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The State of SE: My Thoughts

Discussion in 'General' started by iN5URG3NT, Feb 20, 2017.

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This last post in this thread was made more than 31 days old.
  1. Llessur Apprentice Engineer

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    100
    Yes I do agree there was a lot of over the top complaints I just find it funny how things have changed. On a side note why the sudden flip to Beta? Was this to get sales or something else? I have always heard people say Alpha is for features and Beta is bug fixing yet like many have said here there is a lot missing idk if its because I am newish to this whole EA thing and don't understand the terms or if they are just arbitrary. I am also curious about the trend of people saying you shouldnt complain because they let you pay to play it while its developed but isnt this something that has been around forever and even freely? I used to remember companies offering free betas and such all you had to do was sign up and essentially you played it and tested it for them and I never recalled this being deemed as such a VIP perk I do not understand at all :(
     
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  2. AutoMcD Senior Engineer

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    that fucking mailman gets around
     
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  3. sacksquatch Trainee Engineer

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    Oh I know. I got this game in Jan of 2016. That particular bug had been fixed when I joined. I just never cared to join the forum until recently, because any criticism was met with stout whiteknighting. Aint nobody got time fo dat. I mean, I don't lock landing gear to the ground right now, because it has a chance of falling into the planet, and exploding when you try to get it out. So not much has changed :p

    That's not to say I hate the game though. Who puts 1600 hours into a game they hate? The fact that I'm passionate about this game is the reason I care at all to criticize it. There are many games that I don't spend time typing on their forums, because I deem it a waste of time.

    I just want them to fix whatever is holding the game back. Whether that be personnel or technology, and let this bitch be the Queen already.

    I bought Empyrion first, believe it or not, but I only have 550 hours in that. Empyrion is cool and all, but you don't even have to think about where to put functional blocks. Thrusters pointing right at your fuel tanks? Sure! Not only will it not explode, but it will totally fly! I can't stand that so I purchased SE and loved building ships. LOVED IT DAMNIT!
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2017
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  4. Frigidman Apprentice Engineer

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    When I first read this thread, I was like "oh man, this guy is gonna get reamed by the other regulars... but I'll click the agree button to show my support for his guts".

    ... then more and more of the long timers chimed in with the same sentiments... and I was bedaffled. Why? Because I was ridiculed, taunted, pissed on and shat out months ago when I said anything of the sort. Rotal even jumped down me and my brothers throats during a livestream chat when we brought up *these exact issues* almost a year ago.

    So I went into the dark, lurking because I was unwanted for my opinions.

    Yet he we are.

    Ok, I'm gonna go back to lurking. You know... I still hope SOME DAY this game will get its crap together, despite the last year of zero forward progress.
     
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  5. sacksquatch Trainee Engineer

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    Don't I know you from somewhere? Hehe
     
  6. Titus Veridius Trainee Engineer

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    I agree with this article. I've been around since the beginning. Trying to play survival is like hitting your genitals with a hammer and expecting good things to happen despite physics.

    The State of the game is this.
    - multiplayer is not stable or playable after 3 years of work. It's arguably worse.
    - the features being added to the game are not necessary to conclude development.
    - it's not an unreasonable fear that the project won't be abandoned before there is a multiplayer.

    I have at any moment the magical ability to tell my friends to buy Space Engineers, and suddenly 5-9 copies of Space Engineers will be instantly bought on Steam. There are hundreds like me. We will tell our friends to buy this game and play with us when we are sure they aren't going to blame us for a game that doesn't work. The cash cow isn't fucking dead yet. Finish the fucking game. Make more money. Stop adding features that don't work.

    Thanks
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2017
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  7. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    4,801
    Timing is everything.

    Your criticism wasn't well received because it was premature. The bulk of the people on this thread have been around... for years. They have been patient and at that time assurances were being given out and the state of development was mostly reasonable. But events have changed and the tide has come in.

    Every single post in this thread is an opinion. People have the right to them and to change them when circumstances have changed. It's not hard to comprehend. Let me give you some advice. Opinions will change yet again if Keen gets back on track.
     
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  8. Dwarf-Lord Pangolin Senior Engineer

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    2,597
    Shocking. It's almost as if the game has had those same problems for almost a year, and still has them even after Keen decided it was time to enter beta.

    Oh wait.

