Welder distances have been changed, the launcher design can no longer be compact...


    Fuck. This. Noise.


    I'm getting Avorion.


    -


    This is how I see it and I don't think I'm alone:

    Lots of people love the idea of SE so much they are blind to the reality of SE.

    It's easy to defend SE's faults and accept the mistakes if there is the belief that one day it will come good, that SE will become a fun, unique and functional game. Even now, many will be happy to defend the recent updates, despite them being pretty dodgy and breaking some of the games best features. I know this, because I was optimistic about SE for years.

    But then it dawned on me, I don't really like SE any more, it doesn't really work properly and it mostly just irritates me these days. I do however, love the idea of SE. It's the creativity it allows, it's beautiful. You could build anything you want. Not only that, you could build individual systems for your creations, such as weapons, cockpits, ECM systems, all sorts.

    While you still hold the overriding belief that eventually everything is going to be good, even if the end goal is quite modest, you overlook the fact that a rotor just tore through your hull, or that PMW are broken, or that the framerate is never smooth, or that survival is bland. You just say, “oh well, I'll build something else, there's so much potential” and move on. You consider the potential of the game and think it's going to be ok.

    The problem occurs when you run out of faith, usually after a complete cluster fuck of bugs like in my case.

    Then you start to believe that maybe this isn't going to eventually work out, that maybe the game's sales have peaked. You see the recent updates and think that there isn't enough money to finish it properly and it's being pushed out with whatever resources are left. You see the mounting negative reviews and consider their effect on future sales. You start to think potential isn't enough, that we need results.

    Then the veil slips, and you become angry, you wonder why you invested so much time into a doomed concept. Your mind begins to become cynical, seeing visual updates and beta status as simply a sales ploy. If nothing has changed, why call it beta?

    And so your tolerance for bugs and mistakes drops dramatically. You start to question everything, why was this done? Who's stupid idea was this?

    Is there a real long term plan?

    Are we being taken for a ride?

    As clichéd as it is to say, why do rotors and pistons still not work properly? Does any one ever think that maybe they aren't fixed because they can't be fixed?

    Given the multitude of functionality bugs affecting many in game systems, why has Keen has recently pushed visual updates? Why? To make the screenshots look nice?

    Is SE ever going to be an actual game, with objectives and depth?


    I no longer have much faith in SE. The problems with SE are not one or two, they are many, more than I can be bothered to list here. Look at SE one year ago and look at it now. I don't think you will find there are less bugs, just different bugs.

    I enjoyed my time with SE, I really did, especially the workshop and the community. Since this game was a gift and I’ve played it for nearly two and a half thousand hours, I'm hardly going to complain about it being a waste of money.

    But in my honest opinion, there is something very wrong with SE. The game has lost it's way. There seems to be no vision, no coherency and despite what many may say, there is a sense that the game is being rushed for release. If things do not change significantly, I do not think SE is not going to be favourably reviewed.

    That's it, I still hope that some kind of miracle occurs and SE is a great game, but I doubt it. If you read this far, thanks. I'm off now. Maybe we'll meet again on some other space building game in the future. Keep an eye out for Hyperion Systems!

    MERGED FROM BELOW:

    Sorry for the depressing post guys, but I felt I had to say something.

    First of all, while there may be no more Hyperion Systems in SE, I still love building spaceships. I guess I have SE to thank for that. There will be more space building games and I hope to see you guys in the future.

    I absolutely agree with the guys who have said there is nothing like SE. That is totally true. If it worked properly it would be unstoppable. But... it doesn't work properly. If you coldly consider the Unique Selling Points of SE, things don't look as good.

