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The State of SE: My Thoughts

Discussion in 'General' started by iN5URG3NT, Feb 20, 2017.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Sir_Moodz Apprentice Engineer

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    I don't know what else got said here, but the game only just got into beta. Beta is the stage where you fix bugs, alpha is where you create bugs. so stop complaining about bugs, if in one year there are still this many bugs, Then you can complain.
     
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  2. xxSWxxNinja Trainee Engineer

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    Sir_Moodz I feel like this thread has actually been a very civilized expression of people's opinions both for and against the state of the game, rather than just an out right group of people complaining.

    It is always healthy for a community to openly discuss opinions and feelings especially when it centres on a title we all clearly want to see improved and finished.

    Regarding Alpha / Beta etc, they don't mean what a lot of people think they mean and have been horribly twisted out of context because of the rise of EA titles. From the moment you release your title to the general public you should be in a constant bug fix and most importantly communication cycle.

    A lot of titles do this really well (Subnautica, Factorio) and some not so well. Additionally KEEN themselves have been on a "Bug fixing" spree with varying results for a long long time before their BETA release.
     
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  3. Frigidman Apprentice Engineer

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    In all honestly... I would absolutely love for them to just sit down and fix what they got. I don't need new/more features. I just want something solid and working with what is supposed to be there.

    However watching, witnessing, KEEN's Bug Fixing Sprees usually end up as:
    • Fixing some things that were broken a couple months prior,
    • Fixing a bunch of things no one ever heard of before,
    • Breaking things that were not broken (yet),
    • Adjusting things that should never have been touched.
    - Rinse / Repeat every other month -

    Its a vicious cycle with KEEN... one where I see 'progress' taking more steps backward, than forward. Almost like they do not understand what they have, and blast changes without vetting what exactly those ~fixes~ will do. And when they do break something that was JUST working fine... they never bother hotfixing that, and wait a month or two down the line to revisit fixing what broke.

    How many times as something been broken and fixed in the last +- years? Do they just deliberately break things in a cycle, so they have something to 'fix' again and make a patch note about? Only to hold off breaking it again in a month? One begins to wonder these things.

    I guess I've been getting spoiled on games like Empyrion (Subnautica, Astroneer, et al) where there is so much positive production, that it makes it all look 'easy to do'.

    Ah well. I still 'hope' for SE. Its just been a long loonnnngg time of seeing a trend and feeling like I'm dreaming.
     
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  4. Commander Rotal Master Engineer

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    Let's not try to divide players into big names and no names, that never ends well.
     
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  5. iN5URG3NT Senior Engineer

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    This was not my intention. I just wanted to point out that a lot of the people with concerns in this thread are quite experienced in SE and that this is not the typical newbie rant thread.
     
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  6. AutoMcD Senior Engineer

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    Of course not. The point was simply that we have a lot of long-time players here, this isn't just kneejerk posts from newbies.

    Edit: jinx
     
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  7. Echillion Senior Engineer

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    1,334
    2330 hrs ingame Played SP/MP/CR

    Bought the game:
    November 2014: Pistons,Rotors and Landing gears broken!
    February 2017: Pistons,Rotors and Landing gears STILL broken enough said.....Mic dropped!...
     
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  8. Potter Apprentice Engineer

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    496
    The only club here is people who care about the game, and don't want to see it die. I think everyone here is a member.

    Generally I completely agree, but that gets me thinking...

    Didn't Medieval Engineers nearly die? As I recall, that game peaked a while ago and they had it on life support before the relaunch. I'm with you on that game; the only reason I bought it was to support Keen. But when it clearly had peaked and was on its death bed, they put a lot of resources into relaunching it and making it better. As several people have said, the game now has leadership and a direction.

    SE is Keen's cash cow. Maybe this is some SUPER wishful thinking, but wouldn't it make sense for them to view SE as even more important than ME?

    And they always have been terrible at communication.. Maybe, just maybe, there is still a chance that we will see a bug free release with significant performance gains?

    I think that the life of some of these bugs has been insanely long, and the game does not have a clear direction. They definitely need to explain their current focus to us, as it's really not clear and it's super terrifying to those who hold the game in high regard. But I think I'm going to hold off on giving up. Could be just my inner Space Engineers fanboyism coming up with this logic, but right now that makes sense to me.
     