    Alpha was alpha. The same stuff that was ok in alpha, because they were still figuring out what the game needed and how to do it, becomes less and less ok in beta. This is particularly true when the things they change in beta -- the ability of welders to print the things we can't move inside the ships, because of clang -- are fundamental to building almost anything interesting.

    Space Engineers' selling point, the thing that makes it worth playing instead of some other somewhat similar game, is the physics. That's all it really has over a bunch of other games. The physics is still borked, and welders -- which a lot of players use to get around trying to move stuff inside their ships because it'll make 'em explode -- are borked. Timers got borked. <ultiplayer is still borked. Are these things better? Yes. Are they better enough to no longer qualify as borked? Nope. Was all of this true a year ago? Heck, yes!

    Was it beta a year ago -- that is, was Keen signalling that they had the fundamentals in place and were starting to shift to a new phase in development?

    No.

    And that's why the janissaries are banging their kettles.
     
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  9. Commander Rotal Master Engineer

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    If i "jumped down your throat" it was probably because of your tone. Plus: if it was a year ago then the game was a little over 2 years old at that point. 2 Years, let's make it 2 and a half, is nothing in game development terms. As is 3 years, incidentally, except usually a game isn't labelled as Beta by this point. Which Keen has done.
    As stated above: timing (and tone) is/are everything, and changing circumstances allow for changed perspective and therefore changed oppinions. Humans aren't static Silent Hill constructs. If the game is in a bad place during Alpha after 2 years that's considered normal (in coding terms; i have my own hangups with gameplay decisions that have nothing to do with programming going back waaaay before that). If the game has the same problems, and WORSE, 3 years in and is now called a Beta, then something is wrong. Frankly, you'd likely see a lot more jumping and throating had they not pulled the "Beta"-bit. Why? Because of Keen's definition of the term. It basically amounts to "end-spurt". And i have yet to see significant improvements during "Beta" which is alledgely what they use it for.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2017
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  10. Sir_Moodz Apprentice Engineer

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    377
    You keep saying the game is close to unplayable because of all the bugs, but then I play the game and notice no bugs at all...weird. I have been playing on and off since day one, and the current state of the game has never been better.
     
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  11. Commander Rotal Master Engineer

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    Obviously it's subjective and depends on what you do. If you're in Multiplayer you're going to see those problems more than others, though even those issues sneak in. 'member when they tied ship acceleration to sim speed at the same time of tying maximum ship speed to Server Sim Speed? It affects singleplayer too. Ships that were already slow before due to their size have basically become immobile because moving sinks Sim Speed. It's not technically a "bug" but it's several steps down in terms of quality. Of course, many players like myself just circumvent bugs by force of habit now - you ain't finding many Rotors on my build (unless i use the Rotor Trick which routinely bites me in the butt), for example. Because they just don't work properly.
     
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  12. Sirad Trainee Engineer

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    20
    SE is the *only* Game that lags-to-the death on my Rig.

    4790@4.2Ghz,32G@1666,500G SSD,1070GTX all Parts Brand. Other Games like 'Star Shitizen', 'GTA5', 'Witcher' etc. run smooth and fine.

    So, (since we had the first 'it runs quite well on my rig and the state was never better so it must be logically your outdated old rig' post already) i strongly suggest what others suggested, in a quite rush this game has to be 'finished' till the christmas season (put the label 'Full release' on it whatever state its in so far) and afterwards do it like the good olde snoop dog said.

    I may have less Hours in playing than others but i have at least enough Hours in Software development to call a turd a turd if it smells like a turd.

    Once, there were times when Hardware was so limited that every Software Engineer needed skills to fullfil his task.
    Those times are long gone.
    anyone still Remembers Pinball Phantasies ? that Game ran smooth on a 286/12Mhz

    so is there any reason why THIS game lags ? there is, besides wrapping Textures around models and half baked lousy physics implemention nothing in there, so no need for lag so far ?
    well, i had long hours fun so far, but everything has to come to an end. Time is precious and there are plenty more games out there. I dont waste my time stroking a dead Pet.

    Keep the sun flares inside the game, this may help for the last, big and final, money grab.
     