    • You can build PMW - An absolute stunner of a feature. Christ, the hours I've put in designing launchers and missiles/torpedoes. This is probably my favourite thing about SE. The whole arms race has been brilliant. Trying to get the first of it's kind to "market", wondering what mad new designs are coming soon from other ship builders, hassling Whip for new code, asking the Survival guys about armour, cost and efficiency, it's been really fun. But... Right now, most PMW designs are broken and the ones that work are very simple and inaccurate. Not only that, the chances of being able to actually use them in a battle are slim as even in SP, lag and bugs will stop any meaningful battling. So often have debates about PMW been had, but the vast majority of scenarios are theoretical only. So, can we really consider that a USP?
    • Huge, realistic planets - I was never that excited about planets, but I enjoyed the engineering challenges they brought. But.. Right now, wheels are temperamental AF, there is no aerodynamics, the NPC's are bland and uninteresting and once you've left a planet, there is no reason to go back. This ate up a lot of programming time I believe and it's not hard to see that at least some of this time could have been better spent. Is this really a USP? If it is, it's not going to be for long, Planets Nomads EA is soon. I'm skeptical about it, but since it's built from a planet first perspective, I'd say there is a fair chance the planets will work better.
    • Custom Interiors - Never my favourite part of a build, but still a cool feature. Some of the interior designs on the Workshop, especially @Avaslash and @Lord Commissar, are outstanding. But... What reason is there for these interiors? Pressurisation's implementation has been mediocre, even before it was removed by default, as there is bugger all reason to take your helmet off anyway. Not only that, it's unlikely you will have enough crew to fill the control stations on account of MP performance and it not like anyone really expects NPC engineers now. Others will do this soon, such as Planet Nomads.
    • The Workshop - Probably tied with PMW as my favourite feature. For a long time, building ships for the WS was literally the only thing I did with my gaming PC. Particular highlights were the introduction of guided missiles by @Whiplash141 and the blitz of new designs after planets arrived. The "Europa Campaign" was arguably the most fun metagame experience I've ever had. FIGHT THE BIRD! :D But... This feature undoubtedly sold copies of SE and so it will be done by others. Empyrion's is already online and Avorion's is coming soon. Given the most popular ships on the Workshop are pretty ones and replicas, Avorion is going to do well here I think. Seriously, check out the screenshots. Dat Normandy... Wow.
    • The Programming Block - Regarded by me as a mysterious but magical block, this is probably the USP that SE can keep for the longest. However, Planet Nomads has a PB as a stretch goal, so if the game does well, this USPs days are numbered.

    So this is really the problem, the potential, the idea, the possibilities are amazing, but they are not really realistic. Most of the great stuff is hamstrung by bugs and poor implementation. Not only that, others are going to do similar things, some of which will be here in the next few months.

    I'm enjoying Avorion, but like others have said, it's not SE and it lacks SE's coolest features. But it is an actual game with objectives and depth, it is stable and it is fun. The build mode, while not so intuitive at first, is amazing over time and allows some fantastic hull detailing. Considering it was made in four years by one guy and his mate, it's pretty good. It's a perfect example of why having a plan and direction is absolutely essential. It is a bit of a filler though, until the arrival of...

    Planet Nomads. Will be EA soon, and like all EA, should be treated with skepticism. However, this appears to me, to be the best upcoming alternative. Should they finish the stretch goals and critically, make it work properly, it will have virtually everything SE does but better.




    [​IMG] The Churrosaur said:

    I've had a lot of fun with you guys- building, dogfighting, writing lore. Maybe my naiveté will bear fruit and I'll see you on the other side; if not, it's been fun.

    The lore ain't over Terran, keep your dirty hands off Ceres... :D
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2017
    • Agree x 51
    • Disagree x 2
    • Like x 1
    • Friendly x 1
    • Late x 1
  2. russo_bolado Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    613
    It's a shame SE will lose (at least for some time, or forever... who knows) Hyperion Systems. Your designs are very cool. Maybe you come back someday, or... Maybe I'll find Hyperion Systems in another universe.

    When next paycheck comes, I'll browse the Steam Store.
     
    • Agree Agree x 6
    • Friendly Friendly x 2
  3. beelzerob Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    429
    I'm pretty sure you covered all 5 stages of grief.

    I agree with you, I think I'm in love with the IDEA of space engineers. There's no other game out there like it...yet. But the competition is getting closer, and I think by the time they finally (presumably) fix the game, it may just be one among many.

    For now, there are simply too many other good games out there to sit around waiting for Thursday to disappoint. I keep up on the updates, but I'm happily entertained elsewhere until (and if) they fix this mess.
     
    • Agree Agree x 8
  4. P. Kerman Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    164
    I can’t help but hope that you are wrong but you make a convincing case and you are not the only one who sees the dangers of early access.

    Just yesterday I posted this little joke:
    Turns out it was not much of a joke or one at all. I really have this dream for space engineers and I really hope it doesn't end up being a joke on all of us.

    So farewell. I am going to miss your creations and Killer Vanilla.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2017
    • Like Like x 3
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  5. Burillo Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    648
    are there any competitors for SE though? i remember trying Empyrion, ended up getting a refund. Avorion or Rimworld look kinda-sorta like SE but not really. does anything else out there have the same sort of physics sandbox + scripting going on? i mean, you guys obviously like working MP, PvP/PvE, more in-depth survival, research progressions and all that, but i don't give a rat's ass about any of those. i keep hearing about the supposed "competitors" to Space Engineers, yet none of them provide what SE does, to me at least.
     
    • Agree Agree x 8
    • Like Like x 2
  6. hellokeith Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    335
    "Most Recent" category of reviews on Steam says it best. So many people love the idea of the game but left due to the ever-worsening bugs. It's like watching someone you love dying of drug addiction..
     