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  9. Renegrade Trainee Engineer

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    Agree; but I'd go further and say it's NEVER too early to fix bugs. In fact, the best time to fix bugs is before they're written in the first place. I get the feeling that they didn't really design around objects in relative motion to other objects, and hence the vengeful visits of Clang when pistons/rotors/etc become involved. Design is still critical!
     
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  10. xxSWxxNinja Trainee Engineer

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    I don't really play ME at all, as I said I only got it to support KEEN (Only 2hrs on record), so I cannot speak from first hand experience (Hopefully others can?) but I do keep up with the patch content they receive and I must say they get a lot of content and what appears to be solid fixes.

    I completely agree but where as in the mainstream type of game development often on titles with publisher / distributor backing this type of internal bug swatting is done by large in house or external testing companies (Babel Media is an example of an external testing house). Where as in EA, we the general public tend to be the first line of defense in finding issues. For an EA title bugs are to be expected, it's what the development team do about them and how they communicate their plans is what matters.
     
  11. Potter Apprentice Engineer

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    496
    Same here, I don't think I ever installed it hahah. But they do get good content, and the game has a direction. I see no logical reason that Keen would allow Space Engineers to fall by the wayside if they were willing to give that much for Medieval Engineers to make a comeback the way it did.

    I know it's wishful thinking, but it's all I've got for this game right now.

    Also, the last time we had a delayed update like the one today, it was a pretty meaty patch. So I'm hoping pretty hard right now :D
    --- Automerge ---
    This. This. This.

    I feel like I would be calling everyone in this thread crazy if Keen just TALKED TO US.
     
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  12. tankmayvin Senior Engineer

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    2,863
    @Commander Rotal

    I don't think it is in any way problematic to say that because a big part of the game is community driven, that some players have a disproportionate impact on the game. I'm not going to tag anyone but pretty much anyone who has delved into SE uses at least one of these guys stuff.

    Programming makes this game playable and actually gives it some design depth that sets it apart and above from other games. Practically speaking turning the potential of programming into something that has been meaningful to the player base has come from a handful of very productive players. I consider survival unplayable without either BARABAS or TIM and MMasters LCD program.

    Meaningful ship control has been written by a handful of people - gyro systems, rotor ovverrides, steering that actually works, etc, etc. The base game is shit without those things too.

    Meaningful weapon control systems (turrets, missiles, drone control) have been written by 3 people for free. That adds depth to a game whose combat is as shallow as a puddle otherwise.

    The stock ships utterly suck. There are a host of player made fleets that really give life to ship design, as well as a phenomenal number of less prolific designs and the like which actually give ship design some true META that doesn't exist otherwise.

    You, yourself have a bit of notoriety for pushing mega/exascale building in SE.

    Communities on average tend to recognize and reward accomplishment. That's good at natural.It's not really elitist, it's just a statement of fact about community dynamics and different levels of capability and involvement. As far as gaming communities go SE has been relatively not toxic nor elitist.

    It's pretty obvious from this thread, among others than the most prolific of creators are dropping out of SE for a variety of reasons. Communities tend to have pillars and those pillars are eroding.

    There have also been all sorts of community focused design competitions, mini games, etc, etc. They've all failed in the end because the game cannot support them.
     
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  13. xxSWxxNinja Trainee Engineer

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    Perhaps Michael Bay himself is uploading this one ;)
     
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  14. Sir_Moodz Apprentice Engineer

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    You can't compare SE with something like Subnautica, not only has it been anything but bug free, it also updates every few months instead of weekly. This way you never see 90% of the bugs.
    SE was also never designed with a clear goal, they have basically been looking at user requests and develop from there, that is why so many features look random. They also work on several completely different things at a time, causing lots of random bugs to appear here and there.
    And lastly, the reason why bugs with rotors and similar can't be fixed is because the physics engine/logic they use makes it nearly impossible to get it working right. They could, but you would see your sim speed drop by half probably. Good, bug free physics cost a lot of cpu power.
     
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  15. xxSWxxNinja Trainee Engineer

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    Sir_Moodz I like your directness but I feel your missing the point a little, I think a lot of people know that the engine KEEN used to make SE will never be flawless and wonderful. But what people would appreciate is maybe a little communication on where KEEN intend to be with SE when it's finished, where is it going? Instead we get changes made to welders (which make them pretty useless) intended to fix a problem KEEN see's existing yet the community who play the game doesn't.