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  13. Spets Master Engineer

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    3,209
    just in case... there is no hate or disappointing in my part at least, just a little mad because I/We want to this game to git gud
    we probably see so much potential, we probably vision this game in many different ways, and ask why is not this yet in the game, why don't you add this. and then suggestions turn into demands for some people and they get really mad when there is no response. Time passes, and not much changed (bug fixing period) is not like the first days, when we got new stuff every week. If you remember or perhaps if you bought the first version DLC you can clearly see how much this game have changed. well, not changed, I mean, how it has grown in content and features and gameplay mechanics. There are people that say they lost their original vision... I see the game as it was at the beginning, but way better. And I see it can go even further.
     
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  14. Acolyte Apprentice Engineer

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    I don't think the game is a turd, but it might be a tragedy of sorts.

    The tragedy of a company that wanted to make a complex multiplayer physics game, but did not do enough to prevent burning out of its programmer base.

    The tragedy of bugfixers that could not help adding bugs when they were working so hard to remove them.

    The tragedy of a customer focus that asked what the players wanted and found they wanted more than the team could deliver.

    The tragedy of a CEO that just could not abide clean windows in his game.

    I do mind (a bit) that both the survival games I started ended due to bugs or technical issues, but I still plan to do one more some time, with expectations adjusted according to my improved knowledge of the game.

    But I don't mind that the game has been put on a beta track if the company means to "Get this job done by Christmas". The Space Engineers "Soap Opera" is becoming painful to watch and I never did like soaps to begin with. Moving on can be a good thing (and maybe then the game will go full open source :D ).
     
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  15. AutoMcD Senior Engineer

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    2,369
    It's not too late.
    This is us doing our part to prevent it from becoming a tragedy. If we didn't care, we wouldn't spend the time to lay it out like this.
    It might be some tough love to catch this from some of the game's biggest fans but I hope Keen reads this and takes it seriously.
     
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  16. Commander Rotal Master Engineer

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    4,975
    The trouble is it's just going to be read by the peeps like Xocliw who KNOW all of this. But aren't the ones making the decisions.
     
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  17. Sirhan Blixt Apprentice Engineer

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    I just ate breakfast ... world hunger solved!
     
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  18. High Ground Apprentice Engineer

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    The frustration many of us (myself, 5URGE & others) have with this game is we know what the game is capable of doing. Here is a perfect example of what I'm talking about, Tetris, the Dawnstar - Rover, the Dawnstar Train, and the Rubik's Cube all built by Ravric. All of these workshop creations involve using the game mechanics to their fullest potential. Take a project like Tetris it work great for one patch, then the next patch is was broken, and has not worked since. The Dawnstar - Rover worked perfectly, ran like a sports car, then boom, patch day, drives like crap. The Dawnstar Train due to a lot of wheel problems the train wouldn't work right, I know Ravic had been working on a second updated version of the train, the original could only do about 30 m/s the new one could do max speed, but we will most likely never see it because wheels are so unstable.


    When basic core functions of the game do not work as there are supposed to it can make you frustrated. How many time can you be frustrated before you simply walk away? Many in the community took a hiatus, to wait for the game to progress a bit and become more stable. From time to time people will get back into the game for a while only to run into the same frustrating problem they were previously dealing with. And at some point you've had enough frustration and simply walk away. And after 3+ Years many in the community (not all) have had enough frustration and are moving on. And I think the game will be the worse for it, because these were some of the members were the games most vocal supporters.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2017
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  19. LFCavalcanti Senior Engineer

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    1,378
    Oh boy...

    Why are you people still fighting? I mean, I was one of the most PITA players complaining about blatant lack of management and testing... even I already gave up on this game.

    It's horrible optimized, I don't see it becoming much better than it already is, fixing bugs yeah... but everyone's expectation are way above what KSH will really do here.

    Marek only wants to play with his AI, then you have developers with two games(no... don't even try the BS about split teams), with ever ending funding. That's the reality, we will never have 40+ people on a server playing with stable performance running with mid-tier hardware on our potatoes.
     
  20. Dwarf-Lord Pangolin Senior Engineer

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    2,597
    Longstanding bugs with merge blocks and timers were frustrating, but bugs are expected, though the lack of communication and a response made it worse. What set things off was the welders; that wasn't a bug, but an intentional "balance change." It worried a lot of people because it demonstrates a lack of understanding of how the game can feasibly be played. Deliberate changes like that shouldn't be happening in beta after three years of early access feedback. That's a huge red flag.
     