    • Agree Agree x 10
  7. beelzerob Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    429
    The closest one I've seen (besides Empyrion, which is like SE-lite) is Planet Nomads. It has terrain deformation and block building of bases and ships. The downside...not even early access yet. :( anyway, check it out
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. Forcedminer Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,223
    if it wasn't for the modding community I'd of left ages ago. :D

    now all the mods and planets i enjoyed are mostly purple and broken. :'D

    and the landing gears on planets still cause ships to float off without logical reason :|
    almost always ruining a new game and landing with the planetary lander
    At the start of every new game i have to disable battery auto-switching between recharge and discharge or else it'll run out of all power
    then disable the landing gears so it doesn't auto-lock then float off magically without reason........
    then fix wolfs with incorrect hit boxes ..........and crosshairs being off.............

    I do love SE but atm its feeling like a piece of fruit that has ripened..........but........what happens to ripened fruit?
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
  9. Spets Master Engineer

    Messages:
    3,209
    I stopped playing SE a while ago... waiting... hopping it get better... fun... functional...
    I only do some stuff in Creative from time to time... even though I wish I have more armor blocks... that never come...
    I don't know, I tried to start survival again, but.. I got bored pretty fast :/ Is like something is missing but I don't know what is exactly, maybe a lot...
    Well, anyways, I'm not gaming too much this days, just ArmA, a few casual games, Astroneer, and waiting for Hellion now.
    3 years trying to calm down the rage of some trolls, showing what you can do with this game, defending it saying it is an EA, getting called blind dumb fanboy and shit. And then when I have some criticism, I get called hater and troll... hilarious, because that is what I was doing to the complainers too somehow ... ¬¬
    Maybe is just us, waiting for something that is not even planed for this title, overhyped, seeing the potential and unlimited possibilities that are actually not that possible, or hard to make.
    Maybe this is it, the game is finished, and they are just polishing some bugs, no more features, no more blocks, no more dreams, move on, bye!
     
    • Agree Agree x 11
    • Informative Informative x 1
  10. sammyvoncheese Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    151
    This.

    I stopped playing around this time last year. I still come back like a junky, checking the change log, logging in every quarter to see if I can jump back in yet. Beta seemed like such a huge thing, I thought things would change, EA was over, time to come back... lol....
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  11. PyreStarite Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    559
    Every time I would start a new survival world, I would just end up leaving again very soon after I try to build a mining rover only for it to start break dancing like Micheal Jackson, and aircraft would just fly hopelessly away into space. I rarely touched rotor turrets or other multigrids because of the horror stories I kept hearing about them. The only thing I really could do was to just stick with the basic single grids and try to improve their aesthetic and system engineering, but it makes it extremely hard to stand out between the gawdlike creations of the bigger creators and every death cube on the workshop. I definitely got my money out of the game, not nearly as much as everyone else here, however. I did enjoy coming up with the things I built and did not get to building, my favorite being my signature ALM, but with each update more and more of my items would break, whether it being not-so-simple missile launchers or vehicle wheels just locking up.

    What I want to know is; what actual games could potentially fill the hole SE left? I want to hear from as many as possible what others have in mind. Examples I keep hearing repeated would be;
    Avorion
    Rimworld (Not at all like SE, but whatever)
    Hellion
    Planet Nomads
    Empyrion
    Starmade
    Space Pirates and Zombies 2
    Fortresscraft?
    Osiris? (I'm just skimming through the Steam Store at this stage)
    Interstellar Rift
    Starbound!

    I played Starbound, its ok the last time I checked, but no actual ship building. Just upgrading. I think that what we may be looking for is an actual ship builder like SE, Avorion, and Depths.

    What I always wanted to see in a game, or back then when I wanted to make it myself but no such skill now, is a game very reminiscent of Advanced Wars in a very New World Colony scenario similar to what is presented in Civ Beyond Earth (Yeah, I know, not that fabulous of a game) with base building similar to that of starcraft but where you could customize the units from top to bottom, all the way from the gun, the engine, the armor, to how many are in a unit, effecting cost and power. That is what I wanted to see when I was younger, and I would still like to see such a game today. Not very like SE but still.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  12. PLPM Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    841
    I´ve had five fleet rebuilds in my life with SE;

    The first fleet were massive dreadnoughts with small ship turrets, then a change to stacking rocket launchers disabled it, the fleet was useless.

    The second fleet came after the default turrets, large ships relying on huge hangars and massive defenses but being as light as I could make them, they became obsolete when interior blocks were made five times lighter than normal armor.

    The third fleet was all about being ridiculously cheap, light and having as many guns on the front as possible, I miss those great ships, but they were extremely crude.

    The fourth fleet was for MP and it used Mepex weapons, it is still my biggest achievement in firepower and cheapness combined, but it was not vanilla... I needed a fleet that was, so the 5th came to be.