    Additionally Subnautica dev teams use of Trello to simplistically provide their EA followers with an open window into the games direction is vastly different to the lack of info we currently have. Does anyone know anything about what future there is for SE besides a much needed UI change they teased?
     
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  16. tankmayvin Senior Engineer

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    2,863
    As for what I think of the state of SE:

    Well lets talk about what SE is and isn't. At it's core SE is a virtual block-builder that has a pretty sophisticated level of detail and physics simulation that gives you a really and deep design space for your creations. That is to say it is one of the best virtual lego sets, if not the best for creating virtual machines, virtual model ships, etc. It's got moving parts (that sorta work), it's got programming for the full depth of engineering and it's got a world you can making things interact with.

    Great. Minus the bugs, block issues, physics glitches that horribly hamper the extent to which most people can, or are willing to build up to. Womp.

    What SE isn't, is an actual game in the sense where you accomplish some sort of task in the game world and are rewarded with/by something in the game world. SEs core "game" is survival and it is very flat. You do one thing and that is collect resource-build-collect resource-build in a very, very, very sterile world until you reach post scarcity. That's it. Now because of the engineering depth, this very linear process gets drawn out and complicated. At the core the gameplay is puddle deep.

    And so, at the end of the day games that prioritize gameplay and incorporate designing things as just one small aspect of the overall game will ultimately give you more apparent satisfaction. There is a limit to how many warships you can design until you can't headcannon your way around the issue that there is nothing to fight.

    Now lets be honest - SE does pretty well overall. I've played more hours in SE than most other games I've ever played. But part of that is because the design aspect is so incredibly time consuming, as is the building/grinding aspect in the core "game".

    In principle we could also have all sorts of cool PVP driven metagaming but again, the game doesn't support it.

    And so that brings us to the conclusion: SE has an amazing design space that is just badly marred by bugs at the physics level. It then never translates or utilize this amazing building system in a really fleshed out game. This is why SE has lost its way; it stopped being developed into a game in the conventional sense of having gameplay BEYOND designing and building.
     
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  17. xxSWxxNinja Trainee Engineer

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  18. Harrekin Master Engineer

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    3,077
    What have I started with my occasional sprinkling of salt?

    I got eaten for some of these opinions a few weeks ago...
     
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  19. High Ground Apprentice Engineer

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    This proves my point about lack of communication for updates. Changes are made, not documented, no reason given for said changes (wielders is a good example), and the community is left trying to figure out what is what and who's to blame.
     
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  20. AutoMcD Senior Engineer

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    2,369
    I can't disagree with this. And I had a thought today.. If it's true that Marek wants to just move on and concentrate on AI (like he's been doing), then maybe it's time for someone to pick up the SE ball and run with it. And by that I mean to sell the game to a different group of people with a fresh pot of motivation and ideas. If he's going to do this, the sooner the better. Apologies to team members who still have big dreams.. perhaps if you guys find the funding you can break off on your own.

    Copycat games are closing in, and it's only a matter of time before one of them nails the whole "you and your friends build as big as you want, and moving parts won't even explode" thing.
     
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  21. PLPM Junior Engineer

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    841
    You must we joking...
    There is a difference between guys who only posted on the update threads and demanded attention in the forums about "Yer game suks" years ago... AND, your most dedicated players; guys who "whiteknighted" the forums years ago against guys whinning about anything they hated, the same whiteknight guys who are now jumping in frustration at what Keen is doing with the game.

    Don´t give me the "Damned if they do, damned if they don´t"

    NONE of us hates keen, we love them and supported them for years, when the cyberhounds were introduced there were jokes and we complained at them, sure. But we didn´t care in the grand scheme of things, because we all make mistakes, and it was an honest one.

    But when we see Keen rushing for giving the game more bling-bling things WHILE breaking it even further... are we supposed to wave with a smile as this ship is steered into the icebergs?

    I won´t, and as we can see, most of whom love SE will neither, we care too much for this broken heap of features to allow that.
     
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  22. sacksquatch Trainee Engineer

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    Dude lol I was thinking the same thing. I've seen people get roflstomped for saying less. I think the last few patches really pissed people off. I say this because they certainly irritated me (welders). Then at the point the cornered animal is considering fight or flight - lens flares.