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  21. halipatsui Senior Engineer

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    1,253
    It will fly in SE too!
    Not only that but you can prevent the explosion by WELDING a FUEL TANK :woot:
     
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  22. sacksquatch Trainee Engineer

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    50
    Then Xoc needs to get dramatic like a movie - print out this thread, kick open an office door, slam the papers on the desk, and then slam a head into the papers. Then like Samuel L Jackson say "Read mofo READ!"

    Naw son, I play with thruster damage enabled :) It's the only way to keep me honest and not bury thrusters under two layers of armor.
     
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  23. Forcedminer Senior Engineer

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    2,225
    well that was a disappointing update. :/
    glad im not the only one that disliked it by the looks of the numbers.

    i acutally miss the phase. "bug fixes and improvements" at this stage........


    I kinda hope they do something to fix batteries since most new players will pick that plantary respawn lander..try to land...run out of power die and see a big respawn timer pick the escape pod buzz around space a while...wonder how to make new parts....learn that hard way 3 or so hours later they can't...

    huh....first time a games made me feel this level of sorrow.
    Starbound only ever came this close when they added that new toolbar.....
     
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  24. AutoMcD Senior Engineer

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    2,369
    well, them deciding to hold off on the HUD release to bake it some more is not a bad thing in my opinion. That kinda goes in line with some of what has been said here.
     
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  25. Ronin1973 Master Engineer

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    4,801
    I hope Keen takes this approach with every release from this point. If it ain't right, it ain't ready. Thursdays have always been an artificial deadline.
     
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  26. Dresdin Trainee Engineer

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    19
    It's.. not great seeing people going through what many of us knew would be the current state of SE, even as far back as late 2014.

    We saw the state Miner wars ended in and how Keen handled it. We saw the beginnings of feature bloat and disregard for multiplayer* (*which lets be honest, is why 90% of us bought the game back in april 2014 when multi came out). If you guys think you got shouted down hard, imagine the rabid fanboyism of 2014 ahaha...

    Short of taking a few months/half a year off updates to completely focus on a rework for Multiplayer from the ground up (unlikely and possibly impossible). This current state of SE is more than likely going to be the end state of SE.

    On the upside I think people can see the demand for what SE was supposed to be. It's only a matter of time before a group creates that in a more professional way. Monthly subscriptions with dedicated in house servers (subscription based is important to maintain server farms), focus on multiplayer stability above all else. No silly Thursday release gimmick that does more harm than good, newtonian physics, etc. Fingers crossed.
     
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  27. Forcedminer Senior Engineer

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    I was happy they let us know.......but i was kind of hoping there'd be some news regarding the various bugs players have reported over and over.
    the weilder, the battery,landing gears,crosshairs misaligned,wolfs using engineer shaped hitboxes,wheels breaking extremely slowly,wheels jerking left and right.

    but instead week number 2 we get a feature that i'd say 90% of players won't ever use.
    like lets be honest only youtubers are really going to be using that feature......
    this Cutscene editor most likely is awesome..................................
     
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  28. Malware Master Engineer

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    The actual update branch had more bug fixes. What we got was a quick reschedule because the HUD was deemed not ready. As far as I'm concerned I would have happily accepted no update at all, but they decided to release something. This update was a placeholder and should be treated as such.

    And no, the cutscene editor is not for the youtubers, it's for the scenario makers. And it's for Keen's own scenarios, which people for some reason have been clamoring for. While I really enjoyed the tutorial scenario, it's not exactly my cup of tea. But it's been asked for a lot.
     
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  29. Llessur Apprentice Engineer

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    The issue I have with this being a placeholder is why in gods name where they working on THIS to begin with? I doubt they got it done within a day or even a week and while I have seen people ask for campaigns or ANYTHING really to fill the gameplay void I have never seen anyone request Keen to add cutscenes...
     
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  30. Malware Master Engineer

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    It's also done by one guy afaik. Everybody can't be working on the same thing, that'd be a mess. And people who has not been working on certain bugged aspects would also be a poor choice for fixing said bugs. It's not like every programmer is capable of working on every aspect of the given software. That's an unrealistic expectation :) The software I work on for my dayjob is infinitely less complicated than Space Engineers, but everyone can't work on every aspect of that either. And we only have senior programmers on our team.
     
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