    The fifth fleet is... was on development, with only two ships with frontally printed PMWs on its repertory. The making of this ships and the evolving of their design was what kept me going for years, making the best of the best. However a couple of weeks ago projectors were broken, and everything I worked on with the missiles was undone (doubly so now with the recent welder nerf). I wasn´t angry at the time, just disilussioned, but I wasn´t going to blame it on the game, instead, I would just wait for the devs to give us something to make up for our pain, to work with to forget the bugs, like good old times...

    I waited for a week... A new skybox which isn´t even accurate and for my taste, it´s too distracting. No problem I can´t like everything that comes out, such is life.

    I waited another one... Mirrored wheels, but wheels (which are the only worthwhile thing of planets) are still a pain and frustration to work with... Well, shame, next week should be great, they must be holding off something just around the next corner!

    Here comes the third... lens flares... The single, LEAST important aspect of a game, a good game, is graphics, gameplay is above everything else, even more so in a sandbox like SE...

    It was then and there I just decided to not even keep trying... not until I see a REAL update, not just bugfixing or eye candy.
     
    • Agree Agree x 7
    • Like Like x 2
    • Late Late x 1
  13. The Churrosaur Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    744
    This. So much this. I... just can't find anything that scratches the SE itch for me. Maybe the merges are broken, maybe the pistons and rotors are temperamental and the wheels are insane, maybe the programmable block API needs work, maybe some of the new models still need tweaking- and in fact they do they all do. They're all broke as fuck.

    But
    there's no other game that does it: that has mechanization, and planets, pressurization, destruction physics, a workshop, and PBR lighting- where I can build and detail the bridge of my starship cross-grid to the 0.5 meter scale and fill it with articulating ingame LCD panels populated by fucking ingame C# scripting support- and that, despite controversy of opinion over things like the new blocks and lens flare, looks really fucking good doing it. It's everything I've ever dreamed of since building lego spaceships as a child.

    I can't say you're wrong- @iN5URG3NT @Spets @Whiplash141 -because you're not. None of you are. Everything you've said is perfectly valid, and I completely understand your decision. It just makes me sad: because I love this game in the same way that we all did, at least at one point. I want it to succeed, and part of that is having a playerbase of awesome content creaters. I guess I'm just scared, really. I'm scared that in all the keen hate, all the negative reviews, and workshop contributors leaving the community- KSWH will just decide that the game is no longer worth it, and give up. Maybe it's an irrational fear, but God I would hate to see it happen.

    I've had a lot of fun with you guys- building, dogfighting, writing lore. Maybe my naiveté will bear fruit and I'll see you on the other side; if not, it's been fun.
     
    • Agree Agree x 8
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  14. Lord Commissar Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    848
    I would agree with @The Churrosaur

    I cam out of minecraft for SE because SE promised me everything i could only dream of in minecraft - actually making it to space, stuff that actuall has physics and moves, and other awesomeness. I've gotten into KSP and i love every bit of it, but KSP is not the sandbox dream kit that SE can be. I love its in depth physics, but it's not for making dreadnoughts and other beautiful sci-fi creations. I tried out Avorion and wound up returning it - after the physics of SE and KSP it just feels like Newtonian heresy to play. there's no interiors, and you have to level up to get to the good stuff. I NEVER played SE for the gameplay. I couldnt care less about its lack of story (it lets me make my own). I'm only here because it's an art studio where I can actually crash my legos together and not have to clean them up later - in fact, it rewards me for finding new ways to destroy my legos.

    Theres really nothing that compiles everything that SE does into one game.

    HOWEVER.....

    What i am afraid of is that eventually, someone is going to do just that. they're going to make SE, and they're going to do it better. I worry that i'll have to start over, in a new community, with new ships. Avorion and Empyrion are all younger than SE, and i wouldn't be surprised if their popularity isn't due to SE giving the genre attention. I know Avorion in particular seems to feed off of those who are fed up with SE these days.

    You know what, that's actually what scares me more. not that someone will make a better SE, but that someone goes to a game like Avorion not because it has better features, but because it simply runs better and people are fed up with Keen. Then if i want to stay in the same community that i've come to know and love being in, i'll be forced to settle for something less.

    Avorion has shown so far that they are extremely good at listening to their community. In the beginning, I saw the same in Keen. over time, though, it seems like they've drifted away from the community. patches started coming out with things like cyberhounds and stuff people never asked for. meanwhile, the stuff that mattered was neglected. This last patch illustrates that. Lens flares when all we want are fixes for merge blocks. I understand a merge fix might take a while, but at least tell us you're working on it. i'm happy to wait so long as i know a solution is coming. For example, you told us you were working on a fix for armor blocks after no one liked the texture. that was awesome, and i think it stopped a lot of people from complaining. so communicate with us and let us know! the less the community hears, the more negative fearmongering it's going to feed, and then people are going to run away.