    Then it was on.

    Thousands of pilots sitting in their cockpits straining to see through poop smeared glass, made worse by the oldest parlor trick in the biz, the dreaded lens flare. Turrets everywhere suddenly turned toward Keen.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2017
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  23. PLPM Junior Engineer

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    Beta or not, Alpha or not... whatever it is, it´s obvious where the game is going and that it´s being neglected as a game, you simply DO NOT prioritize mirrored wheels, or lens flares, or new skybox over broken gameplay, you ABSOLUTELY do not.

    There used to be a lot of complains about the game being unplayable, you couldn´t mine, or you fell through planets, it was always something annoying in some situation, but far from making the game unplayable for everyone, but right now, everything seems to broken or **** compared to what it was previously, in an ALPHA build, a YEAR ago.

    *sniff* I miss the original mining speed we had three years ago, it feels like it was just yesterday *sniff*
     
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  24. Llessur Apprentice Engineer

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    I used to love when people would mention this stuff and people would scream "THIS IS ALPHA!" how things have changed.
     
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  25. PLPM Junior Engineer

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    LEL, it wasn´t you you silly, it´s the ongoing neglect of SE as a game.
     
  26. Dwarf-Lord Pangolin Senior Engineer

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    That was on my avatar. Because it was alpha. And in alpha, we got tons of changes that altered gameplay. Procedural generation, planets, NPCs, the list goes on and on. So when people said "hurr durr, dis game don't work," it was reasonable to add "yet." Because we'd already had major changes to the game's functioning, and giving Keen the benefit of the doubt was reasonable and appropriate.

    But this is not Alpha.

    THIS!

    IS!

    ... beta?? So now, we treat it like a beta. We emphasize core gameplay bugs, and core features that are either unfinished, or barely implemented. Because that's what beta is for.

    Plus, when people offered "criticism," half the time it was straight up calling Keen con men or scammers or worse. So yes, that tended to be received rather poorly for an entirely different reason.
     
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  27. AutoMcD Senior Engineer

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    The update thread is always full of crybabies, you can't make everyone happy. I barely check it anymore, I just watch Xoc unload the goods and I'm out. Those guys will argue about anything and everything.

    It looks like you just joined in December.. Did you know that for about 2 years straight your ship would turn into a crater when you unlocked the landing gear?
    YEARS. Landing gears were a plague. Same with rotors and pistons.
    I can admit, things have definitely gotten better. I just made a ship with rotors on thrusters that can aim vectored thrust. And it works!
    This time last year such a thing was impossible.

    Progress is being made.. but everything said in this thread is still true.
     
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  28. PLPM Junior Engineer

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    There´s no such progress.

    During a point of time rotors and pistons were extremely stable, the only issue was through changing sectors with speed mods and the subgrids getting teleported into the ship in return... but that was just an exception.

    Now, not only are things that have been broken, still broken. But stuff that had worked perfectly fine is now a pain to work with most of the time, the game could be extremely smooth on past versions now it´s just horrible. I still hate the icons for the upgraded block models, visuals over function in a menu and in icons that need to be clear is a damn bad decision. The effort making those icons could have gone somewhere else.

    *Edit*

    There´s obviously been improvements, but if I just picked some random SE files with what we have now a year ago, I´d think the game is still in alpha with tons of texture mods and with a lot of bugs and wheels even more broken...

    It´s actually sad now that I think about it.
     
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  29. chrisb Senior Engineer

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    1,460
    Its a shame, but I agree with the OP and many here regards SE. My only real sadness is, there isn't a game to take its place.

    I stopped playing and getting involved with anything SE related. I just moved on..

    I'll still keep watching though, there is always some hope, you never know..
     
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  30. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    It's a bit like the days of MySpace then Facebook came out. My...who? Yes. When someone perfects the genre... motivated by the millions in sales Keen achieved, SE will just get dropped by the core of players.

    It's a bit like having an unhappy wife. She'll put up with things for a while. Beg for changes. Start dating the mailman. Then simply leave you for greener pastures.

    I support what Keen is doing. I want them to be the 800lb gorilla in space sandbox games. But they are running out of time... and I don't think they realize it yet.
     
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