    I'm holding on to SE because right now there's no better mix and i still hold some hope, but i'm concerned that the community is going to run away far sooner than i want to, and i'll be making ships for nothing.
     
    • Agree Agree x 6
    • Like Like x 1
  15. Bullet_Force Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    348
    Space Engineers has the potential to be a really interesting PVP ship combat game. It has all the things that make it interesting such as the ability to design your own combat ships and weapons, the ability to code your own guidance scripts and run them in multiplayer and it has a resource system that allows for supply/demand economics.

    The problem is the devs though only seem to care for the people that want to play PVE or single player. In 3+ years of development there is still only two basic forms of weapons rockets and Gatling guns. As well as this the speed limit of 100m/s (equivalent to 360km/h) is incredibly slow for even a regular modern day transport plane let alone a futuristic space ship. They need to address these issues.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  16. Dwarf-Lord Pangolin Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,597
    @iN5URG3NT said it better than I could. The magic has gone out of Space Engineers for me, particularly after I realized one thing still hadn't changed after more than three years:

    Physics in Space Engineers is a pain in the ass.

    And when you have a sandbox game built around physics, that's not a little problem, that's a huge problem, because it makes a core element of the game that you can't avoid a chore instead of fun. But it's a problem the developers don't seem to recognize. We keep seeing them talk about how they're going to improve the physics, but I've started to realize that when they talk about improving the physics, they're not willing to improve it the way it needs to be done.

    And that's by fudging it. Just fudge the damn physics. I don't care if the physics simulation is realistic, I just want my damn ships to stop exploding. Make it work. I want a rotor that rotates on one axis; is the wobble realistic? Probably. Does it make the game fun? Hell no! Dump it. If that means using an entirely new physics system, then go get one. If the game's in beta and you haven't gotten one yet, what the hell have you been waiting for? We've been telling them for years -- literal, not figurative, years -- that unless the game's physics were stable, it wouldn't work out.

    They are not stable. It is not working out. And the incredibly random changes that are coming out have caused me to lose all remaining faith that they have some idea of where they're going with this. There is no coherent vision for the game at Keen, and I blame that in no small measure on the philosophy they've had with regard to mods, which has been "we'll give you the basic tools, and you guys can use mods to create your own coherent vision!" Uh, no?



    Personally, while I've enjoyed Avorion, I'm not sure it's headed in the direction I'm interested in. The building system in particular needs some help. I'm going to keep playing it and keep an eye on its future development, but the game I'm currently pinning my hopes on is Skywanderers. Because it has something Avorion doesn't have (ship interiors) and something Space Engineers doesn't have (moving parts that work). It's basically Minecraft, if someone took the coolest tech mods for it, but the things you build can actually move. Except they don't explode when they're not supposed to.

    Which is what I always wanted from Space Engineers. I didn't want fancy skyboxes. I didn't want AAA textures. I didn't want cookie-cutter weapon blocks, or cookie cutter engines, but weapon and engine systems you could add blocks to, to customize them. The sort of thing Starmade's had for years, and that Skywanderers is working on as a matter of course. The kind of stuff that rewards deep ship design; do you folks realize that the game has been available for over three years, and SE still doesn't have a system for modifying a ship's engines?! If I want to increase a ship's power, I need to play Tetris with the engines! And then bury them under armor, because in this block based game, ever-so-many blocks are not blocky.

    Of course, both Avorion and Skywanderers are titles that are in early stages of development; Skywanderers isn't even in early access yet, so who knows how that'll turn out. But at this point I don't feel like I have a lot to lose.

    Space Engineers has suffered from its own variation of Achilles and the Tortoise: the more finished SE gets, the closer it's gotten to being what I want it to be. But the closer it's gotten to being finished, the more apparent it's become that some of the things it fundamentally needs in order to be what I want it to be are never going to happen.
     
    • Agree Agree x 13
  17. ShadedMJ Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    217
    I'm not trying to pick on you, but I am usually towing the line of PVP cannot be fixed until single player is fixed first.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  18. bigsteve Trainee Engineer

    Messages:
    90
    Dont u just loce people how try to do made things with a physics engine and expect it to play nice....
     
  19. PLPM Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    841
    I wish they had just "hard" codded how physics blocks work, no wobly wobly, just grounded code that can´t go wrong, and work from there out for such blocks... not trying the opposite way.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2017
    • Agree Agree x 4
  20. iN5URG3NT Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,132
    Sorry for the depressing post guys, but I felt I had to say something.

    First of all, while there may be no more Hyperion Systems in SE, I still love building spaceships. I guess I have SE to thank for that. There will be more space building games and I hope to see you guys in the future.

    I absolutely agree with the guys who have said there is nothing like SE. That is totally true. If it worked properly it would be unstoppable. But... it doesn't work properly. If you coldly consider the Unique Selling Points of SE, things don't look as good.

    • You can build PMW - An absolute stunner of a feature. Christ, the hours I've put in designing launchers and missiles/torpedoes. This is probably my favourite thing about SE. The whole arms race has been brilliant. Trying to get the first of it's kind to "market", wondering what mad new designs are coming soon from other ship builders, hassling Whip for new code, asking the Survival guys about armour, cost and efficiency, it's been really fun. But... Right now, most PMW designs are broken and the ones that work are very simple and inaccurate. Not only that, the chances of being able to actually use them in a battle are slim as even in SP, lag and bugs will stop any meaningful battling. So often have debates about PMW been had, but the vast majority of scenarios are theoretical only. So, can we really consider that a USP?
    • Huge, realistic planets - I was never that excited about planets, but I enjoyed the engineering challenges they brought. But.. Right now, wheels are temperamental AF, there is no aerodynamics, the NPC's are bland and uninteresting and once you've left a planet, there is no reason to go back. This ate up a lot of programming time I believe and it's not hard to see that at least some of this time could have been better spent. Is this really a USP? If it is, it's not going to be for long, Planets Nomads EA is soon. I'm skeptical about it, but since it's built from a planet first perspective, I'd say there is a fair chance the planets will work better.
    • Custom Interiors - Never my favourite part of a build, but still a cool feature. Some of the interior designs on the Workshop, especially @Avaslash and @Lord Commissar, are outstanding. But... What reason is there for these interiors? Pressurisation's implementation has been mediocre, even before it was removed by default, as there is bugger all reason to take your helmet off anyway. Not only that, it's unlikely you will have enough crew to fill the control stations on account of MP performance and it not like anyone really expects NPC engineers now. Others will do this soon, such as Planet Nomads.
    • The Workshop - Probably tied with PMW as my favourite feature. For a long time, building ships for the WS was literally the only thing I did with my gaming PC. Particular highlights were the introduction of guided missiles by @Whiplash141 and the blitz of new designs after planets arrived. The "Europa Campaign" was arguably the most fun metagame experience I've ever had. FIGHT THE BIRD! :D But... This feature undoubtedly sold copies of SE and so it will be done by others. Empyrion's is already online and Avorion's is coming soon. Given the most popular ships on the Workshop are pretty ones and replicas, Avorion is going to do well here I think. Seriously, check out the screenshots. Dat Normandy... Wow.
    • The Programming Block - Regarded by me as a mysterious but magical block, this is probably the USP that SE can keep for the longest. However, Planet Nomads has a PB as a stretch goal, so if the game does well, this USPs days are numbered.

    So this is really the problem, the potential, the idea, the possibilities are amazing, but they are not really realistic. Most of the great stuff is hamstrung by bugs and poor implementation. Not only that, others are going to do similar things, some of which will be here in the next few months.

    I'm enjoying Avorion, but like others have said, it's not SE and it lacks SE's coolest features. But it is an actual game with objectives and depth, it is stable and it is fun. The build mode, while not so intuitive at first, is amazing over time and allows some fantastic hull detailing. Considering it was made in four years by one guy and his mate, it's pretty good. It's a perfect example of why having a plan and direction is absolutely essential. It is a bit of a filler though, until the arrival of...

    Planet Nomads. Will be EA soon, and like all EA, should be treated with skepticism. However, this appears to me, to be the best upcoming alternative. Should they finish the stretch goals and critically, make it work properly, it will have virtually everything SE does but better.

    The lore ain't over Terran, keep your dirty hands off Ceres... :D
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2017
    • Agree Agree x 7
    • Like Like x 2
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  21. Timberwolf Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    246
    My issues with Space Engineers have kind of always been a lack of features, mechanics or blocks, rather than broken things. (not to say there's no broken stuff that bothers me)

    Armor is in a weird place. Lack of proper and longer ranged ship to ship weapons means that point defence and PMWs fill that void. The current turrets are insufficient to defeat more than 1 layer of heavy armor, while a PMW requires a dozen layers of heavy armor, light armor, spacing and non-deforming blocks in order to tank them.
    Did I mention how I dislike that the armor, despite being called "armor", deforms easier than that colored clay that kids play with?

    The modded projectile (either chemical propellant or gauss cannon/railgun) turrets I've tried are nowhere near what you'd expect. This I fear has nothing to do with the modders, but everything with how the system is set up at Keen's end.

    A lack of ship subsystems and components means a big ship will end up with more room than it knows what to do with. Not to mention that crewmen other than the pilot don't really have anything to do other than repair hull breaches, operate turrets or pilot drones or fighters out of a hangar bay.
    The absence of the ability to put multiple blocks into the same space like in Medieval Engineers, means you need more space for blocks and items whom would otherwise not be in each other's way.
    The fact that everything is in a block format has always been a bit of bother. Especially when trying to achieve a rounded shape or trying to squeeze in that last block.
    Not to mention that the whole lighting system is turned upside down. You used to be able to see outside using the sunlight, while needing artificial light inside. Now it's the other way around.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Like Like x 1
  22. Burillo Junior Engineer

    Messages:
    648
    i just checked out planet nomads... that looks like SE meets No Man's Sky. i pray it lives up to the hype (and this is coming from an atheist!).
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  23. Vrmithrax Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,017
    I can totally empathize with this thread... For me, it started going off the rails (*sniffle* rails *sniffle*) when a sharp turn was made in development, and suddenly massive resources were diverted from getting the SPACE part of the game fixed, and dumped instead into planets. Something that wasn't even on the initial roadmap for the game. I can't help think that if all of the manpower thrown at planets would have been kept concentrated at fixing the physics and rolling in other planned features, we would be playing a nice stable game right now. Adding planets in later, maybe as a Space Engineers 2 or Planet Engineers, would have been preferable.

    I blame No Man's Sky. That glorious trailer of a player seamlessly going from space to planet and back, came at a horrible time in the early access stage of SE. Suddenly there was a deluge of "we need planets!" suggestions that flooded the early forums. Can't really blame the devs for changing course and going where they thought the interest (and money) was, other than feeling that the impact to overall system complexity was massively underestimated when they steered the coding canoe up a new river. It was one of those moments where you see just how dangerous the early access system can be for a development path.

    Even with all of that, I still hold out hope that one day SE will be the stable and fun building experience I hoped for when I bought into the idea almost 3 and a half years ago. Someday, Lord Klang will hold no power over me. But right now, with the way I build things, that bastard Klang rules me with an iron fist.
     
    • Agree Agree x 8
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  24. AutoMcD Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,369
    Expecting things to function as intended and having them explode instead, been my biggest gripe since the beginning as it still plagues the game. Especially wheels, even when they do work, they don't work WELL. Whatever fundamental change to the engine that needs to happen, they should quit beating around the bush and get to it. Even if that means scrapping the damn engine and starting over. As a customer, I have no attachment to the platform they use or how long it took to fix it up. Just the end product. Seriously tackle it because it makes the difference between SE being permanently early access or a game you can actually call beta.
    But I think the writing is on the wall that they called it beta already.
    Even multiplayer, they did a pretty big push on it but if I start a server and someone joins it's unplayable for them.
    And you're right, I love the idea of SE. And I love building ships, sharing them on the Workshop. But that's where it stops usually. I'd love to play survival, use teamwork to build a ship. But it ends in tears because of bugs and rough edges that could have easily been polished by now. Like, here's a low ball, how about a landing gear that has shock dampening like the suspension block? That's a basic purpose of its function isn't it? Instead it tries to be a crumple zone that disappears because the damage model is weird. Imagine how that goes when it's a ship you spent 30 hours on, just demolished into the ground because it got parked hard. And then the armor does nothing to stop the more expensive things from popping out of existence. Or a friend disconnecting with a backpack full of parts sets you back another two hours of mining.

    I did set SE down for a good 8 months or so. And now landing gears finally seem fixed! (As in not exploding)
    So that's cool.
    Might set it down again soon. The new blocks really helped modernize the look but they're still behind the curve. And you're right, all of things we look past for YEARS because we love the idea of SE.


    My other favorite game is actually KSP. The realistic nature of how things work is just amazing, and while it hasn't always been perfect.. the way the team pounces on bugs is amazing. Everything works exactly as expected. It sets the bar pretty high for early access games. It's worlds apart from SE but I wish I could mash them together.
    I want to build as big as I want, but also the realistic physics, the fuel weight, the orbital mechanics.
    A lop sized off-center thruster should cause torque, etc. And add in what survival at it's core is: gathering materials to build.

    Anyways I kinda feel like SE is why I would prefer most games get finished before I give them money. I certainly got my money's worth in terms of play time, and there's a wonderful community here. But it's been a somewhat frustrating ride. Early access is popular right now but it's hard to find this sort of patience for more titles if they will be half-baked. As an example, Astroneer looks great and I instantly lost a weekend playing it. But it's got quirks, had a rover fall thru the planet. Hard to want to invest the time in when it will surely be lost in an update. I'm tired of looking past things not working right.

    Edit: I think the "unpolished edges" bother me even more than the straight-up bugs. These are the things that jump out at you when you actually PLAY the game, and shouldn't be too hard to implement or fix. When Xocliw or Rexxar do a stream, they end up with a laundry list of problems, suggestions, etc. And then it goes nowhere. That stream where Marek played SE? He looked like it was the first time he touched it in 6 months, and suddenly attention was given to player weapons and other details he pointed out.
    If I were to point a finger, it would be at Marek.

    MAREK.
    Play your game, lead your team, repeat.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2017
    • Agree Agree x 9
    • Like Like x 2
  25. Frigidman Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    306
    I try to still hold onto faith that someday, this will all get sorted out and finally work... but I went to the sidelines a while back for exactly the whole lot described in the OP. (I've been spending my building fun time in Empyrion)

    I hope for the idea, fear the worst, expect nothing anymore :(

    Good OP read.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Like Like x 1
  26. Sentinel-Ghost Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    108
    I agree with most of the points made in this thread...sadly.

    I think i had the most fun with this game back before thruster damage was a thing, when multiplayer servers were first implemented. Good times. Since then... the game has seemed directionless...

    I strongly believe planets were a big mistake. Instead we could of had multiple regions filled with asteroid fields of varying types, nebulae, shattered moonlets, comets and roaming npc organisms (space whales :)). Planets relegated to a pretty backdrop - nothing more.

    I've been holding out for more block types - seriously WHY haven't we got more slope variations? (3x1, 4x1, 5x1 etc) Where are the big weapons? Instead we're given space balls, saberoids and lense flares. Why Keen...WHY!!

    I've yet to find another game that has quite the same 'feel' as Space Engineers, but at the same time... there is sooo much that is missing, frustrating and disappointing.

    #MakeSEGreatAgain
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2017
    • Agree Agree x 5
    • Like Like x 2
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  27. JD.Horx Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    1,032
    To be short, SE took me on a nice ride. I had a lot of fun, to be exact, 1100 hours of fun but I am lowering my expectations for the time being, I already stopped playing regularly several weeks ago. I will check the change logs once in a while and maybe fire SE up every other week, but I am a bit disillusioned for now. If SE's time to shine will come, I'll be there.

    To add to the list of SE inspired games/copycats:
    Dual Universe

    A sandbox MP game that has no early access yet. Some gameplay show case videos are on YouTube if you are interested.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_Universe

    I hope this is no good bye guys. See you later.
     
    • Like Like x 5
    • Agree Agree x 4
  28. Bad Humour Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    116
    I throw in my thoughts: PLEASE KEEN WHAT ARE YOU DOING IN THERE, the medieval engineers team seems to have their game sorted and with direction but that is maybe because it had a 6 month bug fixing period and a rerelease. All I can think of is there is something fishy going on with SE dev team as things do not always seem to be going right

    but more to the point the reason why such a thread exists now is that Space Engineers is going downhill again it still is not cyber hounds level of low but its getting there soon if they do not pick it up again. Essentially before 1.172 I could use merge blocks, rotors, pistons, welders corner lights and expect them to work as I expected them to sure the physics blocks had their quirks but I understood how to work around them and I had to work around less as they fixed issues one after another (slowly) until 1.172 and onwards. Now rotors, pistons merge blocks, welders and even bloody armor deformations are broken. Don't know what happened but their good update streak has now ended and I am fed up with it and slowly loosing my patience.

    I have almost 1000 hours in this game and Ive played my 20 bucks worth but I was planning to keep playing which is what disappoints me now. The thought that I might have to find something similar SE after all I have built up in reputation, skills and friendships that might come to an end if the dev team doesn't get their shit together soon. I guess that's why we stick with space engineers, the community; Rewarding if you try something crazy and new and supporting if you just started and have uploaded the first thing to the workshop. Maybe the best community I have ever seen in a game.

    I hope the sirens are going off at KSH as I see here some of the core community members starting to give up on the game which is not a good sign.
     
    • Agree Agree x 10
  29. Me 10 Jin Apprentice Engineer

    Messages:
    463
    I get the impression that (and I hope I'm wrong) Keen is simply applying whitewash and will call SE "done" in a few months without addressing any of the issues that cripple gameplay. I find it hard to conjure the desire to sink another 1000+ hours into such a game.
     
    • Agree Agree x 7
  30. Forcedminer Senior Engineer

    Messages:
    2,223
    i wonder what it'll be like when it finally reaches its end and stops getting updates?


    because.........at that point modders can rejoice being able to create mods without having to maintain them reach week.

    se is the only game i've come across so far with such a massive grave yard of dead mods....
    mods just plain broken and/or purple.

    sure its not the game devs responsibility to maintain the mods........but se has such a massive graveyard of dead mods.

    And i've no problem admitting mods are keeping me in the game......
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
Thread Status:
This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.